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Congestion Pricing in NYC

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Old 08-04-08, 10:54 AM
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pm124
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Congestion Pricing in NYC

Hi all--

Check out this blog post. http://stopsheldonsilver.blogspot.com/

Sheldon Silver, the guy who killed congestion pricing in New York City, will be walking Chinatown today at 6PM. Come let him know how you feel about what he did to congestion pricing in New York city!
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Old 08-04-08, 10:57 AM
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i was disappointed when the congestion bill was shot down
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Old 08-04-08, 11:33 AM
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I sincerely hope something can be done to reverse this travesty. When is NYC gonna pull it's collective head out of it's collective ass? So many would benefit from the reduction of cars, traffic, pollution, etc. Also, what is MTA gonna do with the subway situation? $900 million in debt? Cripes. WTF is happening when the greatest city in the U.S. can't even support and protect it's commuters and pedestrians? Cycling aside, this would benefit every single pair of lungs and every park/tree/shrub in the city. Sheesh..
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Old 08-04-08, 11:36 AM
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wow **** that guy


somebody stab him and collapse one of his lungs so he can know what it's like for people who rely more on the quality of the air they breathe
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Old 08-04-08, 12:17 PM
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I hope you aren't serious because that comment is really disturbing.

I for one was very glad that the congestion plan didn't go through. Not because I don't want cleaner air in NYC, nor do I enjoy the traffic congestion, but because the plan was seriously flawed. It caused more bad than good and it didn't take into account all the people who HAVE to drive into work because they have no other option. There are plenty of other actions that can be taken to reduce congestion and improve the cities transportation system. I personally drive in to work quite often and my situation isn't as bad as people living in the outer borough or even out of the city. Still, taking the train or the subway is extremely inconvenient for me and my wife and I get to work and back home faster than the transit system. I would prefer taking the subway but it's too inconvenient and too unreliable to use.

The bus and subway systems in this city are an absolute joke. Start there. I heard on the news the other night that the MTA is planning installing seats in subway cars that fold up during rush hour. Excellent idea you morons! Make the subway even less desirable. Instead of increasing and improve the service, they are going to cram us all in there like cattle.

I have asthma and I would be ALL for a plan that would improve the air quality in the city. Instead of crying about the plan getting rejected, Bloomberg should sit down and really come up with a plan that makes sense and wouldn't alienate millions of commuters.

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Old 08-04-08, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by drainyoo View Post
I personally drive in to work quite often and my situation isn't as bad as people living in the outer borough or even out of the city.
therein lies the problem.
you don't have to drive into work, but you do. as a result, the guy who just got stabbed for his wallet has to wait for all the bridge and tunnel traffic before his ambulance can get to him (among the many, many other things).
if you think it doesn't work, look at london. fact is, if you live in the city, you don't need to commute by car. if you don't, drive to a train and take it in.
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Old 08-04-08, 12:25 PM
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i really wish the tube in london was 24/7
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Old 08-04-08, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by sp00ki View Post
therein lies the problem.
you don't have to drive into work, but you do. as a result, the guy who just got stabbed for his wallet has to wait for all the bridge and tunnel traffic before his ambulance can get to him (among the many, many other things).
if you think it doesn't work, look at london. fact is, if you live in the city, you don't need to commute by car. if you don't, drive to a train and take it in.
That's not true at all. If you live in Manhattan or right near a subway station, than I totally agree with you, but a majority of population isn't so fortunate. Know anyone that lives in Staten Island or Douglaston? I do and taking the transit system is pretty much not an option for them.

Cabs are responsible for a MAJORITY of the congestion in the city. There has to be at least 3-4 cabs for every car. If our subway system is so amazing, then why do we need so many cabs? Reduce the number of cabs and immediately reduce congestion.

As for your ambulance comment, that is an issue. I'm not saying that we have to be allowed to drive into the city. I would be the first one in line to support a congestion plan that really works and really reduces congestion and pollution. The plan that was rejected was not that plan. That plan was put in motion for one thing, to make money. Charging delivery trucks who HAVE TO BE IN THE CITY, was one indication of that intent of that plan. Plus, like I'v mentioned, for a plan like that to work, you need a transit system that HAS to be reliable and convenient. Before any type of plan is put in place, the MTA needs to greatly improve the trains and buses. It currently can't handle the daily commuters, imagine how insane it would be if you add a few million people who use to drive and are now forced to take the subway. It would be a nightmare and the current system would just collapse.
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Old 08-04-08, 12:45 PM
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ok so my comment was a little bit extreme


as a child I suffered from athsma that was exacerbated by poor air condition that on hot summer days I couldn't go outside with my friends, even to places like the pool.


I think it's a great idea, although not fool proof, and should not have been shut down.
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Old 08-04-08, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by drainyoo View Post
That's not true at all. If you live in Manhattan or right near a subway station, than I totally agree with you, but a majority of population isn't so fortunate. Know anyone that lives in Staten Island or Douglaston? I do and taking the transit system is pretty much not an option for them.

Cabs are responsible for a MAJORITY of the congestion in the city. There has to be at least 3-4 cabs for every car. If our subway system is so amazing, then why do we need so many cabs? Reduce the number of cabs and immediately reduce congestion.

As for your ambulance comment, that is an issue. I'm not saying that we have to be allowed to drive into the city. I would be the first one in line to support a congestion plan that really works and really reduces congestion and pollution. The plan that was rejected was not that plan. That plan was put in motion for one thing, to make money. Charging delivery trucks who HAVE TO BE IN THE CITY, was one indication of that intent of that plan. Plus, like I'v mentioned, for a plan like that to work, you need a transit system that HAS to be reliable and convenient. Before any type of plan is put in place, the MTA needs to greatly improve the trains and buses. It currently can't handle the daily commuters, imagine how insane it would be if you add a few million people who use to drive and are now forced to take the subway. It would be a nightmare and the current system would just collapse.

i wasn't aware of inconsistencies in the system... i haven't lived in ny (bronx) for ~15 years, but when i did i took the subway to manhattan quite often and don't recall issues. i guess the L (at least in the past few years of using it) can take some time between trains, but compared to philadelphia's transit everything i've ever seen is dependable...

maybe yr just spoiled.

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Old 08-04-08, 12:59 PM
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Old 08-04-08, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by drainyoo View Post
That's not true at all. If you live in Manhattan or right near a subway station, than I totally agree with you, but a majority of population isn't so fortunate. Know anyone that lives in Staten Island or Douglaston? I do and taking the transit system is pretty much not an option for them.
Staten Islanders have the ferry to take them to Manhattan, and Douglaston has a LIRR station. What's your point?

What is it about the plan that you feel is so unfair?
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Old 08-04-08, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by sp00ki View Post
therein lies the problem.
you don't have to drive into work, but you do. as a result, the guy who just got stabbed for his wallet has to wait for all the bridge and tunnel traffic before his ambulance can get to him (among the many, many other things).
if you think it doesn't work, look at london. fact is, if you live in the city, you don't need to commute by car. if you don't, drive to a train and take it in.
this is the part i don't know much about, and gives me pause about the whole thing. if the end result is to just displace cars into other areas of the city, then it hasn't really accomplished much. is having a bunch of people drive through queens\brooklyn\bronx looking for parking so they can take a train into the city really solving anything?
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Old 08-04-08, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by drainyoo View Post
That's not true at all. If you live in Manhattan or right near a subway station, than I totally agree with you, but a majority of population isn't so fortunate. Know anyone that lives in Staten Island or Douglaston? I do and taking the transit system is pretty much not an option for them.
Staten Island does have rail and bus service to the Staten Island Ferry. And doesn't the LIRR still stop in Douglaston? And bus service is available to connect with the 7 (Flushing) line at Main Street.

Originally Posted by drainyoo View Post
Cabs are responsible for a MAJORITY of the congestion in the city. There has to be at least 3-4 cabs for every car. If our subway system is so amazing, then why do we need so many cabs? Reduce the number of cabs and immediately reduce congestion.
There are approximately 11,700 taxi medallions. This number is fixed by law, and has remained unchanged for decades, so increasing congestion cannot be blamed upon taxicabs. There are not three or four cabs for every car. That is simply not possible. Your own assertion below that there are "a few million people" who drive into the city rather than take mass transit proves the impossibility of taxis being much of a factor in congestion.

In addition to medallion cabs, there are car services that operate mostly in the four boroughs other than Manhattan, which are outside the scope of any proposed congestion pricing plan.

There are also "black cars," which serve mostly corporate customers. There are approximately 11,000 black cars. Again, the numbers cannot possibly add up to "a MAJORITY of the congestion in the city."

Originally Posted by drainyoo View Post
As for your ambulance comment, that is an issue. I'm not saying that we have to be allowed to drive into the city. I would be the first one in line to support a congestion plan that really works and really reduces congestion and pollution. The plan that was rejected was not that plan. That plan was put in motion for one thing, to make money. Charging delivery trucks who HAVE TO BE IN THE CITY, was one indication of that intent of that plan. Plus, like I'v mentioned, for a plan like that to work, you need a transit system that HAS to be reliable and convenient. Before any type of plan is put in place, the MTA needs to greatly improve the trains and buses. It currently can't handle the daily commuters, imagine how insane it would be if you add a few million people who use to drive and are now forced to take the subway. It would be a nightmare and the current system would just collapse.
Agreed that our mass transit systems must be considerably improved, and their capacity increased. But part of doing that will have to be to create a disincentive to drive into Manhattan. Increased demand for mass transit will bring additional revenues into the system (in addition to revenues raised by congestion pricing) and a larger constituency demanding improvements.
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Old 08-04-08, 01:44 PM
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I'd be interested in this if i thought it was anything but a revenue generating project for the city. It also ****s those service workers and small business owners who live outside the city.

oh yea, and I think we have enough cameras in this city. kthxby.
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Old 08-04-08, 01:46 PM
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the MTA is having enough trouble meeting demand as it is, let alone running with a crazy deficit and talking about another rate increase. (For what the 3rd time in 3 years?)
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Old 08-04-08, 02:00 PM
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Had we passed the CP bill AS MOST PEOPLE IN THE CITY WANTED before Sheldon Silver killed it, we would have netted $500mil from the feds to improve transit. That's a pretty huge opportunity flushed to suck up to outer borough/suburban constituencies.
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Old 08-04-08, 02:02 PM
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The MTA is a ****ing joke. Service has been going downhill since the 90's, what with all the line changes and supposed weekend construction work.
And don't even get me started on metrocards, who was the ****ing genius who designed that?! If the designer had enough sense to design a system where the card is taken by the machine after it's use, we'd probably save money on reprinting metrocards or having sanitation sweep up all the used metrocards littered about. Damn, mofukka could've at lease looked at the PATH system!
And speaking of Jersey, for the love of pete, build a ****in bridge from Jersey City to lower Manhattan or open up the tunnel traffic to pedestrian and bikes (although air quality in there might be an issue).
There's so many things NYC could do to recoup that debt, but they do nothing.
Here's a hint NYC, ticket those d-bags that "block the box", ticket double parkers that could easily pull into a spot temporarily but don't, ticket those people that block the bike lane, etc.
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Old 08-04-08, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by timmhaan View Post
this is the part i don't know much about, and gives me pause about the whole thing. if the end result is to just displace cars into other areas of the city, then it hasn't really accomplished much. is having a bunch of people drive through queens\brooklyn\bronx looking for parking so they can take a train into the city really solving anything?
It's a partial solution. Those people aren't driving as far as they would have if they'd continued all the way into Manhattan. They aren't bringing their cars into Manhattan, which is where the worst of the congestion is, so it would in fact reduce congestion in Manhattan. It wouldn't add any cars to the traffic in the other boroughs, so it wouldn't make anything worse. And as far as infrastructure improvements go, municipal parking lots are relatively quick and cheap.
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Old 08-04-08, 02:16 PM
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How much is a monthly parking spot in mid-town Manhattan? What is the day rate?

Just curious what demographic this truly effects. I cannot imagine driving to work.

What people forget about the London system is they increased the number of buses-- I have no idea about the trains. I have no clue what they did with taxis. The compliance system is a bit odd--- they use surveillance cameras to catch offenders, and people usually pay via SMS. I'm guessing there is quite a bit of infrastructure involved with monitoring compliance.

Again, the PARKING issue serves as its own "congestion tax."
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Old 08-04-08, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Saintly Loser View Post
It's a partial solution. Those people aren't driving as far as they would have if they'd continued all the way into Manhattan. They aren't bringing their cars into Manhattan, which is where the worst of the congestion is, so it would in fact reduce congestion in Manhattan. It wouldn't add any cars to the traffic in the other boroughs, so it wouldn't make anything worse. And as far as infrastructure improvements go, municipal parking lots are relatively quick and cheap.
a lot of congestion comes simply from people circling blocks to look for parking. with CP, i think there would be an incentive for these people to drive to other neighborhoods, find parking, and take the train into manhattan. that would mean that communities with train service close to manhattan could see a large influx of automobile traffic, of which they might not be able to support (i.e. not as many parking garages, on street parking, large avenues to move traffic, etc.)

i could be wrong, of course, but i just think this would put the problem onto other communities.
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Old 08-04-08, 02:38 PM
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you're missing a basic principle: instead of EVERYONE looking for parking in the city, those from hoboken would park in hoboken, those from queens would park in queens, those from ____ would park in ____.
i don't think that's "putting" the problem into other communities as much as it is keeping the problem from being put where it shouldn't be.
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Old 08-04-08, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by timmhaan View Post
a lot of congestion comes simply from people circling blocks to look for parking. with CP, i think there would be an incentive for these people to drive to other neighborhoods, find parking, and take the train into manhattan. that would mean that communities with train service close to manhattan could see a large influx of automobile traffic, of which they might not be able to support (i.e. not as many parking garages, on street parking, large avenues to move traffic, etc.)

i could be wrong, of course, but i just think this would put the problem onto other communities.
It would certainly create more demand for parking near the ends of subway lines, probably mostly in Flushing and Jamaica in Queens, and maybe around Ditmars Boulevard in Astoria. I'm not so sure about Brooklyn, although some Long Island commuters might drive to the Belt Parkway and seek parking somewhere near the ends of subway lines there.

But I do think that municipal parking lots and garages are simple and cheap compared to other infrastructure projects (new bridges and tunnels, new subway lines). If there were to be more off-street parking available, it could help. It would be just a part of a comprehensive traffic-abatement program, of course, but it could be a valuable part. It's worth looking at, anyway.
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Old 08-04-08, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by sp00ki View Post
you're missing a basic principle: instead of EVERYONE looking for parking in the city, those from hoboken would park in hoboken, those from queens would park in queens, those from ____ would park in ____.
i don't think that's "putting" the problem into other communities as much as it is keeping the problem from being put where it shouldn't be.

I think the big problem would be in Queens. It's not so much those people who live in Queens, it's all the Long Island commuters from Nassau and Suffolk (and there are lots of them) who would drive to a point in Queens at which they could catch a subway into Manhattan. And they'd look for parking there, rather than driving all the way into Manhattan. It is, to some extent, transferring the parking problem from Manhattan to Queens. That's why I said that more municipal parking garages and lots would have to be part of a traffic-abatement program.

What happens in New Jersey is outside the scope of this discussion, I think, because neither the state legislature or the city government can do anything about it.
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Old 08-04-08, 02:48 PM
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maybe you guys are right. all i know is that if i lived far enough away where public transit wasn't an option for me (and i couldn't afford to drive into manhattan anymore), i would drive to astoria, brooklyn heights, wiliamsburg, find parking and then hop on the train from there. i figure if i'd thought of that, then thousands of other drivers probably have too.

but maybe the number of people not driving at all would offset that? i'm really not sure about this and i didn't really see it as part of the overall discussion with the plan. i just don't know.
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