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Can I improve BB7 rear disc braking on Co-Motion Speedster?

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Can I improve BB7 rear disc braking on Co-Motion Speedster?

Old 01-12-19, 03:35 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by sapporoguy View Post
Two avid rotors came with this tandem. Pix below. Condition being equal, is one model preferable?
Slotted type, but it tends to buzz a bit more when applying brakes.
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Old 01-12-19, 03:39 PM
  #27  
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Wanted to add, almost appears the slotted disc has been overheated to some extent.
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Old 01-12-19, 04:35 PM
  #28  
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I have and 05 Speedster with BB7's front and rear with 203 ice tech rotors, Avid metallic pads and jagwire housing. One finger braking front and rear, maybe need two when dropping down 15+% grades or lots of steep switchback. We're not light either - over 350lbs combined. I always wonder why some people have issues with braking with this setup.
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Old 01-12-19, 04:44 PM
  #29  
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I'm running a mix of these two types on my single winter bike. The first type gives a tiny more grip (to my feeling), but makes more noise when wet or contaminated. On the first type, I can sometimes feel the holes when braking, because they are so widely spaced out but that's nothing to be worried about. The differences are small though. Give it a try and see what you like most.
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Old 01-13-19, 05:54 AM
  #30  
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To the OP, I switched our former road tandem from BB-7 to Hy/Rd a short while before upgrading the whole bike to one with Di2 full hydraulic, so I have experience with a number of options. If you can fit the Hy/Rd without issues (I had to switch the rear rotor from 203mm to 200mm to make it fit... yes it was that close) I highly recommend them. The BB-7's weren't bad, but the Hy/Rds were noticably better.

Don't underestimate the importance of the self adjusting feature. BB-7s are at their optimal adjustment until the first time you use the brakes. I've had to adjust the pads mid-ride on routes with multiple long descents.

I modified both Hy/Rd lever arms to make them work better with the Campy levers on that bike which have a slightly shorter pull than some others.

The Shimano full hydraulic have eveneven be feel than the Hy-Rd, but I've found them to be noisier (Ice Text rotors vs Avid rotors, stock pads on both). I was very impressed by the Hy/Rds.
​​​​​​
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Old 01-13-19, 03:52 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Alan_F View Post
To the OP, I switched our former road tandem from BB-7 to Hy/Rd a short while before upgrading the whole bike to one with Di2 full hydraulic, so I have experience with a number of options. -sn
​​​​​​
Thanks! You anticipated my next question, whether anyone had a direct comparison after switching out just that one thing. I may do that (Hy/Rd) after going through all the steps suggested here for my BB7 setup.

Speaking of which, can anyone tell me if this is a metal pad? (And are my fingers dirty enough?)
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Old 01-13-19, 04:37 PM
  #32  
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Avid sells metallic and organic pads. I don’t think you can easily tell from the lot code.

unless the pads look like the have no wear, I would recommend springing for new metallic pads.
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Old 01-13-19, 08:36 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Alcanbrad View Post
I would recommend springing for new metallic pads.
Will do.
I unwrapped my front right bar to replace the cable with Jagwire and then looked closely at the faint lettering on the housing.
doh!
I already had Jawire! (Bought this tandem used)
sanded and cleaned rotors.
Now will get metallic pads.
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Old 01-13-19, 11:35 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by joe@vwvortex View Post
I have and 05 Speedster with BB7's front and rear with 203 ice tech rotors, Avid metallic pads and jagwire housing. One finger braking front and rear.
OP here. Do you think it would be worth switching to Ice Tech from my Avid rotors? They seem pretty pricey, but braking is something I'm willing to pay for if the payback is good.
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Old 01-14-19, 05:12 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by sapporoguy View Post
OP here. Do you think it would be worth switching to Ice Tech from my Avid rotors? They seem pretty pricey, but braking is something I'm willing to pay for if the payback is good.
As for that brake pad being metallic or not, show a photo of the friction material after it has been cleaned. Also, clean new pads and the discs prior to installing new pads.

As for swapping to Shimano discs, myself I would test the current setup after giving it some care, then if you decide more is needed, then swap discs. Possibly even swap to other calipers some are suggesting.

Regarding your current cables, change them anyway. Start fresh since cable do get stressed and can have issues not easily seen unless the ends are removed or more. With new cables, and everything cleaned and adjusted correctly, you will know if at peak performance the brakes meet your needs. If not, then make big changes.

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Old 01-14-19, 06:01 AM
  #36  
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If you are considering new housing I would recommend taking a look at the Jagwire Elite Link system.

https://jagwire.com/products/diy-cable-kits

this is forms the cable housing from 10mm aluminum ferrules with a super slick nylon lining that you thread the ferrules onto and cut off the excess once you decide on the length.. I put these on my Carrera and have been very happy with them. They are a bit pricey but very good in my opinion.

They come with short sections of compressionless housing that run from the levers to just past the bar tape.

i believe there are one or two other vendors that offer a similar solution .

others on the forum may have pros or cons about this solution. I have been very happy them for both braking and shifting.
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Old 01-17-19, 09:58 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by sapporoguy View Post
OP here. Do you think it would be worth switching to Ice Tech from my Avid rotors? They seem pretty pricey, but braking is something I'm willing to pay for if the payback is good.
I did it when my old rotors were worn out. I think they are stiffer laterally, and that helps keep them truer. Not sure if it's worth the expense unless you need to change them.
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Old 01-17-19, 10:47 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by joe@vwvortex View Post
I did it when my old rotors were worn out. I think they are stiffer laterally, and that helps keep them truer. Not sure if it's worth the expense unless you need to change them.
Agreed. The Ice-Tech have a better, more rigid spider. This does seem to help with warpage. Probably at least as much as the aluminum layer better distributing the heat load.

My local boutique bike maker has a melted 203 (200mm?) Ice-Tech on the wall of his shop. It was on a tandem and got severely overheated until it failed completly. They don't recommend Ice-Tech for tandems anymore because of that 1 incident. (No word of conditions or the teams descending technique or ability) If it were me though, I'd say considering the terrain you ride in, the benefits may well outweigh the risk given the thousands of tandems roaming the world.

IMO: The Ice-Tech's are better, though there is nothing wrong with Avid.

The OP's rotors do appear awful blue.

OP: I'd look at pads, glazing, & changing descending technique. You would do well with keeping more heat out of the system. Do you drag the rear brake on descents? Doing so never lets the system dissipate heat.
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Old 01-17-19, 04:36 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by base2 View Post
OP: I'd look at pads, glazing, & changing descending technique. You would do well with keeping more heat out of the system. Do you drag the rear brake on descents? Doing so never lets the system dissipate heat.
This Co-Motion is relatively new to us. On the few descents we've had, we go slow and use both brakes intermittently--not as drag brakes. They work OK, but not as well as I expected. Our older bike, a Santana with rim brakes, seemed to stop just as well.
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Old 01-17-19, 05:29 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by sapporoguy View Post
This Co-Motion is relatively new to us. On the few descents we've had, we go slow and use both brakes intermittently--not as drag brakes. They work OK, but not as well as I expected. Our older bike, a Santana with rim brakes, seemed to stop just as well.
Ok, alright. No worries then. There's no telling about the original owner, so maybe what you have is left over effects from that.

In any case the advice you've received here from others is pretty top notch stuff.

Good Luck,
Aaron
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Old 01-17-19, 06:08 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by base2 View Post
Ok, alright. No worries then. There's no telling about the original owner, so maybe what you have is left over effects from that.

In any case the advice you've received here from others is pretty top notch stuff.

Good Luck,
Aaron
Yep. Lots of good advice! I'm putting in new Jagwire, have sanded the rotor and will get new metallic pads--and see how it goes.
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Old 01-18-19, 12:02 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by base2 View Post
Agreed. The Ice-Tech have a better, more rigid spider. This does seem to help with warpage. Probably at least as much as the aluminum layer better distributing the heat load.

My local boutique bike maker has a melted 203 (200mm?) Ice-Tech on the wall of his shop. It was on a tandem and got severely overheated until it failed completly. They don't recommend Ice-Tech for tandems anymore because of that 1 incident. (No word of conditions or the teams descending technique or ability) If it were me though, I'd say considering the terrain you ride in, the benefits may well outweigh the risk given the thousands of tandems roaming the world.

IMO: The Ice-Tech's are better, though there is nothing wrong with Avid.

The OP's rotors do appear awful blue.

OP: I'd look at pads, glazing, & changing descending technique. You would do well with keeping more heat out of the system. Do you drag the rear brake on descents? Doing so never lets the system dissipate heat.
I've heard the stories. I haven't had any issue with them. Shimano also makes an all steel rotor with a similar spider. It's the SM-RT76.
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Old 01-18-19, 04:11 PM
  #43  
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We have HY/RD on both ends of our Calfee Tetra and I love them. I recently upgraded the BB7 rear on our Co-Motion quad to the HY/RD as well. It is an improvement, especially on the maintenance front. I live in the dusty southwest and tend to prefer organic pads on both mountain bikes and road disk; just because they're quieter when dusty.
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Old 01-19-19, 04:29 PM
  #44  
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Anyone have experience with Hope rotors vs. Ice Tech on tandem rear? Hope spiders sure look cool.
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Old 01-19-19, 05:01 PM
  #45  
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No experience with Ice Tech, but I have Hope rotors, front and rear, and am very pleased with them. Very beefy spider and rotor. I had a small clearance issue with the front fort, but that was attributed to the fork which Rick at House of Tandems helped me resolve. He said I would be pleased with the Hope rotors and I am.. I too like bling factor. I matched the spider to the Jagwire Elite Link cable casing and the rotor bolts to the color of bike. The picture is not great, but you get the idea.

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Old 01-19-19, 10:26 PM
  #46  
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To the OP: I'm not clear if you have disc brakes front and rear, or rear only. (One of your later posts refers to two rotors that came with the bike. One is shown mounted on a rear wheel but the other, is it on the front wheel or is it a spare rear without a cassette?) Reason I'm asking is that no rear brake contributes very much to stopping a vehicle. Even on a tandem the weight shifts forward during deceleration and the front tire still does most of the stopping. So if you have only a rear disc brake it won't stop any better than a V-brake, as you note. If it stops as well as your old V-brake, it may already be optimized. The chief appeal of disc brakes for tandems is that they work a little better than rim brakes in the rain (more predictably at least) and avoid the hazard of melting an inner tube or plastic rim strip from prolonged downhill braking. (And as a way of getting rid of V-brakes!) They don't stop any faster than short-reach rim brakes in dry conditions in my experience. We use two short-reach dual-pivot rim brakes for all our riding locally. We are light and our hills are steep but short. We brake hard & often enough to wear out front pads but not for long enough at once to overheat a rim. For mountain touring we use BB7 discs front and rear for the reasons alluded to. (Of course not all bikes can use short-reach rim brakes, which is why cantilevers were invented.)

So, if you have discs front and rear, my next question is, Does the front work well, or does it suffer the same complaints? If you are getting poor performance from a front disc, than you really have a tougher problem because sag-weight of cable, friction, return spring force, all of those fixable issues that plague rear brakes should not be operating up front. If the front works well but the rear is disappointing by comparison, try the excellent tweaks suggested by the other posters -- we've used 'em all, and they do improve things -- but in the end you may be satisfied if you think of the rear disc as a device for augmenting heat dissipation (though not as good at that as a drum brake so you need to use the front, too) and the front as your actual STOP! -ing device. (Yes I know that all braking is heat-dissipation; I'm just thinking about which lever to grab harder when a car turns left in front of you.) I don't think any rear brake will slow a tandem down much if applied alone, without the front. I hope I'm not stating what's already obvious to you, since you cross a lot more contour lines in a day than we do....
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Old 01-20-19, 12:40 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by conspiratemus1 View Post
To the OP: I'm not clear if you have disc brakes front and rear, or rear only.
Rear only. Front is V-brake, although there are posts for rear V-brakes, too.
Judging from your post, perhaps our rear disc is optimized and I'm expecting too much of it. For some reason, I though a disk should brake better than a V, but I've never had disc brakes before.
I do use the front brake for the big share of braking and am happy with the V up there.
Maybe I'll add V-brakes to the back and give the stoker the lever. That would make her happy when I'm getting too enthusiastic for her downhill!
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Old 01-20-19, 12:43 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by Alcanbrad View Post
No experience with Ice Tech, but I have Hope rotors, front and rear, and am very pleased with them. Very beefy spider and rotor. I had a small clearance issue with the front fort, but that was attributed to the fork which Rick at House of Tandems helped me resolve. He said I would be pleased with the Hope rotors and I am.. I too like bling factor. I matched the spider to the Jagwire Elite Link cable casing and the rotor bolts to the color of bike. The picture is not great, but you get the idea.

Now that looks sweet!
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Old 01-20-19, 04:19 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Alcanbrad View Post
No experience with Ice Tech, but I have Hope rotors, front and rear, and am very pleased with them. Very beefy spider and rotor. I had a small clearance issue with the front fort, but that was attributed to the fork which Rick at House of Tandems helped me resolve. He said I would be pleased with the Hope rotors and I am.. I too like bling factor. I matched the spider to the Jagwire Elite Link cable casing and the rotor bolts to the color of bike. The picture is not great, but you get the idea.

Aluminum or anodized titanium disc to hub bolts?
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Old 01-20-19, 05:28 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by PMK View Post


Aluminum or anodized titanium disc to hub bolts?
aluminum
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