oldacura

Am I the only rider on the planet that doesn’t love Shimano Di2?

I am a late adopter. I’d rather let others work out the bugs on new technology and adopt it later when it is working better and at a lower cost.

So our giant leap forward is from a late 90s steel Co-Motion Co-Pilot 3x8 drivetrain with bar-end shifters to a brand new Calfee Tetra with 2x11 Ultegra Di2. For once in my life I decided not to “cheap out” and compromise for something sub-optimal. I tried to research on this forum and with an experienced tandem builder to get what I expected to be wonderful.

I love our Co-Motion. It is a coupled bike & we kept it for travel purposes. We live near mountains and need a big gear range to go up & down big hills. I think our low gear on the Co-Motion is 30x34. The top end is 54x11. I love it when we get to use the top end and appreciate the low end when we need it.

We took the Calfee out for an inaugural ride last Saturday. We did a 30 mile loop that we have done hundreds of times. I expected to love the new bike. Unfortunately, my experience was quite different.

The positive: The biggest difference I noticed was that the ride was significantly smoother. The carbon fiber softens & damps out the bumps much better than the steel bike.

Any other advantages were clouded by the difficulty I had with shifting. The Calfee is a 2x11 with 34x36 low and 53x11 high. The 2 ring arrangement up front was dictated by Di2.
First off, I found that I was constantly shifting the wrong direction (shifting down instead of up & vice-versa). I have 4 other bikes each with a different type of mechanical shifting. Within seconds of switching between the other bikes, the shifting becomes 2nd nature and “muscle memory” takes over. I can shift without thinking about what I am doing.

With the Di2 I was constantly hitting the wrong button. Though the positioning of the switches is the same as with Shimano brifters, the action is quite different. With the brifters, one makes a gross motion to move the chain to a physically larger sprocket and hits a release button so the spring can drop the chain to a smaller sprocket. In my reptilian brain, this makes sense to me and I do it without thinking.

With Di2, the button to move the chain to the bigger cog seems to be smaller than the release button & somehow I was always hitting it when I wanted to shift to a smaller cog. The more I thought about it, the more often I would do it wrong. Extremely frustrating. I felt like a completely inexperienced bike rider. Always apologizing to my Stoker.

Because of this “what gear am I in” question, I got the XTR Di2 display. I thought this would help. I does display what gear we’re in but the text is very small and the display goes dark within seconds of shifting gears. So it only tells you what gear you just shifted into. Not much help.

Frustration #3 : Because of the Di2 2 ring compromise, the jump from the big ring (53t) to the small (34t) is HUGE. Shift down in front and immediately spin up from like 60 rpm to like 100. No fun.

Frustration #4 : Either because of the wide gear range or because of Di2 (or both), I cannot use the small ring up front with any of the smaller cogs (#1 1, #1 0 or #9 ) without drivetrain noise. My stoker would call out “trim” and I couldn’t. I said, “I can’t”. I just had to try to find another similar ratio that didn’t make noise and I was back in the mode of pushing buttons – mostly selecting the wrong gears – sometimes in big jumps.

Frustration #5 : After our Saturday ride, it became clear to me that I have unconsciously developed a finesse shifting our old bar-end shifter bike. The rear is indexed and I can shift faster & smoother on the rear than I can with my brifter-equipped (Durace) road bike. The front shifter is friction. I can shift smoothly and nearly silently. If there is too much resistance for the front derailleur, I sense that and can hesitate for a fraction of a second and move the chain to the next cog with little or no noise. I can trim out almost any chain noise. With Di2, you press a button and the derailleur instantly shoves to chain to the adjacent cog regardless of the chain tension. This sometimes makes a very unpleasant “ping!”. No finesse here. This is a bit like driving a car with a manual transmission. Most people can jam from gear to gear but with experience one can learn to double-clutch, match revs and slip from gear to gear smoothly & without thought.

So, assuming that I can re-train my brain to select the correct gear, this solves Frustration #1 . However, I don’t see any way to be able to solve the Big Jump issue or the Cross Chain issue. Maybe Di2 could work well for teams that live in relatively flat areas and/or are younger & stronger and can climb steep hills in higher gears.

We also found out that because the top end isn’t quite as high, we topped out at around 40 mph down a relatively modest hill. We have pedaled our Co-Motion up to 45 mph and coasted up to 58 mph (when we were younger).

Maybe I’m a Luddite. Right now I see Di2 as a solution looking for a problem. I took recommendations from people on this forum and read reviews of people on the internet of Di2 in non-tandem applications and nearly everyone else loves it. People rave about how fast and surely it shifts.

To be fair, the guy that built this bike for us warned against Di2 & 2 chainrings but I chose to believe the praises.

I am willing to give Di2 some time and maybe I can train myself to shift correctly. However, this solves just one of the above complaints. Will I learn to love Di2 or just hate it less? I may look into what would be involved in converting the bike back to old-school.

End Of Rant.

Standalone 

Recommend riding around stokerless a bunch, so that you can devote 100% of your reptilian brain to shifting. Your shifting points will be different on any given terrain, but you won't be spending focus on keeping your stoker comfortable and happy, which IME on a tandem rightfully takes a decent amount of attention.

DKMcK 

oldacur, you are not alone. We have had ours for several months (given the winter, not a lot of miles) but I STILL hit the wrong button! We went with the 50-34 up front but we are spinners and my stoker does not like to go over 45 anyway. I do not have the cross chaining issues to the level you do. I avoid big - big, but small - small works fine. I really like the quick shifts but my stoker does not. She could tell when I was shifting the mechanical but this one surprises her. So I have to be more diligent in communicating shifts. What I miss most is the close ratios for most of our riding with the granny when things get steep. I'm considering going back to the triple and putting the di2 on my Madone.

sch

When I first rode my Di2 single, it took months to get the shift direction right, finally began chanting SMOOTH is SMALL, ie the smooth paddle switch makes
the RD/FD go to a smaller ring/cassette where the cross hatched/rough paddle switch makes the FD/RD go to a larger ring/cassette cog. I mostly get it right
now 2.5yrs later.

On another point, a well adjusted Di2 will not make ANY noise from the RD or FD once the shift is complete. You may need to microadjust the chain position,
easily done at home. The FD automatically trims to adjust cage position with RD shifts to the largest and smallest cogs on the cassette.

Shimano tech docs: https://si.shimano.com/#
How to adjust the RD is 20-30 pages into the document. Basically you press and hold the button on the connector box under the bar until the red lite
stays on persistently and use the buttons on the brifter to move the RD in/out in microsteps while listening for chain noise as you turn the crank, a
two person job with a tandem. Takes a few minutes and no computer needed, except to download the manual.

oldacura

Sounds like a good mnemonic device. Why should it take 2.5 years to get used to something that was 2nd nature with mechanical shifting?

This seems a bit like the new automatic transmissions in cars that have paddle shifters. Imagine that you just got a new expensive car that had the paddle shift feature but had no automatic default - the car relied on the driver to shift. Also imagine that this car had not two but four shift buttons. How often do you think drivers would be selecting the wrong gears? Almost nobody I know who has a car with this feature ever uses the paddles. Most just let the automatic take over.

I have not owned a manual transmission car for years. However, I did love driving my last one (except in traffic). A co-worker just got a new Mazda Miata with a manual transmission. He let me drive it. Within seconds of starting to drive, my muscle memory had me shifting quickly & smoothly - like I had just driven yesterday. The car is a blast to drive.

Also, most people who buy new high-end sports cars elect to get the automatic transmission. It is faster and easier than a manual transmission. Is it more fun? Not for me.

I just got back from a ride on my mountain bike. It has old-school finger & thumb shifters. I never think about how to shift gears. To move to a bigger cog means that I physically push on the thumb lever. For a smaller cog, I pull the finger release. Perfectly intuitive.

Carbonfiberboy 

I don't know. We were on a group ride last Sunday and had a rider drop out with non-functional shifters on her brand-new bike. Di2. Call of shame. If it were me, I'd retro-fit with one of the successful Di2 triple arrangements which have been discussed here. You'll get used to the buttons. Hand looms are only for artists now.

kingston 

This is great! Finally a reason other than my extreme cheapness not to upgrade my tandem.

chojn1

Old,
A few thoughts that may help you cope with the DI2:

1) Either train yourself to the regular STI setup or re-program your shifter buttons to what you feel is intuitive.
2) Double shift when you are changing chain rings (i.e. when you shift up on the chain ring, simultaneously shift down 3 gears on the cogs and vice versa). Program your right shifter buttons to shift in 3 gears increment when you hold for more than a second.
3) The Garmin gear indicator can display a graph of your gears which can help you remember the functions of your 4 buttons. It is a large display easily readable in day light and does stay on continuously.
4) Re-fine tune your bike. It takes a little more finesse on the tandem but I see no difference between your tandem and those already working well with DI2.

akexpress 

1. I think part of your noise issues is the large difference in chainring sizes. Most of us that have D12 on our tandems have either 52/39 or 50 /34 so your 53/34 is outside of the normal configuration. We just returned from a 10 day riding trip with our Di2 and I thought about you during the first few rides to see if I could duplicate your issues and I could not but I don't have the big differences in the front chain rings. I can use all but the small/small. I can totally cross chain the large chainring. I also can switch cassettes from our normal 11-36 to a 11-40 with just a chain exchange with two more links. I am willing to bet your noise is on the chainrings not the cassette and your derailleur adjustment is fine.
2. download the free etube software and reprogram the buttons to do what you want and is intuitive for you. While doing that change the display time on the XTR display to a longer time ( think you can even have it continuous). Di2 is a solution not a problem and I would never go back. On a travel bike you just plug in the wires to the battery and at the couplers and shifting is spot on every time we travel. When we had mechanical it always took a day or two to get it right. Our bike is totally silent except when shifting front chainrings and I still call out to let off ever so slightly to make it even smoother on the front shift, but in unexpected situations I can force it without issue. With your large chainring difference you will probably need to double shift at times to keep cadence with in reason. Battery life is amazing with months between charges. I think with some refinements you will like it.

Dean V

I have taken a while to get used to Di2 but do really like it. Until I was familiar with it I tended to lightly rest my finger over the shifter buttons and then think about what I was doing before you pushing one. This is much less likely to cause mistaken shifts than trying to instinctively stab at them like you can with a mechanical system.
The cross chaining issues would be helped if you went to either a 52/36 or 50/34. Also check that your chainrings are on the correct chain line relative to your rear cassette.

mtseymour

You should give yourself more time. Your transition from mechanical to electronic shifting is compounded by the change from 8sp bar-end shifters to 11sp integrated shifters. Even without Di2, a SRAM 22 or Shimano Ultegra front derailleur would have difficulty with a 53-34 crankset. It's an usually big gap in gearing.

I used a mix of mechanical 10 and 11sp drivetrains, and the 11sp Di2 is definitely superior. It's fast and there is simply no chance of dropping the chain when using the front derailleur.

It's no big deal if you miss the occasional shift. Just use the other paddle to reverse gears. According to my stoker, even a mis-shift on Di2 is better than a good shift on a mechanical drivetrain. Di2 is so quiet that she finds it reassuring, and we don't have to ease up when we drop down to the small ring while doing a steep climb.

Your shifting will also improve if you try a 50T big ring. How often do you spin out while using 50x11 in a paceline?

marciero

As I said in another post, gotta love 9-speed DA, or in your case, 8 speed. Also, you are not going to approach the ease, fine tune, and feel of friction front mech shifter with anything more modern. That said, I would bet you can get the DI2 working fine and even grow to love that. +1 on multiple simultaneous shifts to deal with the 53/34 jump.
I also love being able to access all rear cogs from middle ring. You cant typically do that with more than 10-tooth jump. We had 54/44. I wanted a smaller middle-installed a 41, which is perfect- and had to decide between smaller big ring, or not accessing the 11. Was not a matter of trim, but rather the chain catches on the ramps of the big ring. I put a 50 on there but not ideal. Was trying to go with what I had on hand.

oldacura

We almost never ride in a paceline. We spun out on our 53t x 11t setup on a fairly gentle downhill. Another thing that I love about our old Co-Motion with the 54x11 gearing is that under the right circumstances (moderate downhill) we can drop much stronger riders.

I guess that I didn't realize that Di2 would require so much compromise in other areas. I should have known that almost nothing is better in all ways - just better for some in their application. I design machines for a living. I know that what is best for Sales may not be best for Service.

Mechanical derailleurs have evolved and been refined for decades. Modern mechanical shifting systems are better in almost all ways than they were 20 years ago. The exception to this is indexed front derailleurs. I find that sometimes I cannot find a position that gives me full range and not rub in certain combinations. For this reason, I think friction front shifters are better.

Now the trend is to completely eliminate front derailleurs (like on mountain bikes) and go to electronic derailleurs. This is just going to trade one set of compromises for another. I guess that is how Shimano (and others) continue to sell new stuff to old riders. If I waited until my older equipment was worn out before I replaced it, I wouldn't be buying new stuff as often.

CoMotionRider

Something does not add up here. Here is the following using the same size rear tire:

53-11 gearing calculates to a 129 gear inch and at 40 mph the cadence is 104 RPM
54-11 gearing calculates to a 131.4 gear inch and at 40 mph the cadence is 102 RPM

oldacura

I realize that the difference between 54x11 & 53x11 is less than 2%. So this was just a perception on our first ride. Also, I didn't have a speed (or cadence) counter on the new bike (so I don't know what speed we topped out at).

mtseymour

We like to work together with other riders in a paceline, but like to drop wheelsuckers. It's not ideal to attack on a downhill with a 54x11 gear because it can be scary and it's easy to lose the gap. Even among the pros, it's not common to attack on the descents. A safer and more effective tactic is to attack near the end of the descent, and use a 50x11 gear at 100-110 rpm. It's much harder for a single bike to maintain this pace on flat terrain because they won't have momentum and aero advantage.

Why be stuck with an unusual and awkward gear ratio when you can learn to expand your cadence?

oldacura

I've never raced and don't aspire to. When I say that we can drop much stronger riders under the right circumstances means that for instance closing in on a single rider near the crest of a small hill and hitting the big gears as we descend. It can be fun to watch them try to hang on. We have pedaled up to >45mph. Simply a momentary ego boost.

With our old setup we can have a wide gear range and crisp shifting - except for granny gear that is reserved for slow climbs of steeper hills. I didn't realize (but I should have) that Di2 would dictate my gear range. For me (so far) the snappy shifts aren't enough upside to justify this compromise. Clearly for others it is. At our team age, we are unlikely going to expand our cadence.

None of my other bikes shift as crisply as the rear derailleur on our old bar-end shifted Co-Motion. Also, I can trim out nearly any gear combination with the friction shifter on the front. The only time I have to live with drivetrain noise is if I try to go near small/small on a 3x8 drivetrain & then I can easily find a mid/bigger combo that is silent.

JanMM

None for me, thanks!

oldacura

My first reaction was to abandon Di2 & convert to mechanical. However, I now realize that will likely require me to send the bike back to Calfee to have cable stops, etc. installed. This will likely be expensive & time consuming.

So, my next approach might be to make the best of what we have. This might entail swapping out the chainrings for less extreme range. We now have 53 x 34. What is the widest recommended range that will work reliably with everything but small/small? Our cassette is 11x36.

Also, for all of you Di2ers out there - how often did you shift the wrong direction when you first adopted Di2 & how often do you mis-shift now? How long did it take before you could shift without thinking?

Bad1

Have been using a 52/34 for over a year with no problems, shifts are right on. Cassette 11-32, with this set up you will have a slight chain touch on ramps when cross chained, shouldn't be in those lower gears anyway with that angle.

radsmd

Using 52/34 with a 11-36 cassette on our triple. Some noise on sm/sm, but works fine otherwise.

You can customize the buttons using the shimano e-tube software to whatever you'd like, so the wrong button issue is easily fixable.

oldacura

I assume you mean a triple bike - not a triple crank - correct?

Reassigning the buttons would likely only confuse me worse. The position of the buttons is the same as on my Dura Ace STI single bike. I think my confusion has to do with the gross motor action of shifting rather than the position. As with most computer controls - the system is doing what I tell it to do - not what I want. I need to fix my brain.

I don't honestly know if the drivetrain noise is due to the chain rubbing on the front derailleur cage or on the pick-up pins on the big ring. With all of the potential range and adjustment of Di2 the chain should never rub on the cage (auto trimming). If you are the captain of a triple - can you hear any drivetrain noise from way back there?

Also - I don't think drivetrain noise issues are with the big cogs on the cassette - I think they are due to the chain rubbing on the ramps of the big ring when we're in the small ring. So to eliminate the noise I'm probably going to have to go with a smaller big ring & a bigger small ring.

radsmd

Yes, triple bike. The advantages of di2 is greater on the triplet due to the longer distance from shifter to derailleur.

As far as the confusion with shifting, you can either get used to "brifters" or sticking with the bar end shifters. It is not an issue with di2, but an issue with not having the advantages of trimming afforded with the bar end shifters. You will have the same issue with any mechanical group that has integrated shifter and brake lever.

Give it some time, I think you will get more used to it.

DubT

THANK YOU FOR YOUR HONEST REVIEW!

For whatever it is worth, it seems to be human nature to fall in love with whatever we have researched and spent our money on! If someone has Di2 then it has to be wonderful. I saw this on a motorcycle trike forum, it one had a brand X kit on their bike then it was the best, etc. You know what I mean.

Other than learning to use the correct button for the correct shift the issue I see is the wide ratio cassette and the double 34/53. I do not think that I could comfortably adjust to that. If we are in a 52/30 and need to shift to the 39 I will up shift at least 2 gears on the back before shifting to the 39 otherwise it spins us up to a cadence that we don't like.

A possible solution to the gear problem is to convert the cranks from double to triple and use the XTR front derailleur. Hopefully you have a set of cranks that could be changed out. You will still have to contend with the shift buttons.

I am leaning in the direction of using SRAM rear wireless shifting and keeping the triple utilizing mechanical shifting.

akexpress 

The biggest problem I see for this team is the extreme front chainring difference which is well outside of Shimano specs (max 16 tooth). With di2 it is very easy to shift both front and rear to get the cadence close. He previous had 3x8 so a 2x11 has not decreased his choices every much.
He can not use an XTR Di2 front derailleur with a Di2 rear road derailleur and is further complicated in that an XTR will not handle a 52 or 53 tooth chainring without a hobbled together front mount to cant the derailleur up .