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Building first wheel set - looking for advice on spokes and hubs.

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Building first wheel set - looking for advice on spokes and hubs.

Old 08-23-13, 07:26 PM
  #1  
afoxinthemeadow
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Building first wheel set - looking for advice on spokes and hubs.

Hi y'all,
First post. Did some basic searching on hub and wheel advice but didn't really find answers I was looking for. I've been lurking these forums for months and bikeforums.net is a great resource for any questions related to specific product reviews or interactions of components -- so thanks for all the help in the past!

I ride a State Bicycle Co x The Hundreds bike. Last week the POS Quando hub on the rear wheel crapped out and stripped the entire fixed side of the flipflop hub (Thank God for the front brake). Its not salvageable so I have to get a new rear hub. At 3.1 lbs for the stock SBC (State Bicycle Co.) front wheel and 3.7 lbs for the rear stock SBC I think its a good idea to just invest in a new wheelset.

I dont compete on a track or anything really serious. I have a handful of buddies and we go on rides together and compete with each other on Strava. That's about as far as competitive I am. I ride about 200 miles per week and weight 185 lbs.

Im looking to purchase a wheelset built with H+ Son archetype wheels 32H, cx ray spokes/DT Aerolite spokes. Im not picky about the hubs - double fixed on the rear would be nice but not important. I was thinking maybe a chubb hub on the rear (On sale for $210 online) and maybe a cheap high flange hub on the front?

Velomine had a build on sale that's sold out for $225 with DT Swiss 2.0's with formula hubs - unfortunately its sold out. Their next expensive build is identical except with All City Track hubs.

Are All City Track Hubs really worth $75 more than formulas?

Any websites to recommend for wheel building besides wheel builder.com , retrogression.com , iminusd.com , city grounds.com ? Is it better to order the parts separately and have my LBS build the wheels?

Also, retrogression charges $3.00 per spoke for sapim cx-rays. Played around with building a wheel off their site without the hubs but including labor (2x H+Son Archetype + 64x Sapim cx-rays, 95 labor for wheel set and I got a price over $400.) If we factor in another $200 for hubs we're at $600 plus shipping.

Is Velomine the way to go? Are bladed spokes usually $3.00 a pop? My top price limit for the wheel set is around $500.

Thanks and sorry I'm so scatterbrained! Just looking for advice/websites or what hub manufactures to steer away from.

afoxinthemeadow
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Old 08-23-13, 11:16 PM
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That hurt my brain to read but I'll break it down into a list.

1) State made a bike with The Hundreds? That's even worse than their wu-tang bike.

2)Chub hub is unneeded, unless you want to try to build up another 3000 State tarck bike.

3) I have a set of H+son Archetypes with the All-City track hubs and after wheel building + parts I think it was around 380-420? So are you talking about the All city Sheriffs?

4) Bladed spokes are ********.
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Old 08-23-13, 11:29 PM
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This build: https://www.velomine.com/index.php?ma...oducts_id=2204
It says Formula in the title, All City in the description, and has a picture of Origin8 hubs. Are these all the same thing?
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Old 08-23-13, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by afoxinthemeadow View Post
This build: https://www.velomine.com/index.php?ma...oducts_id=2204
It says Formula in the title and All City in the description. Are they the same thing?
Well the picture of the hub shows Origin 8 so I'm going to guess it's the Formula.

Last edited by Huffandstuff; 08-23-13 at 11:32 PM. Reason: Derp, don't drink and post.
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Old 08-23-13, 11:44 PM
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Guess I'll call velomine and ask them what parts come with that build and how the spokes are laced. Thanks for the help Huffandstuff.
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Old 08-23-13, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by afoxinthemeadow View Post
Guess I'll call velomine and ask them what parts come with that build and how the spokes are laced. Thanks for the help Huffandstuff.
I've rode an Origin8 hub for about a year and it blew up on me so I have a pretty negative view of them. I know others who have rode them for 3+ years and no problem but I'm especially rough on everything I own.

Only about 4-5 months into my Allcity hubs at the moment but I haven't gone through a winter with them yet. Only time will tell.
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Old 08-24-13, 01:31 AM
  #7  
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That's exactly what happened to my quando rear flip/flop hub. It blew up. You're riding in PDX? Im in Eugene. Small world huh.
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Old 08-24-13, 02:07 AM
  #8  
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Bladed spokes such as cx-rays and aerolites are a complete lost cause and waste in your case, you'll never utilize their benefits nor experience any difference between run of the mill straight pull spokes. Also, you've pretty much blown the weight savings out the window choosing the standard 32 holed rims/ hubs. Lower spoke count? You'll be sacrificing durability and in foresight more money, considering I'm pretty sure you plan to ride said bike on the streets, hence you choose to buy the hundreds version.
If you want aero, this is not the place and time.
Save your money. You want $3 spokes while what you actually need is $1 spokes; cheaper by 3/4ths,m it might not be that much but when you multiply that by 64 it makes a great chunk. I would take the money from this elsewhere in this wheelbuild or possibly upgrades considering there's nothing but bad news with OEM parts that come with statebikes.

Hubs are the same story, sure you can spend all your money on hubs going for premium/ hype to satisfy want but you can also save your money for upgrades elsewhere (tires are a nice place to start to improve ride quality) by just getting what you need.
For the record, there's nothing wrong with your standard run of the mill sealed cartridge bearing hubset.
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Old 08-24-13, 03:15 AM
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Thanks Leukybear for the input specifically on bladed spokes. I figure I'd go for the archetype in a 32H rim because I'm a bigger guy and I have no idea how to true a wheel - more spokes would make a stronger truer wheel in the long run.

I think I'm going to splurge and go for some dura aces or phil woods for the hubs, double butted spokes (DT 2.0) and the H+ archetype rims. I really dont wanna bother with companies that have reviews of catastrophic failure on parts as integral and expensive to replace as hubs.

Other than the crank, bottom bracket, chain, retention, and seatpost, I've swapped out everything on the bike so far. I've got Mash x Cinelli bullhorns, mash 110 mm stem, san marco regale saddle in suede and I love it. Im pretty stoked that after I get the wheels replaced the bike will essentially be maxed out as far as eliminating as much weight as possible goes.

Maybe next summer I'll start checking out some aluminum/Lightweight steel frames for a new build. Thanks for all the help again.
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Old 08-24-13, 05:36 AM
  #10  
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Foxie, most modern wheels have 32 holes or less because rims have improved dramatically in recent years. Don't worry about being a 'bigger' rider, just avoid minimalist spoke counts and build your wheels with uniform tension and good quality spokes. There's no rocket science involved, unless you're in the roadie forums where it's all about rocket science with reality coming a distance last. Good hubs are most important. Good spokes (and they don't need to be butted spokes, plain gauge work) are next. The rim needs only be of good quality. The MOST important thing is how well the individual bits are built into a complete wheel and no, that doesn't mean you need a professional wheel builder, an amateur is quite capable of building a good wheel.

I advise building your own wheels. If you have a truing stand and a tension gauge, along with the right attitude (and not everyone is inclined that way), you will soon, if not immediately, be building wheels as good as anything you'll get from the shops. The added bonus is that you'll have the satisfaction of doing it yourself which, if you're that way inclined, is massive. Of course, not everyone is tuned that way, which is why we have people like Scrod who will build excellent wheels for you. It's your choice, anyone else's attitude really doesn't matter.
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Old 08-24-13, 08:29 AM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by afoxinthemeadow View Post
Guess I'll call velomine and ask them what parts come with that build and how the spokes are laced. Thanks for the help Huffandstuff.
The wheels pictured are laded radial front/3X rear using DT Swiss straight-gauge spokes to Origin 8-branded Formula hubs. Contrary to people believing that all Velomine wheels are hand-built (as they once were), they are machine-built by Wheelmaster in Miami and will need to be tensioned & trued by human hands before riding on them. That doesn't mean they're bad wheels by any means, it just means they won't be 100% ready to go right out of the box.

Bladed spokes are 100% unnecessary for everyday riding.

Last edited by Scrodzilla; 08-24-13 at 08:34 AM.
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Old 08-24-13, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by europa View Post
Foxie, most modern wheels have 32 holes or less because rims have improved dramatically in recent years. Don't worry about being a 'bigger' rider, just avoid minimalist spoke counts and build your wheels with uniform tension and good quality spokes. There's no rocket science involved, unless you're in the roadie forums where it's all about rocket science with reality coming a distance last. Good hubs are most important. Good spokes (and they don't need to be butted spokes, plain gauge work) are next. The rim needs only be of good quality. The MOST important thing is how well the individual bits are built into a complete wheel and no, that doesn't mean you need a professional wheel builder, an amateur is quite capable of building a good wheel.

I advise building your own wheels. If you have a truing stand and a tension gauge, along with the right attitude (and not everyone is inclined that way), you will soon, if not immediately, be building wheels as good as anything you'll get from the shops. The added bonus is that you'll have the satisfaction of doing it yourself which, if you're that way inclined, is massive. Of course, not everyone is tuned that way, which is why we have people like Scrod who will build excellent wheels for you. It's your choice, anyone else's attitude really doesn't matter.
Im open to building my own wheels if I was going for a cheaper build but I'm thinking I'm going to go with this build: https://www.velomine.com/index.php?ma...oducts_id=2148

Hopefully they can swap out the flip/flop hub for a double fixed or single fixed. Its strange to me that they would offer this fairly expensive build with a flip/flop hub.. Aren't flip/flop hubs just a way for manufacturers to brand a bike as a single speed and fixed to increase their market? That's what I always figured - which makes a pricey Phil Wood Flip/Flop seem weird.

Thanks for the heads up Scrodzilla on the velomine wheels needing to be handtrued before use.

I would build my own or have my buddy build them for me - but he's the one who helped me put together the Bicycle out of a box. When you get a new rear wheel are you supposed to tighten the cog with a chainwhip and crank down on the lockring? When he assembled the bike with me we did not touch the hub at all. I'm wondering if this was a cause of failure. How often are you supposed to tighten the cog and lockring if you ride 200 miles a week?

I'm skeptical to have my friend build them for me in the case that he was a cause of the first hub failing. If I had money for a truing stand/tension wrench/spoke wrench I would do it myself. However, I'm open to adjusting the wheelset off velomine myself if its feasible. What tools would I need? Would I need a trueing stand and the rest of the tools required to build a wheel from scratch? Thanks again - sorry for all the new questions.
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Old 08-24-13, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Scrodzilla View Post
That doesn't mean they're bad wheels by any means, it just means they won't be 100% ready to go right out of the box.
That's where retailers, as yourself, come into play. The wheels are not ready to go out of the box, the first time they come out.

You tension and true them and put them back in the box.

Then.........I take them out and they are good to go.

The set I got from you is still rolling great.

It's like Bob Taylor, the parts for his guitars are cut out by computers. Then, skilled humans trim and fit those parts together. Good guitars, the wood doesn't care how it was cut out. Just that is was crafted well in the end.

Not that Taylors are my choice, they just happen to be good guitars in their price ranges.
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Old 08-24-13, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by gregjones View Post
That's where retailers, as yourself, come into play. The wheels are not ready to go out of the box, the first time they come out.

You tension and true them and put them back in the box.

Then.........I take them out and they are good to go.

The set I got from you is still rolling great.

It's like Bob Taylor, the parts for his guitars are cut out by computers. Then, skilled humans trim and fit those parts together. Good guitars, the wood doesn't care how it was cut out. Just that is was crafted well in the end.

Not that Taylors are my choice, they just happen to be good guitars in their price ranges.
what? Im just wondering what tools i would need to fix the velomine wheels so that they are thrash-ready.
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Old 08-24-13, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by afoxinthemeadow View Post
what? Im just wondering what tools i would need to fix the velomine wheels so that they are thrash-ready.
Not a problem.

SEARCH.....Google can be your friend.

Find the tools you need. Add the cost. Figure how many sets of wheels you plan to buy.

If it's cost effective, buy the tools.

If not, pay the fifteen or twenty bucks and let the pros do it. (True and tension machine built wheels.)
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Old 08-25-13, 01:16 AM
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Originally Posted by gregjones View Post
Not a problem.

SEARCH.....Google can be your friend.

Find the tools you need. Add the cost. Figure how many sets of wheels you plan to buy.

If it's cost effective, buy the tools.

If not, pay the fifteen or twenty bucks and let the pros do it. (True and tension machine built wheels.)
Thanks for answering my question.
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Old 08-25-13, 01:42 AM
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Take them to a shop. If you don't know what you're doing, you're just going to screw them up and break spokes.

Alternatively, just ride them. I've done this with multiple Velomine wheels and never died once.
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Old 08-25-13, 02:00 AM
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Originally Posted by seau grateau View Post
Take them to a shop. If you don't know what you're doing, you're just going to screw them up and break spokes.

Alternatively, just ride them. I've done this with multiple Velomine wheels and never died once.
What happens if you ride velomine untrued wheels without a helmet?
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Old 08-25-13, 02:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Huffandstuff View Post
What happens if you ride velomine untrued wheels without a helmet?
Done it brakeless too, true story.
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Old 08-25-13, 03:30 AM
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Originally Posted by seau grateau View Post
Take them to a shop. If you don't know what you're doing, you're just going to screw them up and break spokes.

Alternatively, just ride them. I've done this with multiple Velomine wheels and never died once.
Cor, it's not just zombie threads we get around here, it's zombie riders as well. Just how often have you died?
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Old 08-25-13, 03:39 AM
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Foxie, you can true wheels in the bike using the brake pads to show how true they are. Buy a set of pre-build wheels, a good quality spoke wrench, true the wheels on the bike and just keep an eye on them. You're not likely to have to do much but it's a start to learning the game. Check tension by squeezing the pairs of spokes that appear to be parallel and/or by tapping them with something metal - there's no way this is precise but it'll show up any dramatic tension differences.

I got my truing stand at a reasonable price by keeping an eye on ebay. Not sure where I bought my tension gauge, and some will argue that they aren't necessary, but I'm a bit of a pedant so the tension gauge works for me. I started truing wheels on the bike, even redishing a couple for fixed gear conversions, but went to building them because I enjoy messing around with bikes and building wheels is very satisfying.

If you are swayed by the money arguments given above, you probably aren't mentally tuned for any sort of whole scale mechanics. That's fine, not everyone is nuts and it's an attitude that often grows slowly with experience. Just do what you enjoy and ignore those that don't agree, you're not trying to make them happy, just your good self.
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Old 08-25-13, 04:07 AM
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Foxie, you can true wheels in the bike using the brake pads to show how true they are. Buy a set of pre-build wheels, a good quality spoke wrench, true the wheels on the bike and just keep an eye on them. You're not likely to have to do much but it's a start to learning the game. Check tension by squeezing the pairs of spokes that appear to be parallel and/or by tapping them with something metal - there's no way this is precise but it'll show up any dramatic tension differences.




Take them to a shop. If you don't know what you're doing, you're just going to screw them up and break spokes.

Alternatively, just ride them. I've done this with multiple Velomine wheels and never died once.




Thanks guys for the serious responses and for your time - I think I'm good to go. Ill post pictures of the new wheels installed and let you know about my first hand trueing experiences using the brake pad guessimate method in a few weeks when student loans kick in! Until then ride safe!

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Old 08-25-13, 06:07 AM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by afoxinthemeadow View Post
When you get a new rear wheel are you supposed to tighten the cog with a chainwhip and crank down on the lockring? When he assembled the bike with me we did not touch the hub at all. I'm wondering if this was a cause of failure. How often are you supposed to tighten the cog and lockring if you ride 200 miles a week?
Yes you are. There is a high probability that caused the hub to strip. I've used a cheap set of wheels for years with no problems (aside from a higher than normal amount of maintenance).
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