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Recommendations for Alloy deep-rim wheelset for tandem?

Old 04-06-20, 11:26 AM
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Recommendations for Alloy deep-rim wheelset for tandem?

Looking for recommandations for good alloy deep-rim wheelset for road tandem ? (40 to 55 mm; rim brake)
Thanks !
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Old 04-06-20, 03:21 PM
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EERO | H PLUS SON or SL42 | H PLUS SON

Come with NMSW or MSW, I built a pair of these, 36 spokes on Hope hubs, they ride like a dream and look good to
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Old 04-06-20, 03:24 PM
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This is how they look built up
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Old 04-06-20, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Juke41 View Post
EERO | H PLUS SON or SL42 | H PLUS SON

Come with NMSW or MSW, I built a pair of these, 36 spokes on Hope hubs, they ride like a dream and look good to
Looks like you're using discs.
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Old 04-06-20, 04:57 PM
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I don't think there's any such thing. We've been using 36H Kinlin XC 279, but can't get them anymore. Wonderful rim for rim brakes. Aforce AL33 rims from Bikehubstore are available, but only up to 32H. 32.5mm deep X 23mm outside. I built up the 24H version of these for the rear on a single bike, but depending on weight 24H might not be good for a tandem. I don't know of a suitable 36H deep alu rim on the market right now. If anyone does, please reply. I'll run out of my stock of Kinlins in another year or two.
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Old 04-06-20, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by SpinnerPC View Post
Looking for recommandations for good alloy deep-rim wheelset for road tandem ? (40 to 55 mm; rim brake)
Thanks !
How come you want an alloy rim so deep? If youíre going for aerodynamic drag reduction, youíre better off matching the width of your tire to the rim. The DT RR511, Kinlin XR31T, HED Belgium +, Velocity Cliffhanger are solid choices at 23, 24, 25, and 30mm widths, respectively.

Keeping with the 40-55mm goal, youíre limited to H+Son SL42 and a host of copies of it. At 19mm wide externally, itís aero benefit is limited to 18-21mm tires. The SL42 does make a good heatsink, though.

Further down that rabbit hole, there are loads of 50mm deep x 20mm wide rims in tons of colors for the fixie crowd from ~12 years ago. Those rims weigh about 900-1100g each (or twice what normal rims weigh).

Finally, if you want an aero advantage, but wonít be cooking the rims on hills, you can get carbon rims with an alloy braking surface. These are generally available in 23 and 25mm widths and 38, 50, 60, and 80mm depths. Youíd generally have to get those straight from the manufacturer or your wheel builder. Iím fairly confident that a tandem team could melt the epoxy on these if youíre not careful.
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Old 04-07-20, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Juke41 View Post
This is how they look built up
Looks good ! What is the tire size ?
I'd like to mount a 700x30C or 32C like the Conti Grand Prix 5000. Your SL42 would be too narrow
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Old 04-07-20, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
I don't think there's any such thing. We've been using 36H Kinlin XC 279, but can't get them anymore. Wonderful rim for rim brakes. Aforce AL33 rims from Bikehubstore are available, but only up to 32H. 32.5mm deep X 23mm outside. I built up the 24H version of these for the rear on a single bike, but depending on weight 24H might not be good for a tandem. I don't know of a suitable 36H deep alu rim on the market right now. If anyone does, please reply. I'll run out of my stock of Kinlins in another year or two.
About 25 years ago, on a single road bike, I used to ride a pair of Campagnolo Zonda alloy deep-rim 28H wheelset. These were undestructible. And I would not have been afraid to ride with them on the tandem. But I sold them long ago, and Campy does not make the same wheel anymore.
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Old 04-07-20, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by OneIsAllYouNeed View Post
How come you want an alloy rim so deep? If youíre going for aerodynamic drag reduction, youíre better off matching the width of your tire to the rim. The DT RR511, Kinlin XR31T, HED Belgium +, Velocity Cliffhanger are solid choices at 23, 24, 25, and 30mm widths, respectively.

Keeping with the 40-55mm goal, youíre limited to H+Son SL42 and a host of copies of it. At 19mm wide externally, itís aero benefit is limited to 18-21mm tires. The SL42 does make a good heatsink, though.

Further down that rabbit hole, there are loads of 50mm deep x 20mm wide rims in tons of colors for the fixie crowd from ~12 years ago. Those rims weigh about 900-1100g each (or twice what normal rims weigh).

Finally, if you want an aero advantage, but wonít be cooking the rims on hills, you can get carbon rims with an alloy braking surface. These are generally available in 23 and 25mm widths and 38, 50, 60, and 80mm depths. Youíd generally have to get those straight from the manufacturer or your wheel builder. Iím fairly confident that a tandem team could melt the epoxy on these if youíre not careful.
Thanks for your reply. We mostly ride our tandem around where we live and there's no long hills; mostly rolling or flat. Some sharp pitches (12-20% for less than 500m). On the flat we regularly have a cruising speed of 35-40 Kmh so the explanation for aero wheels. I do want a 'wider' rim to accomodate 700x28C to 700x32C. For my road and TT bikes, I own a few sets or Carbon wheels ranging from 32 to 88 mm. But since the tandem has only rim brakes, I would not consider carbon wheels.
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Old 04-07-20, 11:43 AM
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They are Conti Grand Prix 700 x 28mm, 98% of our riding is on tarmac roads, no complaints from the stoker !
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Old 04-07-20, 01:10 PM
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How many spokes do your current hubs have? My guess is 36. If so, would you consider going down to 32 and new hubs? My guess is that spoke count would be fine up to team weight maybe 350 lbs? Then you could use the Aforce rims which have the advantage of being available.
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Old 04-08-20, 04:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
How many spokes do your current hubs have? My guess is 36. If so, would you consider going down to 32 and new hubs? My guess is that spoke count would be fine up to team weight maybe 350 lbs? Then you could use the Aforce rims which have the advantage of being available.
Actual wheelset is Mavic T520 40 spokes. Wheels are great for touring and commuting. But an additionnal and more performant wheelset would be nice for our 'sportive' ride. I'd like to find a strong alloy deep-rim with at least 28 spokes. Combine weight is about 320 lbs ( captain 6'4" 210 + stoker 5'3" 110 ) I read somewhere A-Force are limited to 125kg.
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Old 04-08-20, 04:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Juke41 View Post
They are Conti Grand Prix 700 x 28mm, 98% of our riding is on tarmac roads, no complaints from the stoker !
If I may ask, what is your combined weight ?
Would you have a wider rim, still having a 40+mm depth ?
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Old 04-08-20, 08:00 AM
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Spiraling in on the solution here. For perceivable aerodynamic improvement, I'd recommend the Velocity Cliffhanger, 32 bladed spokes (I build with Sapim CX-Sprint for most of my tandem wheels), and a tire that's labelled 25-28mm. The tire will balloon up to 30-32mm inflated on those rims. Hubs: either White Industries XMR or DT Swiss 350.
For a lifetime of durability, same as above with 36 spokes.

For *looking* aero, go with the Aforce AL33 with 32 spokes. They're optimized for 23mm tires. With 30mm tires, they're just as aero as box rims.

For a lighter weight solution that looks aero (but really isn't), go with the Kinlin XR31T rims. They'll spin up faster than the other options here, but your cruising speed and top speed will be lower than with the Cliffhangers.
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Old 04-08-20, 08:49 AM
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Here's a Velocity Blunt SS rim with a Conti GP4000S II 28mm tire. The Blunt SS has the same outer width (30mm) as the Cliffhanger, and is slightly wider internally (26.6 vs 25mm).
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Old 04-08-20, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by OneIsAllYouNeed View Post
Here's a Velocity Blunt SS rim with a Conti GP4000S II 28mm tire. The Blunt SS has the same outer width (30mm) as the Cliffhanger, and is slightly wider internally (26.6 vs 25mm).
That looks really nice. Velocity is locked down, not shipping for the duration. Any stocking dealers?

Besides areo, there are two other reasons for running deep alu rums: heat dissipation, and stiffness. Those two things IMO are way more important than the tiny aero contribution. On a tandem, the percent drag reduction is much less than on a single. Before I realized how large the heat dissipation advantage would be, we blew a few tires off shallower rims. For us, it's heat, stiffness, aero, in that order.

Even though the Velocity website is currently non-functional, one can still see the pages for the individual rims by googling the rim designation. That Blunt SS is only 425g.
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Old 04-08-20, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
That looks really nice. Velocity is locked down, not shipping for the duration. Any stocking dealers?

Besides areo, there are two other reasons for running deep alu rums: heat dissipation, and stiffness. Those two things IMO are way more important than the tiny aero contribution. On a tandem, the percent drag reduction is much less than on a single. Before I realized how large the heat dissipation advantage would be, we blew a few tires off shallower rims. For us, it's heat, stiffness, aero, in that order.

Even though the Velocity website is currently non-functional, one can still see the pages for the individual rims by googling the rim designation. That Blunt SS is only 425g.
QBP and BWP have inventory of many Velocity rims. I imagine many LBS have a random smattering.

The OP didn't seem overly concerned about long descents. That said, the Cliffhanger is a heavy rim with a good amount of surface area. It would be totally fine for a loaded touring tandem.

To be clear, I don't recommend the Blunt SS for most tandem teams. It's a *really* light rim. It wouldn't hold up under heavy use with a team over 250lb. I presented pictures of the Blunt SS because I had them from wheels I built for a friend's gravel bike. The Cliffhanger and Blunt SS have almost the same outer dimensions, so its a fair pictorial estimate.
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Old 04-08-20, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by OneIsAllYouNeed View Post
QBP and BWP have inventory of many Velocity rims. I imagine many LBS have a random smattering.

The OP didn't seem overly concerned about long descents. That said, the Cliffhanger is a heavy rim with a good amount of surface area. It would be totally fine for a loaded touring tandem.

To be clear, I don't recommend the Blunt SS for most tandem teams. It's a *really* light rim. It wouldn't hold up under heavy use with a team over 250lb. I presented pictures of the Blunt SS because I had them from wheels I built for a friend's gravel bike. The Cliffhanger and Blunt SS have almost the same outer dimensions, so its a fair pictorial estimate.
We toured on Velocity Deep Vs, 550g and Kinlin XC279, 490g. We have a touring wheel with a Arai drum though. Wouldn't tour a rim-brake tandem into unknown terrain without it. The Cliffhanger is 675g, but is an essentially box-section rim.

The Aforce is 26mm outside, 505g, seems like the best on the market right now. 32H. Too bad the ceramic version doesn't come in 32H.
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Old 02-11-21, 10:21 AM
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Heat related tire/tube blowout

Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
That looks really nice. Velocity is locked down, not shipping for the duration. Any stocking dealers?

Besides areo, there are two other reasons for running deep alu rums: heat dissipation, and stiffness. Those two things IMO are way more important than the tiny aero contribution. On a tandem, the percent drag reduction is much less than on a single. Before I realized how large the heat dissipation advantage would be, we blew a few tires off shallower rims. For us, it's heat, stiffness, aero, in that order.

Even though the Velocity website is currently non-functional, one can still see the pages for the individual rims by googling the rim designation. That Blunt SS is only 425g.
Can you provide more information on the mechanism of your heat related blowout(s)? I am curious to know if I should moved to disc brakes front and back. I would like to build a set of 36 spoke wheels with something like a HED Belgium plus, which as you know is not available in 36.

I had a recent blowout on my V-brake tandem front wheel. It was on an uphill, where the rear disc brake wheel was heavily weighted. On this segment, there had been no braking for about he prior 10 minutes, but both tires were carefully stored 32 mm new old stock Panaracer T-servs. After the flat, I found that the tire bead had separated, and it was replaced with a spare tire we were carrying on the ride. I am uncertain whether the my blowout was heat-related or age-related.
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Old 02-11-21, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by mddobbs View Post
Can you provide more information on the mechanism of your heat related blowout(s)? I am curious to know if I should moved to disc brakes front and back. I would like to build a set of 36 spoke wheels with something like a HED Belgium plus, which as you know is not available in 36.

I had a recent blowout on my V-brake tandem front wheel. It was on an uphill, where the rear disc brake wheel was heavily weighted. On this segment, there had been no braking for about he prior 10 minutes, but both tires were carefully stored 32 mm new old stock Panaracer T-servs. After the flat, I found that the tire bead had separated, and it was replaced with a spare tire we were carrying on the ride. I am uncertain whether the my blowout was heat-related or age-related.
The front tire issue you write about is, I would say, not a blowout really, just a tire failure. It happens on tandems. I have a theory that it's caused by sidewall wear, right where the rim meets the tire, so almost right at the tire bead.

My blowouts were all on a light Velocity rim which isn't made anymore. It was almost a box rim. We bought a used 2003 CoMo Speedster and they came on the bike. They were all from hard braking on relatively short, steep downhills, where it was impossible to let the bike run. Luckily we were never going fast enough to do any damage. Two of them were with a Conti tire with reflective sidewalls which also isn't made anymore. My opinion is that the reflective material was very slick and allowed the bead to pop off the rim. Those tires weren't made for long.

I switched the bike to Velocity Deep-V rims and never had another problem. When I wanted wider rims, I switched to Kinlin 279 which don't seem to be imported anymore. I've pasted a cross section just to show a rim with which I've had no problems whatsoever on our V-braked bike, many, many rides in the mountains, etc. Our team weight is 287 lbs. In my opinion, the benefit of deep rims is purely the amount of surface area in the wind, not the weight.
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Old 02-12-21, 08:30 AM
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Alloy Tandem Rims

Thanks for your quick feedback. We have a bit of shared history! Our tandem is an early 2000's Comotion Supremo,and our team weight is 285 lbs. I built it up from a frame, but despite using fairly light parts, it still weighs about 40 pounds. It has a rear disc mount, and Wound-up carbon V-brake fork. The current wheels are silver colored 36 hole DaVinci V-22 rims on Chris King tandem disc hubs. I also recently acquired a Wound Up fork with disc brake mounts, but I have not mounted it yet. The wheels have been rock solid, but I have been yearning for conventional rims that are relatively light, a bit taller, a bit deeper, and a bit "blacker." Velocity's Dyad and Deep V only partially meet these desires.

You are not the first rider to recommend the Kinlin 279 rim for a tandem build. I owned and included a nice 28 hole 279 wheel set as an inducement to sell on a single bike. Sadly, I don't find these rims in e.g. 36 hole available anymore. I have recently built lower spoke count varieties of Kinlin's Xr22t, Xr26t, and Xr31t rims, only the last of which I can find above 32 hole. None of these rims have seen heavy use, but all have a fine finish and built up well. My latest idea was to use a 36 hole Xr31t MSW on the front (disc or V-brake), and a 36 hole Dyad on the rear. I am a bit worried that the 31 may not be strong enough for the tandem. I am still looking for a good deal on a second 36 hole rear 145 mm hub so I don't have to disassemble and mess up the current wheel set!

Now that my stoker and I are both retired, we are riding more. However, we are heavily invested in our road and mountain single bikes, so the tandem is a hobby project that I can't invest too much on, especially if my knees go out again.
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Old 02-12-21, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by mddobbs View Post
Thanks for your quick feedback. We have a bit of shared history! Our tandem is an early 2000's Comotion Supremo,and our team weight is 285 lbs. I built it up from a frame, but despite using fairly light parts, it still weighs about 40 pounds. It has a rear disc mount, and Wound-up carbon V-brake fork. The current wheels are silver colored 36 hole DaVinci V-22 rims on Chris King tandem disc hubs. I also recently acquired a Wound Up fork with disc brake mounts, but I have not mounted it yet. The wheels have been rock solid, but I have been yearning for conventional rims that are relatively light, a bit taller, a bit deeper, and a bit "blacker." Velocity's Dyad and Deep V only partially meet these desires.

You are not the first rider to recommend the Kinlin 279 rim for a tandem build. I owned and included a nice 28 hole 279 wheel set as an inducement to sell on a single bike. Sadly, I don't find these rims in e.g. 36 hole available anymore. I have recently built lower spoke count varieties of Kinlin's Xr22t, Xr26t, and Xr31t rims, only the last of which I can find above 32 hole. None of these rims have seen heavy use, but all have a fine finish and built up well. My latest idea was to use a 36 hole Xr31t MSW on the front (disc or V-brake), and a 36 hole Dyad on the rear. I am a bit worried that the 31 may not be strong enough for the tandem. I am still looking for a good deal on a second 36 hole rear 145 mm hub so I don't have to disassemble and mess up the current wheel set!

Now that my stoker and I are both retired, we are riding more. However, we are heavily invested in our road and mountain single bikes, so the tandem is a hobby project that I can't invest too much on, especially if my knees go out again.
We also have the Wound Up fork. Nice. How about this: https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m20b0s11.../KINLIN-XC-279

Sounds like you do your own builds. I use CX-Ray spokes because why not. Well, money of course, but they sure do look good.
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Old 02-12-21, 11:54 AM
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Kinlin 279

My old 28 spoke 279's were built with CX-rays. Glad to hear that you feel they are strong enough for a tandem. For self-built, I might use Sapim Lasers so I don't have to worry too much about twisting.

I saw that 279 listing from Spa Cycles, but they have a cryptic message about no longer shipping in Europe. It was not clear to me if they would ship to the US, but if so, I'll bet it would be expensive (based on increased EBay shipping rates). I'll check with them.

Thanks for your help!
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Old 02-12-21, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by mddobbs View Post
My old 28 spoke 279's were built with CX-rays. Glad to hear that you feel they are strong enough for a tandem. For self-built, I might use Sapim Lasers so I don't have to worry too much about twisting.

I saw that 279 listing from Spa Cycles, but they have a cryptic message about no longer shipping in Europe. It was not clear to me if they would ship to the US, but if so, I'll bet it would be expensive (based on increased EBay shipping rates). I'll check with them.

Thanks for your help!
CX-Rays are actually easier. You get the Sapim CX-Ray spoke tool, which prevents spoke wind-up, which also solves a chain of issues related to the wind-up of round spokes. I much prefer my spokes not wound up and this makes it so easy. Let us know what you find out about availability and shipping. I have a couple spare 36H rims but then I'll be looking too.
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Old 02-12-21, 06:33 PM
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mddobbs
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Kinlin Rims from Spa Cycles, UK

Here was a quick reply from Spa Cycles regarding shipping Kinlin Rims to the US:

"I'm sorry Mark,
We can ship rims to US, it's just too expensive.
Kind regards,
John."
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