Don't think the baselayer + knee warmers are gonna cut it today.

Not to derail the topic, but on the subject of leg warmers... Does anyone have experience with Pearl Izumi thermal leg warmers? Not the 'knee' but the full length 'leg' warmers. Perhaps any leg warmers for that matter?

I'm not a fan of leg warmers, and would rather wear tights. I haven't found a pair of leg warmers yet that will stay up where they're supposed to while just walking around in normal shorts, without being ridiculously tight around the thigh. They always end up just sliding down and bunching up like an 80's aerobics video.

This is obviously solved by wearing them under bib shorts, but if I'm doing that I could just wear tights.
Unless it's too warm for tights, in which case I could just not wear leg warmers.

So, yeah. Leg warmers have a very small niche, in the "going for a super long ride where it will be 35 degrees when you start and 70 when you end" area.

****.

tried on the orion and it was perfect.

it was also 25% off with no tax and i had tons of xmas money burning a hole in my pocket and i


walked away. 300 is more than i can afford.

however, the upside is that i like the jacket enough that when i have 400 to spend on a jacket, i'll gladly spend it on that jacket. it's so beautiful.

My wife bought me a Gore Phantom Jacket for Christmas. I can testify to comfy riding at 25 degrees in light snow and much wind. They can be had around the web for $120ish plus shipping.

Just curious, which sizes did you try on? I think we're the same size-ish (6'1 175). Mine is a large, which is definitely the right choice for layering under it.
But I'm curious if a medium would be a better fit for warmer climates where you're not gonna try to squeeze a fleece and a wool sweater under neath...


I should really get to that review. Ridiculous 50 mph wind gusts here the last couple days, still feeling nothing through the jacket.
No flaws at all yet.

Yeah, please review it.

As far as the legs thing. I am fine with a pair of jeans and thermals. Even in sub 0 weather. But take off the thermals and it's over with, you can feel the ice cold jeans touching your legs.

i am very much smaller than you, 5'8'' on a good day and wear a Small.

Thermal legs are a musty.

Oh, weird.

cc just has a big mans internet demeaner. I'm debating an endura venturi vs a swrve es hoodie atm. Venturi is about 90 shipped, get to check out the ES when orange 20 gets my size in. But given I'm cold as hell chillin in a park right now, I wish I had more then this 3 year old tarck jacket for warmth.

A good friend of mine used to wear this while riding:
http://www.rei.com/media/c/1146346.jpg
Was the funniest thing ever. I'm seriously debating buying one, too.

I'm rocking this at the moment:
http://www.sierratradingpost.com/p/1...f-For-Men.html

And i just saw they're on sale, so I'm going to suggest this product. I wear it in the rain/snow, summer/winter, and it does it's job very well. For winter riding, in temps anywhere from 0 to 20 [F], I wear a standard waffle thermal under a slim jacket (in my case either the Momentum from North Face, or a regulatory fleece from Patagonia), and this on top. Hundo percent warm.

Good tip. And Payne's my last name, so please ask for permission before you ride in my fort.

two points! i have that same jersey!

so, i have a super thin gap merino wool hoodie
http://www.gap.com/browse/product.do...032&tid=gofr1r
that i got for 20 bucks
and i layered over a cotton organic tee with my conduit dt mountain hardwear shell on top.

kept me nice and warm, cept for the zipper in crosswinds and my neck in a tuck(the wool is really thin so it has zero wind resistance, even for wool)... but for twenty bucks it makes the pain of not having a bosun/orion a little more manageable.

the conduit dt is old, and breathes pretty terribly, but this evening was cold enough to keep me from sweating into the merino.

also...
looks better than it did at interbike with unamused model

so yeah... merino wool is awesome. and the gap style looks great and is pretty darn high quality for what it is. it fits me well. some gap stuff is sized 'small' and i swim in it, and some is cut very flatteringly. i worked at a gap and the quality variance in that store is ****ing shameful. plus, you overpay 50% for every single thing in the store at msrp, sometimes 90%.

luckily at 30% of the msrp, this merino gap hoodie is one of the flattering cuts and i think i got a deal.

Buy me one of those for $20. Medium.

I bought a Columbia Omnitech Interchange last year when I was in Portland for $70.00... the shell is waterproof and windproof and the separable fleece inner adds a good layer of insulation.

It has a hood but that is removable.

Rode through the freezing rain in Oregon, used it all season here (and it was a wet one) and it is serving as my main winter shell although I prefer to wear a wool sweater underneath as it breathes and insulates better and is warmer than fleece which is good to
-10 to -15C.

Have cleaned it with Nikwax once since I purchased it as one should not use detergents on technical fabrics.

Wow, not 1 but two guys on this board are sponsored by Discovery Channel.

My REI jacket has a built in bill on the hood like that, and unless I'm wearing a beanie(like that dude is) it slips far down on my forehead and covers 2/3 of my vision.

Yeah I haven't worn the hood since I got it.

Yeah you really can't be $30 bucks either.
My question: how thin are they? I purchased a jacket a while back that was advertised as waterproof and wind-resistant (it is, and does the job well) but it is sooooo thin. Im not worried about staying warm. I'm worried about ripping a hole in it if I fart or something.

That's the idea. They're windproof and can be balled up to fit into a small area... like a jersey pocket or saddle bag.

My pearl izumi barrier lite has taken quite a beating and hasn't ripped yet. It weighs like 50 grams. Pretty crazy.

I was so angry that I couldn't buy the orion i decided to buy something similar.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...1-DSC_8639.jpg
it's an eddie bauer first ascent mountain guide jacket and i paid a little more than they have it for online.
it was below 40 today and i rode through town with just this and a compression tee underneath and was comfortable as long as i was moving. pretty awesome. not an orion, but i am still pretty pleased.

My 60.00 REI jacket is identical sans inner lining, but I wear a winter compression layer under it and I bet its the very close to the same, which I got from Target for 15.00- Champion Duo-Dri brand, which is awesome riding clothes btw.

I'm sure it's a really nice jacket, but not for the price.

http://www.rei.com/product/794207

edit: seems price is higher this year.. I bought mine 3-4 years ago. also seems you found an alternative! nice jacket!

saying that your rei jacket is identical is just silly.

you're saying silly things.

96% of the performance in 95% of the situations you ride in, totally legit. identical? no. no jacket is identical to the orion, it's completely ground up designed unique and fits like no other jacket i've ever tried on.

also, your 60 dollar jacket isn't scheoller c-change. it's just not. if you can't tell the difference, great. keep shopping at target.

the orion is a better jacket and i want it. no one is going to change that. that said, my alternative is probably a lot more of an alternative than your alternative. my jacket is made out of 4-way stretch softshell (nylon spandex blend) with a thin polyester backing. yours is two way and waterproof. mine doesn't need pitzips. it's not laminated like your shell, and probably breathes much better because of it... hence not needing pit zips. that said, it's still not an orion. the orion keeps water out in ways this doesn't, and probably breathes better too.

and in fit, next to the orion, the eddie bauer first ascent jacket i just bought is a bag. it's easily got room for three sweaters under it, and it's a small. the orion would have been snug with just a heavyweight champion hoodie underneath in size small, because those fit like bags too.

our jackets are alternatives but they both compromise a lot from the orion. yours compromises a crazy amount of breathability, mine a crazy amount of water resistance.

and while our jackets may work as well as we ever need them to, they still don't fit like an orion. or breathe like one. and they don't say mission workshop on them.

fwiw i also tried on some arcteryx shells that were gore-tex pro, very similar to the orion, but were 450-500. they didn't fit as nicely as the orion, for biking or for walking around.

compared to these arcteryx examples, the orion's a bargain. and was made in arcteryx's old facility in vancouver bc.

my jacket was made in bangledesh.

That BMW M3 is a nice car, I'm sure, but not for the price. My Honda Civic is identical sans the fancy badges. But I got a spoiler on the trunk and some flame decals and I bet it's very close to the same.

This thread is starting to sound like an audiophile discussion, except for jackets instead of headphones. :lol:

Hmm, I have a question that's a little off topic, but it's still about a jacket!

I developed a small tear (about 1 centimeter in width, 2 centimeters in length) in the arm of my favorite North Face jacket I cycle in when I fell off my bike... Has anyone had any experience sending stuff into The North Face (I got this jacket madly discounted at a sample sale so I don't know their policy on that) or repairing jackets themselves?

Yeah, well, when people start to say ridiculous stuff like:
"My waterproof nylon windbreaker is identical to that biking-secific Schoeller C-Change softshell"
...that is kinda bound to happen.

Mission Workshop: Orion Softshell
Alright, I know if I were all of you guys I'd want a more detailed review from someone who owned the Orion before I took the plunge. There were absolutely no reviews from anyone who had really used it when I bought mine, so it was a bit of an unknown. I didn't even have a chance to try it on, but I knew Mission Workshop would work with me if I had problems with fit, and after how they handled my Rondel situation (no-questions-asked new pair, send back the old ones opon recept) it didn't seem like too much of a risk.


Aesthetics
I'm about a month into ownership, and to my recollection I have worn it every day. The most pleasant surprise was how great it looks off the bike. For the nine to five I tend to overdress by just a touch compared to the other Engineers, and the people I work with are not surprised to see my wearing nice things. Still, the first day I showed up wearing the Orion I got many more unsoclicited compliments than I was expecting, and more than a few questions about "Where did you get that jacket?" This isn't me saying
"check out my sweet new jacket!" and them patronizing me... it was
"Hi Judy, how was your weekend?"
"Oh good, I love that jacket!"
The Olive color is awesome in person, and goes great with all the browns and grays and blacks I tend to wear when I care whether I match.

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/797/yeaaaah.jpg

Fit is obviously a big question since very few of us are going to be able to try these on in person. It was a little more tough for me, but it always is. I'm 6'1 175 and when it comes to cycling specific clothing I always have a tough decision to make between Medium and Large. If I get a large in Sugoi or Pearl Izumi it will be a bag; for those brands, medium fits like a glove. If I get a medium in Castelli it will fit like a two-sizes-too-small latex glove; large is much better for that brand. I would say in the "Euro" vs "American" fit, the Orion is a slim American. After talking with Evan at MW for a little bit about what I normally wear and how I intend to use it (winter with a decent amount of layering), he suggested the large, and I went with that.

My conclusions about fit: If you're buying this as your go-to cold weather piece, and you know you're *actually* going to use it in cold weather, and not always on the bike so you're *actually* going to need to layer, then I'd err to the bigger side. Obviously if you're always a medium and you've never bought anything but a medium, just get a medium. But if you're between sizes like I am, the extra room for layering helps.
On the other hand, if I was living somewhere like Seattle where this was more of a rain/wet piece and wouldn't require so much layering, I would have probably tried the medium. Wearing my large Orion over just a tshirt there is definitely some extra room in the torso area that I don't normally like. The jacket is not magic - it will not fit the same with two sweaters as it does with a compression shirt - so you've gotta pick based on your application.

If I was going to gripe about any aspect of the aesthetics, it would be the hood. It doesn't look great when it's up. The head seems a little deep, and so it kinda slides forward over my forehead. Functionally it works pretty well if I flip the bill up, but I still look like a tool. This is kinda the sad reality of hoods, though. That said, the look is much improved if worn with a cycling cap or beanie to take up that extra headroom... maybe this is what they had in mind.
And of course the hood is button-removeable, and completely optional. I have only broken it out a couple times for riding in the rain, and otherwise leave it at home. I just think the jacket looks better without it.

Cold
This is a softshell, so it isn't meant to let you summit Everest wearing nothing but a tshirt. What it DOES do is keep out the wind and rain without turning your torso into a sauna, and it does that really well. The first few times out I did overheat a little bit just because I didn't know what to expect... poly baselayer, long sleeve merino jersey, merino hoodie, orion. That is too much unless you're riding in -20. The good news? Pit zips cure all. Even way, way overdressed, I just opened the pit zips and was riding in supreme comofrt for the rest of the way.

Once I figured out the layering, I realized that a thin poly base layer plus my Cobra hoodie was enough for anything DC had to offer (low 20's to high teens with plenty of wind) as long as I was moving, and maybe replace the poly base layer with a waffle thermal long sleeve or a fleece shirt if I'm going to be off the bike and standing around (in the cold) for long. Again, the jacket doesn't offer more for warmth than maybe a lightweight cotton hoodie, but what it does allow is for your under layers to do their job without being torn to shreds by wind or rain.

I have never once felt the barest breath of draft through any of the seams or zippers, and the cuffs seem to lock like magic onto the wrists of my gloves; there is just enough stretch in the fabric, and they obviously put a lot of thought into the cuff design. My only warmth-related gripe is that the fleece-lined collar lacks any kind of cinch or drawstring, so if you're not wearing anything to occupy the space between the collar and your neck there is some space for wind to sneak in. I'm usually wearing my Cobra with the hood up, which serves to fill the gap around the collar, but it is something you have to consciously solve. Another option would be a gator or really thin scarf to wrap up with before putting on the jacket. The problem also mostly goes away when the buttoned-on hood is attached, but again... I don't normally use that hood.

Wet
Eye of newt. Toe of frog. Wool of bat. These are surely delivered by the truckload to that old Arc'Teryx factory to fuel whatever black magic goes into this fabric. I just performed a test:
- One piece bath tissue, stuffed into the sleeve by my elbow.
- One large bucket, filled with water
- Bend albow at acute angle, inser into bucket submerging arm/sleeve from arm pit to about an inch short of wrist cuff. This includes entirely submering the pit zip and numerous seams.
- Leave in bucket for one minute, swirl it around a bit.
- Remove arm, retrieve bath tissue. It is entirely dry. Magnets, how do they work?

Sure, a rubber suit would do the same thing. But if someone tried to suffocate me with a rubber suit, I'd be done. If someone tried to suffocate me with an Orion, I'd be able to breathe through the fabric for long enough to fight them off. And yet, the bath tissue came out completely dry.

I've only had a few occasions to ride with the jacket in the wet, and in all situations every other aspect of my clothing failed loooong before the Orion. It's kinda a funny feeling to be riding home and have your feet, legs, and hands all numb from 34 degree driving rain... and have your torso and arms cozy and warm and dry. All I need now are some pants, gloves, and shoe covered made from the same fabric. Also, probably a fat New Year's bonus check from work.

Construction and Details
I have alluded to a couple of the really impressive, attentive little construction details that have caught my eye so far. Like the way the cuffs fall so naturally over my full-finger gloves, and have just the right amount of stretch to form a windproof seal that doesn't move around or bunch up while I'm riding.

http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/6029/imgp5434.jpg

The outside "cell phone pocket" is the perfect size for a Mead spiral memo book and a pen, and the perfect location for making quick grocery list addendums or writing down addresses. You could also put a cell phone in there, but that has lived in my right pants pocket for a decade and isn't likely to move.

The rear jersey pocket is well situated and surprisingly well hidden. I can put a patch kit, multitool, micro pump, and clif bar back there with it being barely noticeable from the outside. Obviously it can carry more, and you'll just deal with the normal jersey-pocket hump back.

The zippers all go the right way; the pit zips open from pit-to-elbow, and all the jersey/chest/hand pockets open top-down. The zippers are deliberate and firm and precise and waterproof. I haven't found a flawed stitch yet, and I've looked. There was obviously a lot of thought put into the order of operations when they were constructing the jacket, and you could tell they went through all the prototype iterations necessary to get a finished product worthy of the price tag.

One detail I think MW missed the mark on a little bit is the mp3-player pocket, which is on the inside on the right hand breast. The pocket itself is fine; same high quality of construction as the rest of the jacket, and pretty standard neoprene-with-an-earphone-port fare we're all coming to expect in these kinds of jackets. The problem, however, is the location: it is dead in the center of where a left-shouldered messenger bag strap will go. Which means a lot of pressure being places on the mp3 player pocket, where presumably you have your fairly delicate mp3 player (which might have cost as much as this jacket). A few inches higher or lower on the right side, or even on the left side "below" the cell phone pocket, and this could have been avoided.
I don't listen to my mp3 player when I'm riding anyway, so it's in the bag, but this would be a problem some people have to solve.

Another minus would be the potential air-gap at the collar that I mentioned earlier, but this is less of an issue and pretty easily solved by your other layers. It is only going to be an issue if it is really *bitterly* cold, in which case you're going to want to be wearing a gator/scarf/balaclava anyway.


Summary
The Orion is an expensive jacket, but there are reasons for that. It is waterproof and windproof, but you could not be suffocated by it. It is so comfortable it's easy to forget you're wearing it, on or off the bike (I've been sitting here wearing the entire time I've been composing this review), without compromising at all on its attractive aesthetics. The attention to detail in things like the cuff and pocket design is impressive, and the construction quality has revealed no flaws whatsoever in my month of daily use.

I was going to make a pros and cons list, but you all should hopefully know now what the pros are.
So I'll just reiterate the cons, the ones I could come up with.

Cons:
- The hood looks dorky, and there's too much head room to wear it without a beanie or hat underneath.
- The collar can let a little air in if you don't have something to stop it, and there's no integreated cinch.
- The "mp3 player" pocket sits right under a messenger back shoulder strap.
- It doesn't automagically resize itself to fit the same with 10 layers or a t-shirt like in Back to the Future.

That's it.
That's all.

If you don't buy this jacket it is because you are an impoverished homeless person with bad taste.

If anyone has any other specific questions or wants to see detail pictures of anything, just let me know.