Scooter123

Hi Folks,

My wife and I have been riding our Santana road tandem for about six months now. We're slowly getting the hang of it. On some recent rides, we've hardly even bickered

There's a situation that's come up several times when we're riding on hills. As the captain, I rely on pedaling feedback to know when to shift gears. In general, if the pedaling feels too easy I shift up. If it feels harder, I downshift.

Here's what's been happening. Going up hills, I use a lower gear than I normally would to take it easier on my wife. As we approach the crest of the hill, I try to detect when the pedaling eases, in order to decide when to shift up. When it feels easy enough, I shift up. At this point, my stoker begins breathing hard and gasps, "Why did you shift up!"

What's happening is that my wife is pushing harder on the pedals than I am, and as a result I think that the hill is leveling off too soon. I'm not sure why she does this; she may think I'm tired, or that she needs to do more of the work. We've talked about it, and neither of us is certain.

Whatever the reason, I can't tell that she's working harder than I am until I hear her start breathing loudly. In traffic and wind, that's not always easy. It's usually too late, and I take some heat for it. I've always based my gear shifting decisions on pedal resistance, but now I'm not sure that's enough.

How do other captains and stokers coordinate their effort on hills? Is this something you just learn by trial and error over time? Are there other cues or signals that people use?

Thanks much!

--
Scott C.

merlinextraligh

I'd suggest a cycle computer with cadence. Also maybe heart rate monitors. That way you can change gears based upon optimal cadence, and she can learn to pedal softer or harder based upon desired HR zones.

edzo

I suggest you two talk during the ride


if U are overpowering your stoker
have the stoker bark out cue points such as:
up up up or
down down down

and cadence cadence cadence

DrPete 

Mollie and I had a similar problem... As the less experienced cyclist, she was a masher. We eventually settled into a rhythm where I downshift less for smaller rolling hills and let her just explode up them. For longer climbs I just settle us into a faster cadence.

When a hill comes up, I try to verbally cue her about the type of hill. For shorter hills we tend to attack them, for longer hills we'll downshift and go for the faster cadence. It's really worked out great for us. Communication and experience are really the keys.

Good luck, and don't give up! It'll come!
DrPete

Old Hammer Boy

Scott,

I think eventually you'll overcome this differential. Like edzo says--talk. Like a quick "how ya doin' hun." The heart rate monitor thing isn't a bad idea either, but unless you're monitoring her's, or she tells you her rate, how would you know? And then too, it can get to be a competitive thing~"My heart rate % was higher than yours"~. It's just as easy to report degree of fatigue (like I need you to down shift, please, or can I upshift now? or Boy, I could sure use a little more effort, if you can.). As we are doing a challenging climb, we probably talk more than any other time for this very reason, just asking how eachother is doing. Do this, and it will all work out-eventually. A lot of empathy for your stoker will go a long way. Remember, the stoker is never wrong. After a while you'll be able to feel those gear shift requirements, second nature. I promise!! Once you get there, there's nothing like that wonderful team spirit to strengthen a relationship.

regomatic

It sounds like your issue is mostly at the point of cresting the hill. We've been tandeming for almost a year and like most other teams, I'm the experienced rider. It took us a while to find some of our own rythym up hills and over them, and we're still learning.
Here's what we found works best for us so far; she puts in whatever effort she can uphill for as long as she can and I downshift as neccessary to get us up the hill or to the approach of the crest. As soon as I shift into the higher gear near the crest it signals her effort is optional. Sometimes she's got enough left to mash it over the top and we blast it through, sometimes she's done and I go back a gear or two, sometimes I have enough left to push us over the top and she's more rested to get us up the next one.
We communicated a lot on this for the first couple of months, now we only occasionaly have to talk about it on particulary tough hills or about strategy to keep up with the 1/2 bikes.

lmzimmer

Call your shifts ( "shift") right before you do this, my wife and I have a variation of this problem in that she likes to stand on hills and as we shift down climbing she also notices the change in cadence/effort and will stand just as I will shift. She now announces "standing"and I "shifting"- it makes for a much smoother ride. If you have trouble hearing each other (on noisy roads) consider a tandem talk headset.

TeamTi700

1.) The Stoker Is Always Right.

This is the rule in tandeming.

I would second the recommendation to use a computer with cadence. In our case, we tend to keep our rpms between 90 and 105 regardless of terrain. Once the two of you have found the rpm range that works best for you, you both will be able to anticipate the next shift. I would also second the calling out of shifts until you reach the point that your stoker can sense when you are going to shift.

If you decide to use heart rate monitors, keep in mind that they will interfere with each other unless you buy them with different transmiting frequencies. I think Polar calls this feature "Own Code."

Rick
2000 TeamTi700
TH=2.50

gregm

It's actually "The stoker makes no mistakes." The difference may sound trivial, but there's actually something to this when you think about it for a bit.

-Greg

zonatandem

Computers/monitors are nice, but don't really tell pilot/stoker what 'you' are doing, or planning to do.
Communicate/communicate!
That's the key to becoming/being a tandem team.
And communication is a two-way street: You tell/ask her . . . she tells/asks you.
Communicate and you'll enjoy your tandeming more.
My stoker of 30+ years has always put in 100% effort, although she has only 75% lung capacity.
We no longer do the 'hard' stuff, but still manage 100 miles a week. We are both in our 70s and still 'communicate!'

Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

galen_52657

I think your issue is rooted in the lack of cycling experience of your stoker. Inexperienced cyclists tend to apply power in bursts as apposed to a more linear output of experienced riders. When your wife sees the top of the hill, she puts in a little more effort to get the climbing over with. The bike speeds up, you shift to a harder gear and she feels you are demanding yet more effort, which she does not appreciate.

My girlfriend is the same way both on the tandem and when she riders her single. I coach her as best I can....

What I try to tell my stoker is to go steady but not too hard on the climbs, top the crests of the hills with enough energy that you can power over the top, get up to speed and then rest.

It works some times....

BananaMan

When we first started out on the tandem my wife would poke me in the left buttock to shift down and right buttock to shift up.

It worked, and what is more, it was so annoying (in an entertaining way) that we soon learnt to ride in synch without having to think about it.

merlinextraligh

My point, along the lines of Galen's take, is that the stoker needs to learn to regulate her own effort. How hard she pedals, and whether she blows herself up is only partly dependent on the gear or the cadence. She needs to learn to regulate her own effort. Of course talking helps, and one topic should be for her to pedal within herself.

regomatic

My first post did did say we "communicated a lot" and now "we only occasionaly have to talk". That's not to say we aren't still communicating.

We communicate plenty. We just do it more through the pedals now and don't have to talk about it as much as we did when we started out.

I can tell exactly when she's running out of gas going uphill, or trying to catch up with the the pack. If she needs a rest she can take it. I can choose to up my efforts or back off.

We live in the "flatlands" of FL but there are a couple of nice rollers on some of our routes in and around Clermont/ Mt. Dora that we are working much better as a team lately with only "pedal talk". We push the bottom of the first climb, pace the middle, push over the top, gain speed for some portion of the downhill, rest the trough, push, pace, push, repeat. We're still beginners but I think we've learned a lot in a year.

The most common talking that I have to do about speed these days is that she wants to warm up faster than I do and I have to tell her to ease off once in a while in the first couple of miles. We seldom have that talk after 40 miles but that's okay too.

zonatandem

As we all are finding out, experience is the best teacher.

DHallaway

We have a pair of Polar 720i heart rate monitors which we put on her handlebar. She calls out heart rate information and tells me if I need to reduce my effort (A problem for us on group rides. She'll soft pedal to keep a friend close to talk and I tend to increase my power which she counters with even less power.)

The Polar 720's are coded and we have had very rare problems with cross-talk. One great feature which the 720s is being able to download and overlay the graphs to see how well we are working together (or not). I also found on our tandem we are able to use a sensor on the rear wheel and record the speed on both monitors.

tandemCruzer

We have plenty of hills in Santa Cruz! I find that I can feel my stoker's efforts through the pedals, and often I do have to tell him to back off -- I tell him to rest, to save it for a spot coming up, etc. On longer hills, too, I call out how much of the hill is left so he can better pace himself. Even after a lot of time logged together we still talk. Just works better for us. If I have to, I can also resist his peddaling, as well -- that really lets him know that I want him to let up.

ElRey

Doesn't sound to me like she's necessarily pedalling "harder" than you. Sounds like maybe you guys need some hill practice. Try hitting some of your "average" hills, whatever they may be, and keeping the cadence a bit high noe time and a bit lower another. Talk about the "feel" of it all while doing so. All teh computers in the world won't give you that kind of feedback. I use moderate hills for just thi purpose, as my stoker is a marathon runner with excellent aerobic capacity but not really strong and I'm a diesel. ONe other thought: ask her to jump off the saddle when this happens.

PMK

Doing some searches and digging up old stuff.

While our climbing is ok, we have a need for anticipating the need for a downshift prior to sending my stokers heart rate skyward.

Currently she will pedal for dead, even if I'm constantly asking how she's doing or if she needs an easier gear.

We've done rides with and without monitors for the stoker. With monitors is ok, provided she watches her numbers climb / hears the alarm, and then let's me know to shift. Without, is similar but with a smaller window of warning for the shift.

Last week I purchased a Garmin Forerunner 305. It was rated not only as a GPS, but also a digital HRM with almost a 10 foot range. The installation had the monitor mounted on my bars left of center. Try as we might, when it worked, it was great, but most times it would lose the signal. After trying every troubleshooting item listed on Garmins site and speaking with tech support, we swapped it for another unit. The replacement strap and receiver we tested in the parking lot. Same problem, inconsistant indications. Never could figuire out why. Kept telling her it was the monitor strap not making good contact, even with had pressure and gel it was still inop. The store knew our concerns right off and we returned the Garmin.

Picked up a Sigma Onyx, very nice but not enough range. Regardless this at least allowed us to use two HRM's.

So the big question...Has anyone found a HRM that is capable to have the receiver placed on the Captains bars, and is able to be worn by and indicate the stokers HR?

Also found and read the posts about the carbon frame issues and TG's tilted monitor. Again more weird stuff.

PK

WebsterBikeMan

I wonder whether your body is at least partially opaque to the signal.

Carbonfiberboy 

We both have coded HRMs and we'll occasionally tell each other the numbers. We both have bike computers, also. On our team, if one of us pedals harder, the other person's HR goes up. We can't figure why that is, but it happens. Neither of us can get away with a thing. It's just communication through the timing chain somehow. We almost never talk about it. "Feel the pedals" is all I can say.

mkane77g

We are both over 50, and do hills every ride, N. CA hills. We use a higher gear to control our heart rate, lower cadence, on long climbs, 2-5 miles or more. We also stand 50% of the time, as this also lowers cadence, heart rate, unless were racing another bike, which is whenever a bike is in front of us.

Alex & Deya

Scott,

My camptain wrote this cool article about the way we pace our selves. I took this part from the article, if you want to read all of if, see Tandems & Power

Training with Heart Rate

Training with out heart rate wasn’t ideal as I we could be doing a recovery ride but my stoker wasn’t recovering at all or vice versa. Our answer to this issue was to use the knowledge we had of training with heart rates on our single bikes, we knew that our threshold was almost identical, the only difference was that I would be going faster with the same heart rate numbers, the first step was to find out at any given speed and riding in different situations what were our hear rates, by doing so we found that our stoker being a female and while riding on my wheel on a climb or side by side on normal situations was always about ten counts higher in order to stay with me. Now that we had this data we started to apply it to our training on the tandem. While riding I started asking my stoker her heart rate and if it was higher than mine she would ease on the pedals and I would take the extra work needed to maintain the speed, by doing so she eventually would be riding at about the same counts or just bellow mine. This allowed us to gauge and understand our heat rates versus the effort or perceived exertion, and after some time we could get in sync quite easy. This made the tandem quite more efficient and faster as were not dying like before we started using this method.

Litespeed51

We are also pretty new to tandeming and are still learning climb togather. At various points on the climb I'll ask "how are you doing?" Along with her response, I am also listen to how she reponds. If her voice is calm, then I know she's not working too hard. If she is reponds quickly and sounds out of breath, I'll usually suggest that she back off a little. I alway ask this before up shifting near the crest.