BNB

We have utterly settled into our Rodriguez tandem and haven't ridden our Cannondale T2 for over a year. Time to sell it! My concern is liability in selling any bike in this litigious state. I will write up an "as is" sales receipt but thinking about adding a clause that states the buyer must have the bike safety checked by a certified mechanic before riding it.

Another thing: those of you who have sold your tandem(s), how do you handle test rides with people who have no tandem experience? It took us several rides to barely get the hang of it on a flat road with low, slow traffic.

Helpful thoughts appreciated.

DKMcK 

I sold both mine to individuals that were not local so no test ride was needed.


However, if you do have a local customer wanting to try it out, I recommend you guide them. See The Proper Method

Our local tandem club has an event once a year to allow local cyclists to try a tandem bicycle. We follow the above method in guiding them.

merlinextraligh

Unless there's a known defect that you don't disclose, or you've done something to alter the bike, I think you're risk is pretty minimal even in California.

Of course people can sue you for anything, which is a good reason to have umbrella insurance.

merlinextraligh

As well intentioned, and as much common sense as that makes, imho, its the exactly wrong answer, as far as liability is concerned.

When you allow the prospective purchaser to test ride the bike, you have no duty to instruct them in how to do so safely.

They fall due to their own poor technique, you're not liable.

Give them guidance on how to ride the bike, and now you have taken on a duty to guide them in a fashion that is not negligent. And they have an argument that the guidance, or how the guidance was communicated was not reasonable under the circumstances, and you have some potential liability.

It's really an example of the principle that no good deed goes unpunished.

FBinNY 

What's sad here is that we've evolved a society where even the simplest human action raises fear of a potential lawsuit.

JanMM

Are you aware of any such bicycle-related lawsuits?

merlinextraligh

^ if you google it, there are a fair number of media reports of bicycle retailers being sued for injuries from improperly adjusted bikes. (Walmart pops up a lot).

If your prospective customers are injured in a test ride of the bike, due a negligently maintained or adjusted bike, it's not much of a stretch from there.

Admittedly, I'm not aware of any individual seller having been sued in such a circumstance.

Personally, if it were me, I'd disclose any known defects, make sure the bike was in good repair before anyone rode it, make sure the premium on my umbrella policy is paid up, and not worry about it.

FBinNY 

There's a big difference in the legal responsibilities of a professional like a dealer, and a non-professional like an individual selling his bike, which by law in most states is an "as is" transaction, whereby the buyer has no (legal) expectation of quality or safety except as claimed by the seller.

Yes, in the USA, anybody can be sued at any time for any reason, and for no valid reason, but selling a used bike doesn't carry any special increased risk.

merlinextraligh

True, the dealer's going to be held to a higher standard, but it doesn't mean an individual can't have tort liability if they act negligently. Thus as in my example, you let someone test ride a bike you're trying to sell, and you know it has a defect, and that defect results in injury, you absolutely can be liable for that, dealer or no.

CliffordK

Do you do all of your own maintenance, or do you take stuff to your local LBS mechanic?

Value?

If it is say, a $1000+ bike, and you're worried, you can take it in for a spring tuning. Fix anything wrong with it. Then sell it as "freshly tuned". That would shift some of the liability from yourself to the shop. Take it for a test ride, so you can verify simple things like brakes actually work.

===================

All of my local bike transactions are cash only. It is pretty well implied that the seller doesn't want to see the bike back (I suppose with the only exception of it being stolen, and in that case, it can still be hard to get a refund).

FBinNY 

The issue is that you have to know it has a defect and the plaintiff would have to support the claim that you do. Dealers can be held to a "should have known" standard, but should have known is vary hard, if not impossible to apply to an individual. Another issue for a possible plaintiff would be to show that he relied on your expertise and assurances. He has eyes the same as you do, so the burden to check it falls on him equally.

Folks have been selling used stuff, including cars for decades and courts have generally said that as is means as is, and buyers assume responsibility, except when specific claims were made.

Of course, if the frame has a big crack and you put tape over it.....

So, all that's needed is the same level of normal care that you'd apply if riding it yourself, or lending it to a good friend, or a statement that you haven't ridden it a while, and they should give i a quick once over before taking off.

merlinextraligh

^ If you read my posts, its pretty clear I don't think this is something that needs to be a big concern. There are potential scenarios where you could have liability, however, and even if you ultimately aren't at fault, as you've pointed out, that doesn't mean you can't get sued anyway.

Hence, the advice to have an umbrella policy, and not be overly concerned.

FBinNY 

Yes, you and I agree. I'm only posting to counter the excess concerns that some have about selling their used stuff.

As I said very early in this thread, we've sadly reached a point in US society, where instead of an orderly society making people feel safer, they feel there's danger lurking around every corner.

What next, make guests sign a waiver before they eat your wife's cooking? (don't respond, that was rhetorical)

Leisesturm

I can't imagine that CA is more litigious than NYC. Even in NYC I would not worry about being sued by someone that bought a used tandem off me. Bikes are hard enough to sell as it is. The last thing you want to do is creep a buyer out by telling them they need to take their new bike to a mechanic for a 'safety check'. If I were the buyer I'd run from a seller like that. If you are that concerned take the tandem to a dealer and let them sell it for you.

ahultin

Hi @BNB,
I figured that was yours on craigslist

Given the price/value, I would write an as is bill of sale and call it good.
On a self serving side note, if you are truly worried about liability, you could always donate it to BSC thru the SD center for the blind (501c3) for the tax write off

BNB

thanks for the opinions and info, folks. Having been sued by a scam character I know it can happen and being sued is very stressful (for me, at least). justice is not necessarily served and, even if it is, it's not worth it.

I've never sold on ebay but might try that. At least I won't have to deal with the test ride potential, assuming out of town buyer. no doubt ebay has its own list of potential scammers and their methods.

ChargersWI

We bought our tandem from an individual through Craigslist. We had never ridden one before. He had me ride stoker with him as captain for a couple minutes. Then he had my wife ride stoker with him for a couple minutes. Then he sent us out without him. Worked well for all.

StephenH

First tandem ride I ever did was a 200k. It's different, but not THAT hard.

twocicle

Less is more. "As is" should be fine.

BNB

Great idea. As long as neither are too heavy ...

Philly Tandem

I've sold quite a few used tandems over the years. Some were due to personal upgrades, others were ones that I bought, fixed up, and resold (aka, "flipped," I guess) as a hobby. Most have been sold locally on Craigslist, although I've shipped one or two across the country (and have bought a few from across the country, too). Always start with CL, as it's a pain to ship a tandem, not to mention very expensive (unless a coupled tandem).

I always write up a bill of sale, with the tandem make and model, serial number, and clearly state "sold as is with no warranty expressed or implied." Both parties sign it. I can't say that this is legally enforceable, but at least there is some record of the transaction. (Some may say an all-cash, off the books, transaction is safer because it can't be proved that you sold the bike, but if you've advertised it somehow there's always the possibility of finding a record somewhere.)

For cheaper used tandems, you have to decide if you want to play "tandem educator/matchmaker" or just sell the bike. I've often invested a lot of time educating the buyers, who are often first-time tandemists with no real experience. Decide up front if you want to invest that amount of time to educate, answer questions, etc.

bockwho

with green tandem teams

I put the green captain in the stoker spot and do 4 miles
then I put the green stoker in the stoker spot and do 4 miles
then I put the green captain on for a few miles.
then I stoke with the green captain
then I put the green team together and smile... typically I don't sell my bikes but I keep a set for friends to try out....

L134 

Would BSC be interested in Thule roof-top tandem rack?