anyone riding a proper singlespeed/fixie...
04-07-09, 09:04 AM
#51
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OP-just post some pics, so everyone can get their tits out of the wringer
04-07-09, 09:12 AM
#52
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in an attempt at a serious answer to this question i will say the following:
any SS/fixed gear bike will exibit the same amount of chainwear given that the chainline is perfectly straight case for case, and the tension is kept relatively constant. doesnt matter what dropouts are used. chainwear will be significantly less than with a geared bike which almost never has a straight chainline.
all chains come factory lubed, and according to sheldon, this is the best they will EVER be lubricated, so it is entirely possible to run a chain without adding suplimental lubrication for many miles, depending on the environment. i have a good friend with a SS, who knows nothing of bicycle maint. and his chain is doing fine.
if improperly applied, ie: overapplied, improper chain lube will lead to excessive wear as dirt and road grime is attracted to the chain, no question there.
Also, there can be no question that properly applied lube, of the correct type, when the chain is externally wiped to rid the excess lube will last longer than a chain that is not lubricated at all. thats a simple materials issue, any metal-to-metal contact will have less wear with lubrication, period.
any SS/fixed gear bike will exibit the same amount of chainwear given that the chainline is perfectly straight case for case, and the tension is kept relatively constant. doesnt matter what dropouts are used. chainwear will be significantly less than with a geared bike which almost never has a straight chainline.
all chains come factory lubed, and according to sheldon, this is the best they will EVER be lubricated, so it is entirely possible to run a chain without adding suplimental lubrication for many miles, depending on the environment. i have a good friend with a SS, who knows nothing of bicycle maint. and his chain is doing fine.
if improperly applied, ie: overapplied, improper chain lube will lead to excessive wear as dirt and road grime is attracted to the chain, no question there.
Also, there can be no question that properly applied lube, of the correct type, when the chain is externally wiped to rid the excess lube will last longer than a chain that is not lubricated at all. thats a simple materials issue, any metal-to-metal contact will have less wear with lubrication, period.
1. Do different dropout types differ in their ability to keep the chain tension constant and the chain straight as chain stretch progresses? For example, one can imagine that a badly stretched chain might want to buck off in all sorts of directions. Perhaps a strong tug nut can keep it in place whereas a QR might flex or slip or a spring loaded tensioner might yield. In practice when will these different setups perform the same and when won't they? For example, a magic ratio setup should work fine on a new chain, but as the chain wears there is a world of difference between it and fork ends.
2. Do idlers and pulleys create more external chain friction and, thus, actually require more lubrication than just inside the rollers? Does this give the impression that the internal roller lubrication needs to be replenished much more than it really does? Could dipping a chain in hot wax fill the rollers with enough internal lubrication for the lifetime of the chain?
3. Which is a greater factor in chain life, a straight chainline or lubrication? Bear in mind that some configurations may be better able to cope with wear than others, so even if an unlubed straight chainline wears faster it may still have a greater chain life if that wear does not adversely affect performance.
In the end I just want to know what kind of configurations I can keep using my current no-lube regimen. I'm positive it wouldn't work with a derailleur, pretty sure it wouldn't work with a spring loaded tensioner on vertical dropouts, but I'm not so sure about horizontal dropouts and I don't think it would work with a magic ratio at all.
This thread is downright bizarre. The OP is adamant that this works, but having handled chains after soaking them in degreaser and letting them dry (ie a completely bone dry chain with no grit or lube inside of it) I can say for sure that the chain is far stiffer than when it is lubricated.
1. Does the stiff feeling chain actually impact efficiency in any real way or is it just the way it feels?
2. Maybe the chain internals are rusting before they finish drying. Would putting the chain in a hot oven to evaporate the water faster prevent it from getting stiff?
3. Would dipping in hot wax dry them even faster by instantly forcing out all water?
What I did was put my chain through a couple rounds of degreaser and rinsing with water in a soda bottle and then dropped the chain in hot wax. Lots of bubbling. Took the chain out and rode every day for two years without touching it. I wonder if the main benefit of the wax was to force out the water, to lubricate, or if it didn't really provide any benefit at all.
Last edited by makeinu; 04-07-09 at 09:24 AM.
04-07-09, 09:15 AM
#53
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It seems as though the OP didn't get the answer they wanted in another forum, either:
https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-mechanics/498031-why-oil-chain.html
Also, this thread seems to be on par with some of their other posts: https://www.bikeforums.net/folding-bikes/524435-large-wheels-pointless.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-mechanics/498031-why-oil-chain.html
Also, this thread seems to be on par with some of their other posts: https://www.bikeforums.net/folding-bikes/524435-large-wheels-pointless.html
04-07-09, 09:21 AM
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how about you explain why no lubrication on a properly tensioned roller chain would not be detrimental to the life of the chain.
a roller chain, going around a bicycle chainring, encounters both sliding and static frictional forces, you are correct in saying that the static friction between two surfaces does not need to be lubricated, but you are neglecting the sliding friction which is occuring inside the chain links, this is where lubrication is necessary, there is also sliding friction inbetween the faceplates and the sides of the cog/chainring teeth, as was shown previously in a picture, this area is subject to wear without proper lubrication.
therefore, not lubricating a chain will increase the wear to the parts which encounter sliding friction, which are the pins, bushings, inside of the rollers, and inside of the faceplates, also the sides of the chainring and cog teeth. This is all assuming that you have very good tolerances on the manufacturing and assembly of the chainring and crank, which are often not perfectly concentric.
now please, defend your point of view
a roller chain, going around a bicycle chainring, encounters both sliding and static frictional forces, you are correct in saying that the static friction between two surfaces does not need to be lubricated, but you are neglecting the sliding friction which is occuring inside the chain links, this is where lubrication is necessary, there is also sliding friction inbetween the faceplates and the sides of the cog/chainring teeth, as was shown previously in a picture, this area is subject to wear without proper lubrication.
therefore, not lubricating a chain will increase the wear to the parts which encounter sliding friction, which are the pins, bushings, inside of the rollers, and inside of the faceplates, also the sides of the chainring and cog teeth. This is all assuming that you have very good tolerances on the manufacturing and assembly of the chainring and crank, which are often not perfectly concentric.
now please, defend your point of view
All I can say is that clearly train tracks also experience sliding friction with wheels due to nonidealities, but since lubrication is not absolutely necessary other factors win out.
Ok. Let me see if I can borrow a camera.
Last edited by makeinu; 04-07-09 at 09:33 AM.
04-07-09, 09:32 AM
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its as simple as this, without lubrication between two surfaces which move in relation to eachother, the rate of wear will increase.
without lubricating your chain, it will wear faster. period. the parts in the drivetrain which encounter sliding frictional forces will have increased wear.
you mention using tugnuts to keep your chain properly tensioned, the reason the the chain needs to be tensioned isnt necessarily the axle sliding, its probably the chain "stretch" which is from wear on the parts of the chain. this happens to all chains, but without lubrication the effect will be accelerated.
the reason your drivetrain still works, is because it is relatively simple, theres no shifting and everything is in line, it doesnt mean that the parts on it are not damaged. damaged parts can still work, it doesnt mean its a good idea.
without lubricating your chain, it will wear faster. period. the parts in the drivetrain which encounter sliding frictional forces will have increased wear.
you mention using tugnuts to keep your chain properly tensioned, the reason the the chain needs to be tensioned isnt necessarily the axle sliding, its probably the chain "stretch" which is from wear on the parts of the chain. this happens to all chains, but without lubrication the effect will be accelerated.
the reason your drivetrain still works, is because it is relatively simple, theres no shifting and everything is in line, it doesnt mean that the parts on it are not damaged. damaged parts can still work, it doesnt mean its a good idea.
04-07-09, 09:35 AM
#56
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its as simple as this, without lubrication between two surfaces which move in relation to eachother, the rate of wear will increase.
without lubricating your chain, it will wear faster. period. the parts in the drivetrain which encounter sliding frictional forces will have increased wear.
you mention using tugnuts to keep your chain properly tensioned, the reason the the chain needs to be tensioned isnt necessarily the axle sliding, its probably the chain "stretch" which is from wear on the parts of the chain. this happens to all chains, but without lubrication the effect will be accelerated.
the reason your drivetrain still works, is because it is relatively simple, theres no shifting and everything is in line, it doesnt mean that the parts on it are not damaged. damaged parts can still work, it doesnt mean its a good idea.
without lubricating your chain, it will wear faster. period. the parts in the drivetrain which encounter sliding frictional forces will have increased wear.
you mention using tugnuts to keep your chain properly tensioned, the reason the the chain needs to be tensioned isnt necessarily the axle sliding, its probably the chain "stretch" which is from wear on the parts of the chain. this happens to all chains, but without lubrication the effect will be accelerated.
the reason your drivetrain still works, is because it is relatively simple, theres no shifting and everything is in line, it doesnt mean that the parts on it are not damaged. damaged parts can still work, it doesnt mean its a good idea.
04-07-09, 09:38 AM
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He is an electrical engineer, after all.
04-07-09, 09:45 AM
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its as simple as this, without lubrication between two surfaces which move in relation to eachother, the rate of wear will increase.
without lubricating your chain, it will wear faster. period. the parts in the drivetrain which encounter sliding frictional forces will have increased wear.
you mention using tugnuts to keep your chain properly tensioned, the reason the the chain needs to be tensioned isnt necessarily the axle sliding, its probably the chain "stretch" which is from wear on the parts of the chain. this happens to all chains, but without lubrication the effect will be accelerated.
the reason your drivetrain still works, is because it is relatively simple, theres no shifting and everything is in line, it doesnt mean that the parts on it are not damaged. damaged parts can still work, it doesnt mean its a good idea.
without lubricating your chain, it will wear faster. period. the parts in the drivetrain which encounter sliding frictional forces will have increased wear.
you mention using tugnuts to keep your chain properly tensioned, the reason the the chain needs to be tensioned isnt necessarily the axle sliding, its probably the chain "stretch" which is from wear on the parts of the chain. this happens to all chains, but without lubrication the effect will be accelerated.
the reason your drivetrain still works, is because it is relatively simple, theres no shifting and everything is in line, it doesnt mean that the parts on it are not damaged. damaged parts can still work, it doesnt mean its a good idea.
No doubt everything above is true and the drivetrain would last longer with a moderate amount of oil, but a straight, properly tensioned, 1/8" chain lasts so long that it's a bad tradeoff. Supply and demand. I got long lasting already and I lack low maintenance and cleanliness, so it doesn't make any sense to improve the lifespan at the expense of additional maintenance and reduced cleanliness and if other configurations require me to do so then they are bad tradeoffs too.
04-07-09, 09:50 AM
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who said anything about derailleurs? bikes with deraileurs dont use 1/8 inch chains either.
if you take two identical fixed gear bikes, and run one with a lubricated chain, and one without, the lubricated chain will last longer and be smoother. chains have bearing surfaces in them, and if you want to pick up a book on tribology, im sure you will see that bearing surfaces should be lubricated for longevity and function.
granted, the bearing in the chain is not the same as the bearing in the BB or hubs, but without proper maintenance, they will wear faster.
if you dont want to lube your chain...thats fine...just dont say that a chain does not need to be lubed..its just not true
if you take two identical fixed gear bikes, and run one with a lubricated chain, and one without, the lubricated chain will last longer and be smoother. chains have bearing surfaces in them, and if you want to pick up a book on tribology, im sure you will see that bearing surfaces should be lubricated for longevity and function.
granted, the bearing in the chain is not the same as the bearing in the BB or hubs, but without proper maintenance, they will wear faster.
if you dont want to lube your chain...thats fine...just dont say that a chain does not need to be lubed..its just not true
04-07-09, 10:45 AM
#60
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op is a frikkin maroon
04-07-09, 10:48 AM
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who said anything about derailleurs? bikes with deraileurs dont use 1/8 inch chains either.
if you take two identical fixed gear bikes, and run one with a lubricated chain, and one without, the lubricated chain will last longer and be smoother. chains have bearing surfaces in them, and if you want to pick up a book on tribology, im sure you will see that bearing surfaces should be lubricated for longevity and function.
granted, the bearing in the chain is not the same as the bearing in the BB or hubs, but without proper maintenance, they will wear faster.
if you dont want to lube your chain...thats fine...just dont say that a chain does not need to be lubed..its just not true
if you take two identical fixed gear bikes, and run one with a lubricated chain, and one without, the lubricated chain will last longer and be smoother. chains have bearing surfaces in them, and if you want to pick up a book on tribology, im sure you will see that bearing surfaces should be lubricated for longevity and function.
granted, the bearing in the chain is not the same as the bearing in the BB or hubs, but without proper maintenance, they will wear faster.
if you dont want to lube your chain...thats fine...just dont say that a chain does not need to be lubed..its just not true
But that isn't what I'm here to talk about. I'm here to ask the following question:
If the chain should not be lubed under the cost structure of a particular individual and drive train configuration, then for which other configurations will it also be true? IE, I know my bikes with fork ends and tug nuts serve me better without being lubed, so can I safely say that the same will be true of horizontal dropout configurations, vertical dropouts with spring loaded tensioners, etc?
04-07-09, 10:51 AM
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sometimes i go fast
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youre still talkin??
04-07-09, 11:46 AM
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hey makeinu. why dont you email leonard zinn at veloqna@comcast.net for his technical Q&A in Velonews with your question? I'm sure he'll tell you exactly what everyone here is saying, but perhaps you'd be less resistant to his response. And if and when he responds, please post what he says.
But if everyone cannot wait for his answer, let me paraphrase his likely response: "lube your chain."
But if everyone cannot wait for his answer, let me paraphrase his likely response: "lube your chain."
04-07-09, 11:52 AM
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Geordi!!!
04-07-09, 01:44 PM
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Time is an irrelevant measure of wear-cycle without knowing the mileage. Riding every day for a half mile to go do trackstands in front of Starbucks isn't going to put excessive wear on the drivetrain, oiled or not.
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04-07-09, 02:39 PM
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If the chain should not be lubed under the cost structure of a particular individual and drive train configuration, then for which other configurations will it also be true? IE, I know my bikes with fork ends and tug nuts serve me better without being lubed, so can I safely say that the same will be true of horizontal dropout configurations, vertical dropouts with spring loaded tensioners, etc?
-guy on the internet
04-07-09, 03:23 PM
#67
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Dropout configuration and presence or absence of chaintugs have no direct bearing on chain wear, drive train efficiency or chain lubing. The OP apparently doesn't understand how to install a wheel or even fully comprehend the benefits of a derailleur or even the basic phenomenon of DT wear, how to measure it, or the consequences to the DT of using a worn chain. OP's confusion and cluelessness are evident throughout. There's no reason to believe that anything he claims is reliable or accurate. Conclusion....This thread is a waste of cyberspace. OP is an idiot, a troll, or both, with pathologically low levels of common sense.
Last edited by mihlbach; 04-07-09 at 03:35 PM.
04-07-09, 03:29 PM
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/also an engineer. No, really... I am. I swear.
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04-07-09, 03:33 PM
#69
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damn. i cant believe you guys are falling for this...
OP is epic WIN TROLL.
OP is epic WIN TROLL.
04-07-09, 03:33 PM
#70
don't be so angry
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i can't believe this guy is still around I stopped following close about a year ago and he was floatin turds then too
04-07-09, 03:36 PM
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I wonder if this 2-year old, unoiled, magical uber-chain was installed with similar precision engineering?
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04-07-09, 04:35 PM
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ignoring the morons
Wow, just wow. 20 posts later and they're almost all trolls. Now if you trolls would go away then perhaps we could get back to our discussion (repeated below for clarity):
Finally we are getting somewhere. I agree with pretty much everything said here, but my question's are:
1. Do different dropout types differ in their ability to keep the chain tension constant and the chain straight as chain stretch progresses? For example, one can imagine that a badly stretched chain might want to buck off in all sorts of directions. Perhaps a strong tug nut can keep it in place whereas a QR might flex or slip or a spring loaded tensioner might yield. In practice when will these different setups perform the same and when won't they? For example, a magic ratio setup should work fine on a new chain, but as the chain wears there is a world of difference between it and fork ends.
2. Do idlers and pulleys create more external chain friction and, thus, actually require more lubrication than just inside the rollers? Does this give the impression that the internal roller lubrication needs to be replenished much more than it really does? Could dipping a chain in hot wax fill the rollers with enough internal lubrication for the lifetime of the chain?
3. Which is a greater factor in chain life, a straight chainline or lubrication? Bear in mind that some configurations may be better able to cope with wear than others, so even if an unlubed straight chainline wears faster it may still have a greater chain life if that wear does not adversely affect performance.
In the end I just want to know what kind of configurations I can keep using my current no-lube regimen. I'm positive it wouldn't work with a derailleur, pretty sure it wouldn't work with a spring loaded tensioner on vertical dropouts, but I'm not so sure about horizontal dropouts and I don't think it would work with a magic ratio at all.
Ok. A few questions:
1. Does the stiff feeling chain actually impact efficiency in any real way or is it just the way it feels?
2. Maybe the chain internals are rusting before they finish drying. Would putting the chain in a hot oven to evaporate the water faster prevent it from getting stiff?
3. Would dipping in hot wax dry them even faster by instantly forcing out all water?
What I did was put my chain through a couple rounds of degreaser and rinsing with water in a soda bottle and then dropped the chain in hot wax. Lots of bubbling. Took the chain out and rode every day for two years without touching it. I wonder if the main benefit of the wax was to force out the water, to lubricate, or if it didn't really provide any benefit at all.
in an attempt at a serious answer to this question i will say the following:
any SS/fixed gear bike will exibit the same amount of chainwear given that the chainline is perfectly straight case for case, and the tension is kept relatively constant. doesnt matter what dropouts are used. chainwear will be significantly less than with a geared bike which almost never has a straight chainline.
all chains come factory lubed, and according to sheldon, this is the best they will EVER be lubricated, so it is entirely possible to run a chain without adding suplimental lubrication for many miles, depending on the environment. i have a good friend with a SS, who knows nothing of bicycle maint. and his chain is doing fine.
if improperly applied, ie: overapplied, improper chain lube will lead to excessive wear as dirt and road grime is attracted to the chain, no question there.
Also, there can be no question that properly applied lube, of the correct type, when the chain is externally wiped to rid the excess lube will last longer than a chain that is not lubricated at all. thats a simple materials issue, any metal-to-metal contact will have less wear with lubrication, period.
any SS/fixed gear bike will exibit the same amount of chainwear given that the chainline is perfectly straight case for case, and the tension is kept relatively constant. doesnt matter what dropouts are used. chainwear will be significantly less than with a geared bike which almost never has a straight chainline.
all chains come factory lubed, and according to sheldon, this is the best they will EVER be lubricated, so it is entirely possible to run a chain without adding suplimental lubrication for many miles, depending on the environment. i have a good friend with a SS, who knows nothing of bicycle maint. and his chain is doing fine.
if improperly applied, ie: overapplied, improper chain lube will lead to excessive wear as dirt and road grime is attracted to the chain, no question there.
Also, there can be no question that properly applied lube, of the correct type, when the chain is externally wiped to rid the excess lube will last longer than a chain that is not lubricated at all. thats a simple materials issue, any metal-to-metal contact will have less wear with lubrication, period.
1. Do different dropout types differ in their ability to keep the chain tension constant and the chain straight as chain stretch progresses? For example, one can imagine that a badly stretched chain might want to buck off in all sorts of directions. Perhaps a strong tug nut can keep it in place whereas a QR might flex or slip or a spring loaded tensioner might yield. In practice when will these different setups perform the same and when won't they? For example, a magic ratio setup should work fine on a new chain, but as the chain wears there is a world of difference between it and fork ends.
2. Do idlers and pulleys create more external chain friction and, thus, actually require more lubrication than just inside the rollers? Does this give the impression that the internal roller lubrication needs to be replenished much more than it really does? Could dipping a chain in hot wax fill the rollers with enough internal lubrication for the lifetime of the chain?
3. Which is a greater factor in chain life, a straight chainline or lubrication? Bear in mind that some configurations may be better able to cope with wear than others, so even if an unlubed straight chainline wears faster it may still have a greater chain life if that wear does not adversely affect performance.
In the end I just want to know what kind of configurations I can keep using my current no-lube regimen. I'm positive it wouldn't work with a derailleur, pretty sure it wouldn't work with a spring loaded tensioner on vertical dropouts, but I'm not so sure about horizontal dropouts and I don't think it would work with a magic ratio at all.
This thread is downright bizarre. The OP is adamant that this works, but having handled chains after soaking them in degreaser and letting them dry (ie a completely bone dry chain with no grit or lube inside of it) I can say for sure that the chain is far stiffer than when it is lubricated.
1. Does the stiff feeling chain actually impact efficiency in any real way or is it just the way it feels?
2. Maybe the chain internals are rusting before they finish drying. Would putting the chain in a hot oven to evaporate the water faster prevent it from getting stiff?
3. Would dipping in hot wax dry them even faster by instantly forcing out all water?
What I did was put my chain through a couple rounds of degreaser and rinsing with water in a soda bottle and then dropped the chain in hot wax. Lots of bubbling. Took the chain out and rode every day for two years without touching it. I wonder if the main benefit of the wax was to force out the water, to lubricate, or if it didn't really provide any benefit at all.
Last edited by makeinu; 04-07-09 at 04:38 PM.
04-07-09, 04:53 PM
#74
phony collective progress
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Hoosey
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This has gone on long enough.
Everyone lube your chains and go for a ride.
Everyone lube your chains and go for a ride.
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