Steel is stiffer and harder than aluminum. But alu frames compensate by having larger toobs. So, I think the bk having OS steel tubes sounds pretty damn stiff.

aa

I'm going to make a brick out of noodles. What then?

Look, I don't doubt that you enjoyed your BK or that you found it comfortable. But your description of how it rides is just not accurate. The OS tubeset and geometry alone indicates it was not designed to "soak up bumps" and I can tell you from abundant experience riding this frame and many others that it doesn't, at least not in comparison to typical road frame of any material. Your username suggests a bias towards steel, which doesn't help your credibility in this...just sayin'. Your description of how the BK rides hints of the stereotypical and irrational anti-everything-but-steel rant that many steel-philes continuously spew. You may or may not be one of those people...but thats the impression I get from your username and mischaracterizaton of how the EAI BK frame rides.

Cover it with the flavoring from a packet of Ramen...I prefer any flavor thats spicy and Korean.

aa

aa

http://www.pedalroom.com/p/bareknuckle-3937_1.jpg

saw this and it won me over that yellow is beautiful

mihlbach what kind of frame do you suggest will be better for the road then? 5-star info btw, thanks a lot :thumb:

Ugh...

I guess I'll step in to clear up the ****-show and confusion.

First off, the OP isn't even asking about which frame would make a better road rider, so to give the answer to that is to ignore his actual question entirely. He's interested in riding a sw8 fixay on the street, not logging long, uninterrupted miles on a farm road.

Secondly, a frame can be both "stiff" and "compliant". How is this possible? The way a frame soaks up road vibrations is related to it's compliance; in that regards, a BK is a plenty compliant frame because of the tubeset used. A bike can also be stiff in the headtube and bottom bracket area, where stiffness is desirable by racers and anyone who intends to put a decent effort into their bike. Geometry and tubing affect both; the confusion in the conversation thus far has to do with confusion between these two things.

Tubesets aim to balance weight, stiffness and ride quality through diameter, butting and wall thickness; the BK's tubeset is, relatively speaking, a very oversized steel diameter ("standard"/classic being what you'd see on an old lugged steel bike), increasing the stiffness of the ride (in the sense that I just discussed). However, at the same time, the butting of the tubeset and thinnest of the walls at the most butted area add to the compliance of the ride, and make the BK soak up vibrations relatively nicer than similar steel bikes with thicker-walled/butted tubesets (Kilo TT comes to mind, as does my old Alien).

Now, the fun comes when you're trying to compare frames across different materials. The Leader will likely ride with both less compliance and more stiffness in the HT/BB area as a matter of the geometry and tubesets; especially with the fact that Leader likes to use aero downtubes, which really aren't known for a compliant ride. At the same time, the Leader will be lighter assuming all parts are kept the same, and will feel livelier on the initial acceleration due to the stiffness-weight ratio. (Compliance, of course, is not just down to frame material; tire choice, pressure and width make up the most immediate factor.)

Therefore, it comes down to values - do you want a bike that you can worry less about locking up, soaks up vibration from the streets a bit better but is also a little heavier and ultimately less stiff from a headtube/BB area perspective (but still plenty stiff for tree-trunk thighed trackies to race against in competition), or do you want a frame that may dent easier while locking up, ride harsher on rough streets but feel snappier under accelerations and not flex as much if you really sprint it hard?

For the record, I ride a BK and Concept, the BK mainly on the street and the Concept mainly on the track. Different tools for different uses, but I will say the geometry of the BK is among the best I've ever ridden (the BB drop is sky high and at least for me, that coupled with the front-end trail makes it a ton of fun to ride). If I could, I'd just buy another Concept to ride on the street but the extreme thinness of the tubeset's walls, while making the bike soak up vibration very nice for aluminum, also subjects it to dents while locking up.

Hope that was clear enough. The OP probably isn't gonna understand any of this for a couple more years.

get the bare knuckle no doubt
if you can spare the change

i could say i understood about 80% of this, ****ing useful as hell thanks a lot. im sold on the BK for sure. thanks to everyone again for the suggestions. cant wait to start building :thumb::thumb::thumb:

this can be locked

My understanding after prowling these and other fixed gear forums is that most serious fixed gear riders dislike leaders because they are cheap. I guess it goes back to hipster street cred. Two friends of mine both have leaders, one being a 735, and they are definitely nice frames. It really depends on what characteristics are important to you. If this bike will be your daily driver the bareknuckle looks better on paper. But more expensive does not always mean better quality.

I can't speak for Leader stuff as of now, but in the past they had crap quality control and some of the worst thought-out geometry I've seen. I like the looks of the 735 and Kagi, but can't find any geometry specs on the former and only limited stuff on the latter, so unless they're able to provide some I wouldn't buy. I think that, plus the cheapness in the past, is what killed their 'cred', but I'd give them a second chance now if I could ride one and see the specs.

I have a green BK that's hanging on my wall waiting to be built-up when I get to Georgia. Did you look at the EAI godzilla frameset too? Nicer welds, NJS. Lighter, better material. At some point in the next year I'm going to pick one up for my son. Leader has a good reputation here, both because Scrod has done a good job of marketing through usage (and being a nice guy) and because some people just want to keep their money going where they can see it. In short - it's very easy to feel compelled to try something when everybody else is doing it. Leader has developed that following.

Geo for both of those frames is readily available on my shop's website and many others.

Really? I thought it was just made by a keirin frame builder, Toyo.

The EAI Godzilla isn't NJS stamped. Does it actually matter? No.

Well usually the stamp means +50% on whatever it's actually worth. That's why I was wondering, it seemed cheap for a new njs bike.

The colors are great too. OP, which color did you pick out?

Seriously. We just received a shipment of them and I'm very torn between building up a pink or purple one (although I'm leaning heavily toward pink).

I always liked pink!

Yeah, I thought they were NJS stamped, regardless, they have some awesome color selection. The biggest selling point of the godzilla is the better craftsmanship, imho. My BK is sexy as hell, just not as sexy.

Well they're different frames. I'm fairly certain the BK is mad win italy with italian tubes where as the Godzilla is japanese tubes and made by Toyo.

I wish my dad would pick me up a Godzilla ;_;

The Bareknuckle is supposedly "handmade for EAI by a small shop in Venezia Italy. The tubes of the Bare Knuckle are mitered and TIG welded in Dedacciai COM 12.5 double butted cro-moly and feature Columbus dropouts".

Both frames are beautiful, IMO.