Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Tandem Cycling
Reload this Page >

Advanced Tandem Technique

Notices
Tandem Cycling A bicycle built for two. Want to find out more about this wonderful world of tandems? Check out this forum to talk with other tandem enthusiasts. Captains and stokers welcome!

Advanced Tandem Technique

Old 07-05-16, 07:55 AM
  #1  
Mayonnaise
Arschgaudi
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Chicago (Beverly)
Posts: 852

Bikes: Merckx Team SC, Masi (fixed), Merckx Cyclo-Cross

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Advanced Tandem Technique

My wife and I are approaching our first 500 miles on our new tandem. We're both falling madly in love with it. I'm a greying semi-retired absolute amateur bicycle racer since the days of Lemond and she's a burgeoning athlete with a sudden, newly emerged competitive streak. On our metric yesterday we sat in with some salty dawgs I've known forever and was surprised by her desire and ability to stay on their wheels. We'd take a few pulls and the dawgs would bark in approval.

All that being said, there is much I don't know. My bike handling isn't where I want it. Cornering is slow and deliberate. Don't even talk about standing and pedaling in unison.

What I'm searching for and haven't been able to find is someone who has written about tandem riding with a more advanced perspective. Amazon doesn't have anything and google and the word tandem rarely produce leads.

Anyone here know of anyone writing knowledgable, experienced words on riding a tandem. I'm not necessarily talking about racing, rather more about dialing in as a single unit on the bike.
Mayonnaise is offline  
Old 07-05-16, 10:06 AM
  #2  
zonatandem
Senior Member
 
zonatandem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 11,017

Bikes: Custom Zona c/f tandem + Scott Plasma single

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 75 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 13 Times in 6 Posts
We ride with our pedals 90 degrees OOP (Out Of Phase) for the past 40-some years.
Advantages: Always a power stroke going over the top. Less 'tandem snake' effect (the back end of the tandem swaying under hard pedaling). Easier climbing without the need to stand (either individually or collectively).
We rode rather competitively for decades and averaging 10,000 mile a year (we live in AZ so year-around riding).
Photos attached . . . note pedal position.
Works for us!
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
402420716.jpg (96.8 KB, 215 views)
File Type: jpg
Copy of Us on Co-Mo.jpg (97.7 KB, 219 views)
zonatandem is offline  
Old 07-05-16, 12:10 PM
  #3  
sch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Mountain Brook. AL
Posts: 3,887
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 272 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 87 Times in 68 Posts
500 miles is a start but you need some more. We were a somewhat fast tandem but not big dog fast, mostly because our competitive years were in the
'70s and our combined age was in the 130 range. It is not easy to sit in with a group of singletons in a pace line, it requires a bit more attention by the
captain to distances between bikes and you accelerate less well partly because the stoker doesn't always know what is going on ahead of the bike. It is
prudent to develop the habit of vocally calling out for shifts, especially CW shifts but even for larger cassette shifts so the stoker can know to back off
a bit on the torque. Likewise letting the stoker know about bumps'holes/irregular pave improves the stoker experience though the observant stoker will
come to sense that the bump the FW just went over is going to translate into a big punch to the stokers crotch and back in less than a second, but still
enough time for the stoker to elevate the butt a little even if the cad in front didn't vocally warn (sunglasses and dappled light sometimes make this
hard). You really have to judge turns in advance, it helps to lead out the other bikes going into a turn as you can usually go through it faster as first
bike and have a good view of the possible gravel/sand to avoid. If not lead bike then your present approach is better, but it will speed up in time.
Don't know how far out you ride, but in my area down hills should always be taken by the tandem first if in a group. Tandems can roll out to 30 mph+
on a modest hill where singletons might only do 22-25 mph. Singletons rarely realize how much of an express train a tandem can be on hills
so tell the people you are with: we go first on downhills. Get accustomed to shouting "on your left" when passing down a hill. In general with the
groups we rode with, once the tandem is on front, it tends to stay there until you hit an uphill and the group goes up the hill and leaves you
behind. I use to call them tandem fleas.

Your listing of Chicago suggests a lot of fairly flat riding unless you leave the state, so the hill comments may not apply. We would occasionaly
hit a ride with "tandem rollers", a continuous up and down of the road with elevation changes of 20-40 feet up and down. If the tandem can keep
up momentum over the top of these and roll down the other side in such a way that singletons are left gasping in their wake.

Last edited by sch; 07-05-16 at 12:16 PM.
sch is offline  
Old 07-05-16, 12:41 PM
  #4  
oldacura
Senior Member
 
oldacura's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Lafayette, Colorado
Posts: 1,035

Bikes: 1998 Co-Motion Co-Pilot, 2015 Calfee Tetra

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 170 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times in 5 Posts
Some here love to ride pacelines - singles & tandems. I used to do it on my single and occasionally on the tandem. However, I find that when I am in a paceline on my single, I spend the ride just trying to hang on and staring at someone's rear tire. Now I ride mostly by myself.

We've tried a paceline on the tandem only a couple of times. It can be fun but you better REALLY trust your fellow riders. The consequences of a crash are huge.

In general, riding in a paceline will allow you to go faster but my experience is that the chances of a crash go way up in a paceline.
oldacura is offline  
Old 07-06-16, 12:56 PM
  #5  
Carbonello
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 56

Bikes: Team Scandium/ Sovereign

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Amazon has the used book "The Tandem Scoop". A good book for beginners but not much for advanced riders.
Carbonello is offline  
Old 07-06-16, 01:49 PM
  #6  
waynesulak
Senior Member
 
waynesulak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ft Worth, TX
Posts: 1,971

Bikes: Custom 650B tandem by Bob Brown, 650B tandem converted from Santana Arriva, Santana Noventa, Boulder Bicycle 700C, Gunnar Sport

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by Mayonnaise View Post
My wife and I are approaching our first 500 miles on our new tandem. We're both falling madly in love with it. I'm a greying semi-retired absolute amateur bicycle racer since the days of Lemond and she's a burgeoning athlete with a sudden, newly emerged competitive streak. On our metric yesterday we sat in with some salty dawgs I've known forever and was surprised by her desire and ability to stay on their wheels. We'd take a few pulls and the dawgs would bark in approval.

All that being said, there is much I don't know. My bike handling isn't where I want it. Cornering is slow and deliberate. Don't even talk about standing and pedaling in unison.

What I'm searching for and haven't been able to find is someone who has written about tandem riding with a more advanced perspective. Amazon doesn't have anything and google and the word tandem rarely produce leads.

Anyone here know of anyone writing knowledgable, experienced words on riding a tandem. I'm not necessarily talking about racing, rather more about dialing in as a single unit on the bike.
I am not sure exactly what techniques you want to learn but I believe that in general the best approach I have found is to find a good safe place to practice and explore the skill together as a team. Some think the captain has to learn to stand, corner or whatever but it is the team that has to learn the skills, communication, trust and timing together.

For example even simple braking which would appear to be a captain only skill requires communication and the stoker to properly brace themselves and remain calm (easier said than done). In an emergency stop an unskilled team can end up with the stoker thrown on the back of the captain, grabbing captain body parts in an attempt to stay on the bike.

Last edited by waynesulak; 07-06-16 at 02:04 PM.
waynesulak is offline  
Old 07-06-16, 03:59 PM
  #7  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 17,488

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2952 Post(s)
Liked 872 Times in 658 Posts
I've learned by asking, mostly other teams, and some on BF.

We ride in phase. To learn to stand, find a chunk of flat road with no traffic, put it in your biggest gear, and count 1, 2, 3, as your dominant pedal comes down. Both stand on the 4th stroke. Be prepared to sit immediately. First time we tried it, we were in the opposite lane in 2 strokes. Get it down on the flat, then try it at the tops of small hills. We stand at a much lower cadence than I use on my singles and rock the bike like a single.

We ride with singles frequently, including pacelines, as long as it's flat. Even small hills completely disrupt. Even if we could climb as fast as the singles, and even more so if we could, we vanish on the descents. IME, only a few very experienced and fast singles riders have learned to suck tandem wheel. We tend to exhaust the singles on the descents and let them recover on the climbs 'cause we're old and slow.

On our recent tour, we did a lot of pulling of singles on the flat, us in zone 1 rolling at about 18. We can do that all day. That's the best, really. Just get on the front and let the singles deal with it.

Our CoMo Speedster handles like a single at anything over 25. I think our tandem requires a bit more countersteer than my singles. No problem feeding it into a corner just like a single, except that I am more careful if I can't see the whole corner because changing line or speed is much slower on the tandem.

Our team weight is 283-290. We have no problem descending mountain roads with grades of 7% or less using just our rim brakes. For steep grades, loaded touring and unknown territory, we have a spare rear with a drum brake.

It all just takes practice, thousands of miles of fun together.
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Old 07-08-16, 11:51 AM
  #8  
Mayonnaise
Arschgaudi
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Chicago (Beverly)
Posts: 852

Bikes: Merckx Team SC, Masi (fixed), Merckx Cyclo-Cross

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I'm in the first flush of excitement and can see both the potential of the bike as well as my own limitations. I need more experience as well as conversations with people that have been where I am now. We've signed up for the Midwest Tandem Rally, I'm sure there's plenty of kind advice to be had...
Mayonnaise is offline  
Old 07-09-16, 10:56 PM
  #9  
vrooom3440
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Grass Valley
Posts: 167

Bikes: Co-Motion Primera Co-Pilot, Trek Madone 3.1

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I will not claim to be an expert but here are some of the things I have learned...

I find that turns, especially faster or harder turns, work out better if pre-announced to minimize stoker steer. Some stokers are just very comfortable and become one with the bike while others try and compensate this way or that. The latter need more communication and coaching.

With experience you will learn that tandems ride quite differently than singles. They lose speed faster going up and pick it up faster going down. This is the most difficult and frustrating thing for a tandem captain when riding with singles. Our natural rhythm is just different than theirs and clashes. On a tandem it often pays dividends to attack the downhill and build up speed/energy for upcoming uphills. This is why/where tandems can really have fun on the rollers (if the singles do not get in the way!). I also find that downshifts are often 2x at a time on the tandem and it feels as though I do a lot more shifting on the tandem.

The captain also has to be aware of and manage the power/endurance/comfort of the whole team. I call drink breaks and especially butt breaks and try not to burn the team out chasing squirrels.
vrooom3440 is offline  
Old 07-10-16, 04:49 AM
  #10  
Alcanbrad
Senior Member
 
Alcanbrad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 344

Bikes: '14 CoMo Carrera, '11 CoMo Primera co-pilot, '98 Santana Visa, a Plethora of road bikes, A commuter/Gravel beast (and 1 MTB)

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Liked 28 Times in 24 Posts
Originally Posted by vrooom3440 View Post
...

Some stokers are just very comfortable and become one with the bike while others try and compensate this way or that. The latter need more communication and coaching.

...
Communication is key. My stoker exhibits stoker steer on fast curvy descents and when fast approaching busy intersections. I have learned that choosing ones words carefully is required to avoid friction. I will say calmly "don't fight the bike" which elicits a response , but does achieve the desired result.

Just take it easy and treat every situation as a learning experience for both of you.
Alcanbrad is offline  
Old 07-10-16, 03:22 PM
  #11  
geoffs
Senior Member
 
geoffs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Sydney
Posts: 320

Bikes: Co-Motion Mocha Co-pilot, Habanero custom commuter, Seven Axiom SL, Seven Axiom SLX, Blom Track

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 78 Post(s)
Liked 12 Times in 10 Posts
My dear stoker used to lean the wrong way through corners which used to make life interesting to say the least.
After convincing her to pretend she was a sack of potatoes with her body weight, our cornering became a lot better.
Slow speed maneuvering skills are worth practicing also.
geoffs is offline  
Old 07-13-16, 03:16 PM
  #12  
LV2TNDM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 524

Bikes: Cannondale tandems: '92 Road, '97 Mtn. Mongoose 10.9 Ti, Kelly Deluxe, Tommaso Chorus, Cdale MT2000, Schwinn Deluxe Cruiser, Torker Unicycle, among others.

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 147 Post(s)
Liked 93 Times in 61 Posts
Miles, miles, miles!

Wow, I have't posted here in forever!

Anyway, if you have paceline/peloton and racing experience, I can't imagine you two don't just need more miles to gel together.

Trust is obviously a big issue with tandem teams. Given your level of experience, your partner should have some implicit trust in you. Unless you've behaved in a manner to betray her trust, you should have an advantage.

I'm lucky to have the perfect stoker: small, trusting, strong, and experienced. First time I rode with her on a bike ever, I couldn't believe how well she spun the pedals. "How'd you learn to spin so well?" I asked. "What's 'spinning'," she replied! "Just keep doing what you're doing!!!"

Being small makes my job in front a piece of cake. I'm 200 lbs, she's 100. Talk about easy!

She also had a lot of experience riding on the back of her brother's motorcycle. Bam! Totally perfect stoker material!

We were lucky in the beginning I guess. We were standing on climbs shortly after our first ride. Announcing stands and sits definitely helps. Reduce your cadence out of the saddle as well. Shifting up a few cogs on a climb will tell your stoker standing is forthcoming. Calling out shifts also helps - especially when shifting to another chainring. I almost always call this out to this day (23 years riding tandem). But on the rear, I often skip announcing. I'll soft pedal, but don't care if she doesn't - today's drivetrains shift so well under load it has never been a problem for us.

I think announcing your intentions, your moves and upcoming road conditions will help you gel. If she knows there are no surprises riding with you, she'll be really comfortable and can concentrate on working with you as a team.

Having a safe, functional and quality tandem are also things you may not think about. We started and still ride a Cannondale road tandem. We rented a steel Santana on vacation once and were pretty appalled at the terrible frame flex on fast descents. This may affect your partner's impression of the bike's stability. Confidence in the ride is important too.

We trackstand, ride no hands, and mountain tandem and I feel so lucky to have a great stoker who will even embark on something like this with me (right around her fiftieth birthday, too):
https://www.bikeforums.net/attachment...1&d=1468444456
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
Whiskeydrome Tandem from FB.jpg (101.5 KB, 158 views)

Last edited by LV2TNDM; 07-13-16 at 03:33 PM.
LV2TNDM is offline  
Old 07-13-16, 03:31 PM
  #13  
LV2TNDM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 524

Bikes: Cannondale tandems: '92 Road, '97 Mtn. Mongoose 10.9 Ti, Kelly Deluxe, Tommaso Chorus, Cdale MT2000, Schwinn Deluxe Cruiser, Torker Unicycle, among others.

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 147 Post(s)
Liked 93 Times in 61 Posts
One more thing...

I've been meaning to share this with the tandem community for a while now, but never got around to it.

Well, for years, I was frustrated that riding no hands on the road tandem was a no-go for me and my wife. I never quite understood why, but let it go thinking it wasn't worth freaking out my partner trying to do something pointless anyway.

Well, I learned that my issue was mainly caused by the crappy WTB Grease Guard headset I was using. I had been meaning to upgrade to King for years until I finally made the effort and did it. Voila! No hands riding was now possible. How cool! (And how stupid of me to tolerate this steering issue for so long. Oh well.)

But what I did learn in the process is that riding no hands with no stoker on the back (on our bike at least - a '92 Cannondale) is (or was) still very challenging. Only until I was riding home from my kid's school each morning with no stoker on board did I dedicate some time to observing and hopefully solving the issue. (I had just learned to ride a unicycle, so I refused to let riding no hands alone on the tandem elude me.)

Well, what I learned is that most of my tandem's stability while riding alone no hands has to do with the frame's side-to-side swing, NOT typical lean (or counter steer). I realized that pedaling a tandem alone causes the BB to swing left and right, disrupting the steering. Grabbing the stoker bars below me and holding firm completely stopped the frame sway and immediately made the bike rideable. Pull up on the left, bike steers right, and the reverse for the right side. Wow, hold the stoker bars and the problem's solved!

So if you're not able to ride no hands, first be sure your headset's functioning as intended, try grabbing the stoker bars to stabilize the frame on the vertical axis. You'll be surprised!
LV2TNDM is offline  
Old 07-14-16, 12:47 PM
  #14  
Number400
Senior Member
 
Number400's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Central PA
Posts: 972

Bikes: Cannondale Slate 105 and T2 tandem, 2008 Scott Addict R4, Raleigh SC drop bar tandem

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
No books but my experiences to share:


As stated above, miles are huge. The more you ride, the better you are able to learn how to effortlessly counteract any movement by your stoker, sitting or standing. You will also learn to communicate through the pedals. You will learn how to be a predictable captain and how to care for your stoker. You will gain upper body strength and you will become a pack mule. You will learn little tricks, like how to approach hills, cadence, gearing, pace, etc. All good things!


Riding with fast singles can be a challenge and an exercise in frustration. You need to rotate to the front and hit the hills first and with some effort and good shifting, top out as you are being caught, much like a solo heavier rider on a spirited group ride. I would not seek huge climbing rides with a bunch of singles if you hope to stay together; for your ride and your marriage


Very exciting that your Wife is excited about riding and you both will get strong together and have fun along the way.


Oh and since Rudy mentioned phase, I run our tandems with the stoker leading by a few degrees. This makes her work a little harder and spreads out the power delivery a little longer. At first, I would initiate and she would just let her legs ride along. Now, she has a predictable stoke and feels like she is working.

Last edited by Number400; 07-14-16 at 12:57 PM.
Number400 is offline  
Old 07-14-16, 12:52 PM
  #15  
Number400
Senior Member
 
Number400's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Central PA
Posts: 972

Bikes: Cannondale Slate 105 and T2 tandem, 2008 Scott Addict R4, Raleigh SC drop bar tandem

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Holy crap LV2! Great picture!


Originally Posted by LV2TNDM View Post
Wow, I have't posted here in forever!

Anyway, if you have paceline/peloton and racing experience, I can't imagine you two don't just need more miles to gel together.

Trust is obviously a big issue with tandem teams. Given your level of experience, your partner should have some implicit trust in you. Unless you've behaved in a manner to betray her trust, you should have an advantage.

I'm lucky to have the perfect stoker: small, trusting, strong, and experienced. First time I rode with her on a bike ever, I couldn't believe how well she spun the pedals. "How'd you learn to spin so well?" I asked. "What's 'spinning'," she replied! "Just keep doing what you're doing!!!"

Being small makes my job in front a piece of cake. I'm 200 lbs, she's 100. Talk about easy!

She also had a lot of experience riding on the back of her brother's motorcycle. Bam! Totally perfect stoker material!

We were lucky in the beginning I guess. We were standing on climbs shortly after our first ride. Announcing stands and sits definitely helps. Reduce your cadence out of the saddle as well. Shifting up a few cogs on a climb will tell your stoker standing is forthcoming. Calling out shifts also helps - especially when shifting to another chainring. I almost always call this out to this day (23 years riding tandem). But on the rear, I often skip announcing. I'll soft pedal, but don't care if she doesn't - today's drivetrains shift so well under load it has never been a problem for us.

I think announcing your intentions, your moves and upcoming road conditions will help you gel. If she knows there are no surprises riding with you, she'll be really comfortable and can concentrate on working with you as a team.

Having a safe, functional and quality tandem are also things you may not think about. We started and still ride a Cannondale road tandem. We rented a steel Santana on vacation once and were pretty appalled at the terrible frame flex on fast descents. This may affect your partner's impression of the bike's stability. Confidence in the ride is important too.

We trackstand, ride no hands, and mountain tandem and I feel so lucky to have a great stoker who will even embark on something like this with me (right around her fiftieth birthday, too):
https://www.bikeforums.net/attachment...1&d=1468444456
Number400 is offline  
Old 07-15-16, 10:01 AM
  #16  
LV2TNDM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 524

Bikes: Cannondale tandems: '92 Road, '97 Mtn. Mongoose 10.9 Ti, Kelly Deluxe, Tommaso Chorus, Cdale MT2000, Schwinn Deluxe Cruiser, Torker Unicycle, among others.

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 147 Post(s)
Liked 93 Times in 61 Posts
Originally Posted by number400 View Post
holy crap lv2! Great picture!
Thanks!
LV2TNDM is offline  
Old 07-24-16, 10:07 AM
  #17  
mkane77g
Senior Member
 
mkane77g's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 712
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by oldacura View Post
Some here love to ride pacelines - singles & tandems. I used to do it on my single and occasionally on the tandem. However, I find that when I am in a paceline on my single, I spend the ride just trying to hang on and staring at someone's rear tire. Now I ride mostly by myself.

We've tried a paceline on the tandem only a couple of times. It can be fun but you better REALLY trust your fellow riders. The consequences of a crash are huge.

In general, riding in a paceline will allow you to go faster but my experience is that the chances of a crash go way up in a paceline.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Amen and,

Last edited by mkane77g; 07-24-16 at 10:10 AM.
mkane77g is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
124Spider
Tandem Cycling
71
01-09-19 09:00 AM
Denda
Tandem Cycling
12
08-18-14 08:00 PM
vrooom3440
Tandem Cycling
18
08-11-14 11:08 AM
jeneralist
Tandem Cycling
27
08-11-14 10:38 AM
JMarino
Tandem Cycling
15
09-07-11 11:53 AM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.