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Learning how to stand

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Learning how to stand

Old 07-20-15, 10:34 AM
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Alcanbrad
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Learning how to stand

My Stoker has always refused to stand when riding her single, but the hills we regularly ride on the tandem are long enough that being able to occasionally stand while climbing would be most beneficial (to me anyway). Poking around online I only one short quip from Sheldon Brown:

Standing

One of the more advanced skills of tandeming is standing up and "pumping" or "honking" for an extra burst of power. This is not something to try until you have gone past the beginner stage as a tandem team. Standing smoothly requires that both riders coordinate their movements with one another. In particular, the stoker should avoid drastic sideward movements (always good practice anyway.) Some riders throw the bike sharply from side to side as the push on first one pedal, then the other; others have a smoother style, and stay centered over the bike even when out of the saddle.

Ok, tell me something I don't already know

Are there any techniques that we can try to learn the art of standing together in such a way that falling is not part of the equation? I know that the first time we fall, that will be it as far as standing goes so I want to do it right.

TIA
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Old 07-20-15, 11:51 AM
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communication is the biggest part of riding tandem.


Tell your partner that your going to stand and don't sway the bike as a byproduct of standing, regardless of the extra oomph you think your putting out...at least until your stoker is comfortable with (the thought of) you out of saddle.
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Old 07-20-15, 12:28 PM
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Yep. Start learning to stand on a smooth flat road with little or no traffic. When no cars are in sight, put the bike in the big ring and a smallish cassette cog. Count loudly 1-2-3 as say the right pedal goes down, then stand on the next right pedal. Hold the bike upright. The first time we tried it, we were in the opposite lane quite quickly. It takes practice. After a few successful tries, get your stoker to coordinate rocking the bike with you. When you're comfortable with that procedure, try standing on a hill. It takes a good bit of practice to get the bike in the right gear before coming up. We still always give it the 3-count before standing. Now I find myself counting before I stand on my single. We always accelerate slightly when standing, YMMV.

I've described what we call "rest stroking." Accelerating out of the saddle for real is a little more difficult, with both riders pulling up hard on the backstroke.
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Old 07-20-15, 12:33 PM
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IME standing is best learned if only one person does it at a time, until both are ready for a coordinated effort.

IME the captain should be the first one, and ask that the stoker do absolutely nothing to help except to continue turning pedals. Once the captain is comfortable with the dynamics, he can try stabilizing the bike (sitting) while the stoker stands. Then after the captain is comfortable reacting th the weight and balance shifts involved with a standing stoker they can make a coordinated effort to do it together without weaving all over the road.

WARNING - the learning process will involve some weaving, so look for an appropriate hill with no traffic which you can climb in the middle of the road.
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Old 07-20-15, 12:55 PM
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If she doesn't want to do it solo what makes you think she'll tolerate it tandem?
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Old 07-20-15, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
IME standing is best learned if only one person does it at a time, until both are ready for a coordinated effort.

IME the captain should be the first one, and ask that the stoker do absolutely nothing to help except to continue turning pedals. Once the captain is comfortable with the dynamics, he can try stabilizing the bike (sitting) while the stoker stands. Then after the captain is comfortable reacting th the weight and balance shifts involved with a standing stoker they can make a coordinated effort to do it together without weaving all over the road.

WARNING - the learning process will involve some weaving, so look for an appropriate hill with no traffic which you can climb in the middle of the road.
Sorry from our experience it was better for the Stoker to practice standing first. At half the weight of the captain less effect on steering/weaving. Once practiced then Captain and stoker stand without pedaling. Followed by the captain trying to pedal with the stoker standing. We noticed that the captain could give stoker whiplash if sitting and the captain rocked the bike.

We have got to the point where either one of us can stand at will without communication. We try not to rock side to side at all but some rocking is unavoidable.
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Old 07-20-15, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Team Fab View Post
Sorry from our experience it was better for the Stoker to practice standing first. At half the weight of the captain less effect on steering/weaving. Once practiced then Captain and stoker stand without pedaling. Followed by the captain trying to pedal with the stoker standing. We noticed that the captain could give stoker whiplash if sitting and the captain rocked the bike.

We have got to the point where either one of us can stand at will without communication. We try not to rock side to side at all but some rocking is unavoidable.
Yes, we all approach it differently, but you and I agree that learning one at a time is easier.

As for the captain standing first that probably depends on the stoker's ability to follow the "stay steady and don't help command". That can be a tricky proposition. When my wife, who was an experienced rider first rode as a stoker, it was nearly impossible to get her to stop reacting as she would on a solo bike. At times I wanted to blindfold her to keep her from trying to steer from the back. But that phase passed and things settled down smoothly.

So maybe my instruction should be to blindfold the stoker when the captain first tries standing.
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Old 07-20-15, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
Yes, we all approach it differently, but you and I agree that learning one at a time is easier.

As for the captain standing first that probably depends on the stoker's ability to follow the "stay steady and don't help command". That can be a tricky proposition. When my wife, who was an experienced rider first rode as a stoker, it was nearly impossible to get her to stop reacting as she would on a solo bike. At times I wanted to blindfold her to keep her from trying to steer from the back. But that phase passed and things settled down smoothly.

So maybe my instruction should be to blindfold the stoker when the captain first tries standing.
Agreed. And definitely don't blindfold the captain.
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Old 07-20-15, 03:28 PM
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We learned by standing together as a team. Pick a spot with lots of room and have fun wobbling around. We might have wobbled less the first few times if would not have laughed so hard. Have fun!

Generally we like to keep in mind it is not the end of the world if I fall over but if you are seriously worried about it then there is the option of finding a flat grass area at a playground or park to practice on. On the other a cyclist should know that there is a high probability that if you ride a bike long enough you will eventually fall over. The only way to make sure it does not happen is not to ride. We will probably keep riding a tandem until we feel that we are too frail to take the risk.

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Old 07-20-15, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
If she doesn't want to do it solo what makes you think she'll tolerate it tandem?
My stoker also never stood on her single. However she was able to stand on our tandem when we both stood together. I believe that is because I always stood a lot on my singles and thus knew the necessary steering and bar inputs to keep the bike tracking. We always stand together, never alone. I know other teams stand separately, but our experience is that standing together is easier on both team members because the cadence will be selected for the enjoyment and performance of the whole bike, not just one person. We stand to stretch our legs and back, to change the muscle contraction mode which we think helps prevent cramps, and to rest our butts. We'll also stand for more watts to pop over short hills without grinding in a low gear.

We also stand sometimes during descents to rest our butts and stretch our legs. When we do that, I rest my saddle horn against the inside of my thigh to stabilize the bike. And sometimes we stand on rough descents to take it easy on the tires, bike, and our butts, but I never corner hard while standing. Too freaky. We also stand for all RR tracks and bumps where bridges begin, etc. Reduces pinch flats and rim dents. On bumpy descents, Stoker watches my butt and stands when I do. There's usually no time to call it out. We haven't been able to get bunny hopping the bike down. Maybe someday.

Again, I strongly recommend learning to stand on the flat.
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Old 07-20-15, 04:49 PM
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We always stand together but with the stoker getting up first and sitting last. This is just because I (captain) don't like the feel of standing on the bike and it not rocking, which is the case if the stoker remains seated.
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Old 07-21-15, 08:05 AM
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Thanks for all the great replies. The consensus seems to be pretty evenly split amongst ALL the options :-).

We routinely stand for bumps or butt rests, but always on the flats or when descending and never when pedaling or climbing.

Since she has almost no experience standing while pedaling/climbing, so her learning will probably be the easiest. On the other hand, I like to rock the bike side to side when standing and if we are learn to climb with only one out of the saddle (most likely that would only be me) I need to learn to do that without rocking the bike. Probably something I should practice on my single.

Keep the cards and letters coming. We have our longest climb we've ever attempted coming up in a few weeks. Not likely we will have it mastered by then, but I will try and coax her to attempt some learning.
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Old 07-21-15, 09:02 AM
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We tried a bunch of different things when we started. What wound up working the best is - I say "UP" when I want her to get out of the saddle. I then join her on the next down stroke. Makes for a smooth transition and minimal disturbance. Biggest key IMHO is keeping the weight centered - and not both leaning too far forward.
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Old 07-21-15, 10:16 AM
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We have been doing this for quite a while, almost 30 years. I have my wife stand first and I blend in. Always have, always will.
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Old 07-21-15, 11:52 AM
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My wife and I learned how to stand together by practicing on deserted roads with a 4-6% grade. Initially we used just about the whole road, but pretty soon got to the point where I can keep the bike on a fog stripe with us both hammering out of the saddle. But if I ride with a different stoker such as one of my daughters, it's like starting over. My wife describes it as like learning how to dance with a partner.

If my stoker stands while I'm seated, I can feel the difference usually but otherwise have no problem maintaining my line. It may help that our bike has a little less trail than some others at 47 mm.

I have the most difficulty if the stoker sits while I'm standing, as then her movement has more leverage through the saddle than through the pedals. So we always communicate and agree first that we are going to stand, then I do a 3 count before I stand. By then the stoker is also up, and she stays up until she sees me sitting. If she needs to get back in the saddle before then, she tells me and I sit first.

I also up shift at least a couple of cogs before I start my 3 count, more if the grade is flat. On familiar terrain I can generally remember the right gear to select for out of saddle pedaling on a given stretch of climbing. On unfamiliar territory it's a bit more hit and miss.
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Old 07-21-15, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by mkane77g View Post
We have been doing this for quite a while, almost 30 years. I have my wife stand first and I blend in. Always have, always will.
Also have been doing it 30 years but I stand first.
I try to let the bike go where it wants to, not forcing it in any direction, we usually end up doing some zig zagging.
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Old 07-21-15, 07:54 PM
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We do best standing at a very low cadence, maybe 60-65. The motion of the bike then is very smooth and regular. Stoker likes that. It's not how I ride my single, but it works well for our team. So climbing in the granny, we might shift up a ring plus two cogs, or staying in the granny, up 4-5 cogs. On the flat, we usually stand in the 52-12. If I get the gear in the back wrong, I find I can shift OK if I force a "stutter" in the pedal stroke at TDC.
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Old 07-21-15, 10:28 PM
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Seriously.....there's no way you can do this on a tandem until she gets comfortable doing it on a single....get her on the single to practice this first.

We stand on our triple with our 10 y/o with no problems, and of course do it regularly on our tandem. Never could make it work on the quad though - just too long and flexy to be comfortable doing so.
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Old 07-22-15, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by DrMarkR View Post
Seriously.....there's no way you can do this on a tandem until she gets comfortable doing it on a single....get her on the single to practice this first.

We stand on our triple with our 10 y/o with no problems, and of course do it regularly on our tandem. Never could make it work on the quad though - just too long and flexy to be comfortable doing so.
Many different "shes", I guess. Worked fine for us. Stoker still doesn't like standing on her single, but loves it on the tandem. Very different machines with different handling characteristics.
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Old 07-23-15, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Alcanbrad View Post
Keep the cards and letters coming. We have our longest climb we've ever attempted coming up in a few weeks. Not likely we will have it mastered by then, but I will try and coax her to attempt some learning.
I just say "up" and we both stand. Very little rocking involved; the only problem we ever run into is a bit of bouncing if I forget to shift up a gear or two just before we stand. Stoker is a yoga instructor, and has incredible balance and a really strong core. This really helps keep the bike stable.

Glad to hear you are about to try the longest climb of your life. We actually enjoy long climbs and would like to find out where it is. Good luck.
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Old 07-23-15, 12:40 PM
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Stoker is our team time-keeper. Especially on long climbs, she has us stand every 10 minutes. As we get tired, the stands get shorter but we still get up. She calls the stand, I give the 3-count, she calls the sit. Our longest climbs have been ~3000'.
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Old 07-24-15, 08:42 PM
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Stoker manages standing

I'm the stoker (why are there no other stokers here!?), and have a different arrangement to throw in the mix.

I feel more comfortable standing on the tandem than my single bike. We live in a pretty flat area, so most of our standing is for bumps and butt breaks. I spend far more time out of the saddle than he does, usually at my request.

Over a bump, he'll tell me to stand, often counting down to the bump, and we'll coast through without pedalling. Maybe 25% of the time, he stands, too, and I have to make sure not to get hit in the face by his butt.

For a break, I'll ask if it's a good time to stand, and when it is, he'll tell me yes, I'll count down, he'll shift up a couple gears, and we settle into a slower cadence. I like it because it gives my butt a break and I can see more. And he loves it because it's a power boost without him having to work for it! The momentum doesn't ever last as much as coming off a even a small hill, though. I let him know when I'm about to sit.

We get curious looks when we do this, as I am clearly doing more work.

I don't like having both of of us stand so much, since he rocks more than I think is necessary. If he concentrates, it can feel fine. I don't think steering has ever been a problem.
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Old 07-24-15, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Kiramarch View Post
I'm the stoker (why are there no other stokers here!?), .....
Stokers aren't allowed to post, or even have opinions. It's a basic fact of tandem riding that the stoker goes where the captain chooses.


(I hope I don't need to say I was being facetious)
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Old 07-25-15, 05:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Kiramarch View Post

We get curious looks when we do this, as I am clearly doing more work.

.
Kiramarch, when you do this do you ever get "he's not pedaling?" :-)
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Old 07-25-15, 07:10 PM
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We never got around to learning how to get out of the saddles during the eleven years we rode our KHS, and now that we've recumbentized our tandem-riding, it ain't gonna happen.
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