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Steel a viable alternative to carbon?

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Steel a viable alternative to carbon?

Old 01-26-16, 07:30 PM
  #26  
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I spoke to Calfee, they are going to build a M/S frame for the Sacremento bike show end of February.
So we are going to take a demo-cation early March.
I'm thinking we need to ride a Supremo and Trillium as well.
I also spoke with Walt of Walt Works, he is open to building a steel frame as well.
I have not looked at Land Shark, any feedback on them?
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Old 01-27-16, 01:05 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post

And the components on a top end modern tandem simply work better and are more reliable than the Burley. it shifts better, it breaks better, and 11 speed gives you much better gearing options than a 6 or 7 speed Burley.
Wait, that's what the carbon nay-sayers say.
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Old 01-27-16, 07:23 AM
  #28  
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Our Rodriguez tandem is in the making right now. We chose steel over carbon wanting a reliable S&S coupler "bond" to the frame. Too many stories of couplers coming loose with carbon tandems. I've been very happy with the process, Dan has been really helpful (and patient with my many questions). Our fit is unusual with a 5'4" captain and 5'10" stoker.

Here's a pic:

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Old 01-27-16, 08:55 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by BNB View Post
Our Rodriguez tandem is in the making right now. We chose steel over carbon wanting a reliable S&S coupler "bond" to the frame. Too many stories of couplers coming loose with carbon tandems. I've been very happy with the process, Dan has been really helpful (and patient with my many questions). Our fit is unusual with a 5'4" captain and 5'10" stoker.

Here's a pic:

Looking good, keep me in mind once you get a couple rides on it, I would love to hear your feedback on the ride.
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Old 01-27-16, 11:43 AM
  #30  
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I know that you appear to have moved on from Co-Motions, but I was cleaning my Supremo and decided to weigh it. It weighs 31.35# ready to ride with everything on it but the seat pack (no rack). That's two pair of Shimano SPDs, four water bottle cages and computer mounts. It's a 2015 small.
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Old 01-27-16, 01:42 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Trsnrtr View Post
I know that you appear to have moved on from Co-Motions, but I was cleaning my Supremo and decided to weigh it. It weighs 31.35# ready to ride with everything on it but the seat pack (no rack). That's two pair of Shimano SPDs, four water bottle cages and computer mounts. It's a 2015 small.
Thanks for the input, Co-motion is still a very strong contender, here's where I am currently in the thought process.
Co-motion has been at this a while, and seem to have their geo dialed from the ride reviews I have read.
They are also the most affordable frame/fork package.
The bad is PF30, I would prefer a pair of Chris King externals, but that's not a deal breaker.
Since I am going to build this frame up, I would prefer a 142mm TA rear drop out, vs the Co-motion 145.
Rodriguez: The Trillium sounds great, I like the fact the S3 tubeset will deliver a frame on par weight wise with the carbon options, but am reading this may also result in a less stiff frame vs a ox platinum tube set.
I like the idea that all their frames are one off custom built to the buyer.
I am pro Carbon fork, and Rodriguez is dead set against them.
Calfee: Drop dead sexy looks.
Extremely light weight.
Great dampening properties of the carbon tubeset.
Maybe the only negative is the cost.
And option 4, Walt Works.
Having had a custom steel bike from him already, I know what I am getting.
Welds that look better than anything I have seen on the other 2 steel bikes mentioned.
Everything I didn't like about the other steel bikes mentioned, full custom implementation of my BB, drop out and forks wants.
The bad, Walt says as much on his site that he is not a tandem expert.
So, lots going on up stairs tandem wise lol.
I think I really need to get some saddle time and let that be the final litmus test.
Oh, been poking around the Landshark web site too.

Last edited by Tandem2; 01-27-16 at 01:48 PM.
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Old 01-27-16, 02:56 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by geronimo2000 View Post
The Burley was our introduction to tandems and it was a good bike that we could have continued to ride. I could never keep the die compe brakes adjusted and the eccentric kept slipping and the 8-speed cassette was clunky, but we could have kept riding it. The new bike weighs 20 or 25 pounds less and that makes it nimbler and easier to climb with and just generally faster and easier. Getting a frame that was built expressly for us and components that were exactly what I wanted only adds to the experience. I'm glad we learned on a less expensive bike because it helped me know what I was looking for when we upgraded but I have no regrets about investing in the Trillium. (And as much as I'm tempted to spring for a Calfee, at this point I'm just loving the ride I've got.),
Using a digital bathroom scale, our Duet weighs 45# (including rack, fenders, bottle cages, and pump). Maybe my bike is unusual, but I haven't had any mechanical problems in the two years we've owned it, including last summer's trip across Iowa.

I need to ride some other tandems (in the $5K range) to determine if I can feel a difference.

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Old 01-27-16, 03:44 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by engineerbob View Post
Using a digital bathroom scale, our Duet weighs 45# (including rack, fenders, bottle cages, and pump).

45lbs sounds a little light, Ours with a dum brake, but no rack or fenders weighed 50lbs even on the LBS shop scales. Other reported weights for Duets put them in the 50lb and above range. But even at 45 lbs, your 10-15 pounds above moderately priced modern tandems. And weight in pounds, not grams, makes a difference.

Originally Posted by engineerbob View Post
Maybe my bike is unusual, but I haven't had any mechanical problems in the two years we've owned it, including last summer's trip across Iowa.
Bob
Didn't mean to imply that a Duet is particularly prone to mechanical issues or would not be a serviceable bike.

There are a couple of mechanical issues know to Duets. The proprietary BB is a source of difficulty for many, but you can replace those. The rear hub that came with ours was pretty much crap, and no QR. We replaced that when it broke with a better QR hub.

The cantilever brakes, operated off a single lever, stop like crap, compared to modern brakes, and are difficult to adjust to get good braking front and back.

The bar end, index shifting (which was early in the development of indexed shifting, works, although we found ourselves putting it in friction a lot, but there's no comparison to the shifting you get from even lower end modern groups.

You could upgrade wheels and components to get better braking and shifting, and save some weight, but you'd still have a very heavy frme and spend a lot of money in the process.

So, to sum up, IMHO, the Duet is a serviceable tandem. If the cost of a Duet is all the money you choose to put into a tandem you can ride it, and enjoy it, and it will be up to doing long rides.

If however, your budget allows, even a $3000 modern tandem, will be a dramatic improvement, and a truly high end tandem will be incredibly different
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Old 01-27-16, 03:48 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Tandem2 View Post
I like the idea that all their frames are one off custom built to the buyer.
I am pro Carbon fork, and Rodriguez is dead set against them.
I don't want to put words in Dan Towle's mouth (Rodriguez) but he pretty much gave his "OK" on the carbon fork we decided on which is the ENVE CX TA fork. Some of the stuff on the R&E website is really out of date and I think Dan is not as set against certain components as he once was. The story of the broken carbon fork is ancient news. He is good with disc brakes. He leans toward being conservative, for sure, but that's not a bad thing for many beginner tandemers. I am doing the complete build myself but with his input.
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Old 01-27-16, 03:51 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Tandem2 View Post
Looking good, keep me in mind once you get a couple rides on it, I would love to hear your feedback on the ride.
Will do - and don't hesitate to PM me. I should have the bike built by the end of February. I'm still working on the components list (and will post my questions soon!) The comparison for us will be the Cannondale T2 vs this Rodriguez. I suspect it will be a very different ride!
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Old 01-27-16, 04:11 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by BNB View Post
Will do - and don't hesitate to PM me. I should have the bike built by the end of February. I'm still working on the components list (and will post my questions soon!) The comparison for us will be the Cannondale T2 vs this Rodriguez. I suspect it will be a very different ride!
I am even more interested now, knowing you have a cannondale to compare it to.
I am guessing our current fuji is not that much different than your current ride.
I built a set of deep v/hope wheels for it early into our ownership.
I even hung it on a LBS scale and was suprised to see it was relativealy light at 32 pounds with pedals and a thudbuster.
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Old 01-27-16, 05:12 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
Didn't mean to imply that a Duet is particularly prone to mechanical issues or would not be a serviceable bike...
In the interest of full disclosure, the bike did not shift well when we bought it. The cassette and chain were worn out. The Shimano brifters were not without their problems, either. I replaced the brifters with Dura Ace bar-end shifters. In the years between when our Duet was manufactured and when we bought it, the rims were replaced with Velocity Dyads (not sure of the hubs). The front canti was changed to a V-brake. The rear became a mechanical disc. I don't know if the BB is OEM or not.

Still, there is only so much one can do before diminishing returns dominate. Although I would not describe the Duet as a "sow's ear", it will never be a silk purse.

I just re-weighed it: 44.8# with a Tubus rack, three water bottle cages, a pump, SKS fenders, and clipless pedals. Understanding that scales often lack accuracy at either end of their ranges, I weighed myself and then weighed me holding the bike.

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Old 01-27-16, 07:10 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Tandem2 View Post
I am even more interested now, knowing you have a cannondale to compare it to.
I am guessing our current fuji is not that much different than your current ride.
I built a set of deep v/hope wheels for it early into our ownership.
I even hung it on a LBS scale and was suprised to see it was relativealy light at 32 pounds with pedals and a thudbuster.
Our Cannondale is a heavy 40 pounds with pedals. Despite that, we really like it and we'd have stayed with it except that we want to travel with tandem and needed couplers. I'm guessing the Rodriguez will be a smoother ride and will certainly fit better - though Cannondale did a fantastic job making an off-the-shelf tandem for a shorter captain. Kudos to them for that.

I will warn that we had trouble with Co-motion for our custom build with design mistakes that caused us to move on. We met a couple this weekend who also had trouble - gave CoMo all their detailed measurements and ended up with a bike that didn't fit them. So, you can spend a whole lot of time measuring your body parts, your bike(s) and still wind up with a bike that doesn't fit well. Whoever you go with make sure all the numbers they give make sense for you and your partner (to state the obvious).

Another thing I like about Rodriguez is they were willing to build our bike the way we wanted it built. I really wanted the top tube to come into the lateral tube rather than have a weird looking bike with all 3 tubes (top, lateral, downtube) coming into the head tube, but top and lateral bent for my low standover height which, imo, is wicked ugly (see Seven bikes for short captain). Dan will build what you want.

Last edited by BNB; 01-27-16 at 07:17 PM.
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Old 01-27-16, 07:56 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Tandem2 View Post
I spoke to Calfee, they are going to build a M/S frame for the Sacremento bike show end of February.
So we are going to take a demo-cation early March.
I'm thinking we need to ride a Supremo and Trillium as well.
I also spoke with Walt of Walt Works, he is open to building a steel frame as well.
I have not looked at Land Shark, any feedback on them?
I do have some feedback. Sorry haven't been around for a bit.

https://www.bikeforums.net/tandem-cyc...rk-review.html

There isn't a lot that's changed since I wrote this. As far as the topic: steel vs. carbon. We liked the steel Co-motion only slightly less than the carbon bikes. Honestly, they might be better value - nearly as good for a lot less money. They are (a couple pounds) heavier though. All depends on want you want.
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Old 01-27-16, 09:41 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Tandem2 View Post
Thanks for the input, Co-motion is still a very strong contender, here's where I am currently in the thought process.
Co-motion has been at this a while, and seem to have their geo dialed from the ride reviews I have read.
They are also the most affordable frame/fork package.
The bad is PF30, I would prefer a pair of Chris King externals, but that's not a deal breaker.
Since I am going to build this frame up, I would prefer a 142mm TA rear drop out, vs the Co-motion 145.
Rodriguez: The Trillium sounds great, I like the fact the S3 tubeset will deliver a frame on par weight wise with the carbon options, but am reading this may also result in a less stiff frame vs a ox platinum tube set.
I like the idea that all their frames are one off custom built to the buyer.
I am pro Carbon fork, and Rodriguez is dead set against them.
Calfee: Drop dead sexy looks.
Extremely light weight.
Great dampening properties of the carbon tubeset.
Maybe the only negative is the cost.
And option 4, Walt Works.
Having had a custom steel bike from him already, I know what I am getting.
Welds that look better than anything I have seen on the other 2 steel bikes mentioned.
Everything I didn't like about the other steel bikes mentioned, full custom implementation of my BB, drop out and forks wants.
The bad, Walt says as much on his site that he is not a tandem expert.
So, lots going on up stairs tandem wise lol.
I think I really need to get some saddle time and let that be the final litmus test.
Oh, been poking around the Landshark web site too.
You have some really good frame options. Here are some additional thoughts:

-it will cost more to buy a frame and do a custom build, but you probably know this already.
-have you considered Ultegra Di2? The shifting is phenomenal but it's limited to 2x11 (unless you want to hack the XTR Di2). You can get good deals on Ultegra Di2 right now.
-Double or triple cranks? The double will shift better and is lighter. A triple is more common and may be needed for loaded touring.
-The 142-12 TA is tempting and the hub selection should be better than 145. I wish this option was available when we did our build. Keep in mind that SRAM and others are already pushing for the 148-12 TA. The "Boast 148" will widen the hub flanges and will strenghen the rear disk wheel. However, it's risky to be an early adopter.
-How about 28mm tire clearance? The 28mm tires are more comfortable and rolling resistance is very good.
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Old 01-28-16, 06:15 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by mtseymour View Post
You have some really good frame options. Here are some additional thoughts:

-it will cost more to buy a frame and do a custom build, but you probably know this already.
-have you considered Ultegra Di2? The shifting is phenomenal but it's limited to 2x11 (unless you want to hack the XTR Di2). You can get good deals on Ultegra Di2 right now.
-Double or triple cranks? The double will shift better and is lighter. A triple is more common and may be needed for loaded touring.
-The 142-12 TA is tempting and the hub selection should be better than 145. I wish this option was available when we did our build. Keep in mind that SRAM and others are already pushing for the 148-12 TA. The "Boast 148" will widen the hub flanges and will strenghen the rear disk wheel. However, it's risky to be an early adopter.
-How about 28mm tire clearance? The 28mm tires are more comfortable and rolling resistance is very good.
Hey, thanks for the input.
With the exception of my last roadbike purchase, which was an end of season purge, my last handful of bikes have been frame builds, it allows me to spec how I want the bike setup and if shopped can be cheaper than a complete.
I have considered Di, but have never had an issue with mechanical shifting, so think I will probably lean mech.
I want to build a set of Chris King Carbon disc wheels for this bike, so the availability of the 142TA hub standard is very appealing.
The ability to run a 28 or larger tire would be great, the Mrs. Is not real fond of multiterrain adventures, but having that ability is nice.

Last edited by Tandem2; 01-28-16 at 06:19 AM.
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Old 01-31-16, 10:33 PM
  #42  
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We own an 11 year old Calfee and a coupled Co-Motion Supremo which is about 7 years old. We find the ride pretty close between the two, noticing the Calfee maybe accelerating a little faster. Both are great bikes. If I only had one bike to buy, and had the money, I'd get the Calfee but riding any tandem is always great.
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Old 04-15-16, 09:27 AM
  #43  
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Our tandem is complete and we love the ride, @Tandem2.It's incredibly smooth taking the harshness out of our rough road. I highly recommend the bike. You can see pics here: https://www.bikeforums.net/tandem-cyc...journey-2.html

Originally Posted by Tandem2 View Post
I am even more interested now, knowing you have a cannondale to compare it to.
I am guessing our current fuji is not that much different than your current ride.
I built a set of deep v/hope wheels for it early into our ownership.
I even hung it on a LBS scale and was suprised to see it was relativealy light at 32 pounds with pedals and a thudbuster.
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Old 04-18-16, 11:12 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by BNB View Post
Our tandem is complete and we love the ride, @Tandem2.It's incredibly smooth taking the harshness out of our rough road. I highly recommend the bike. You can see pics here: https://www.bikeforums.net/tandem-cyc...journey-2.html
Your new bike looks great BNB.
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