WheresWaldo

In a situation where shifting is simply not as precise or fast as it could be, wouldn't Di2 really shine? The long cables required by a tandem for instance, would benefit from the preciseness of electric shifts. Also since there are a rash of waterproof electrical connectors think about the possibility of using this on a coupled travel tandem. Unsnap the connection the uncouple the bike halves. No fuss, no trim adjustments, no more sluggish shifting.

Just a thought.

merlinextraligh

IMHO, the two most promising applications are 1) tandems, for the reasons you mention, and 2)TT bikes, with the advantage of multiple shift buttons (on the aerobars,as well as the base bars.)

One issue is whether there's going to be a triple setup.

dvs cycles

I doubt a triple will appear unless the double is VERY successful.

WheresWaldo

Who says all tandems must be a triple!

TandemGeek

Y'all tell us how it works out...

dvs cycles

If a double works for you great. Don't know the stats, I'll leave that for TG, but I bet it's a high percentage that chose triple over double. I know a couple that use only double rings but they are grinders not spinners and never do more than forty miles.
For the record I wasn't the first to use the T-word in this thread.

cornucopia72

+ 1

We know/seen more than 100 teams. All but one, triple.

merlinextraligh

I didn't say I'm going to get it. I just think it potentially offers more advantage on a tandem than a single.

I still don't like the idea of having to recharge my bike.

WheresWaldo

Shimano almost always trickles down features from their high end groups to the lower groups, eventually. Who is to say that they won't work on a triple. I would venture a guess that if this group is moderately successful we will see a triple before we see Shimano go 11 Speed.

Anyway, no one here mentioned that they would rush out and buy it, but you all are a bunch of retro grouches!
Innovation rules!

72andsunny

I'm pretty close to rushing out to buy it...of course, I have a 27 speed. Cannot imagine what that upgrade would cost.

TandemGeek

The alpine (aka, granny) ring on a tandem is analogous to a spare tire. If you don't need it, why bother carrying around the excess weight.

However, as it is with the spare tire, you'd better be pretty darn sure you don't need it before leaving it at home.

As for the ratio of those who ride tandems with or without a triple, I suspect it's similar to ratio of folks who ride out-of-phase to in-phase. Moreover, the discussion related to the pros and cons thereto is equally subjective.

TandemGeek

See below based on some UK publications... GBPs converted to USD at current exchange rates. Marketing and economics will likely create a different US pricing structure than what you see doing a straight conversion as I did. Also, this is MSRP and after all of the "gotta have it now" folks have paid top $$ to be the first on their block with the grouppo, the Etailers and Ebay folks will start cutting each others throats and knock those prices down by a good bit as well.

Like I said, "Y'all tell us how it works out... "

Note: Y'all = to whom it may concern.

joe@vwvortex

Sweet - so my shifters can now stop working when i'm in the middle of a 60 mile ride and realize I forgot to charge the battery ........ no thanks....

Now if it had a way of keeping itself charged.......

TandemGeek

Whenever I want to remind myself of what constitutes a cycling innovation I look to a number of resources to ground myself.

Some of them are publications from the late 1800's which, as I've noted in a previous post suggest much of what is sold as "new" is actually quite old. Craig Calfee was quite surprised when I shared a few paragraphs from a 1897 consumer guide regarding the Bamboo Cycle Company, to include detailed drawings of their tube joining techniques.

One of the other resources is an interesting string of Emails written by Jobst Brandt regarding the bicycle industry. Like most things written by Jobst, they reflect his perspective and he's not one to play around in the grey areas: things are either black or white. Moreover, you don't have to agree with everything he offers; I certainly don't. However, it is provacative and reminds me of why you always want to try and remain objective when discussing matters related to cycling particularly when evaluating products and technology.

Damn; all this talk about electronic shifters makes me want to pull down my low-tech, chromed steel fixed gear bike for my next solo outing... Wouldn't that make Sheldon smile

WheresWaldo

That old saying goes, "There is nothing new under the sun."

BTW, today's ride was on my steel single speed.

Onegun

I believe it will, and it will be as big an innovation as STI.

Hmmm. Define "chose". For those that ordered custom tandems, yes. But the vast majority of tandems out there are production bikes and simply spec'd out by the manufacturer with triples.

You know I will! The good, the bad and the ugly!

I understand, Merlin, but Maggi and I already use a comm system that has to be recharged, headlights and taillights that have to be recharged, etc. From what I'm reading some testers were getting 1000 miles of heavy shifting out of the battery, so recharging these could be on the order of an every other week deal even if you're riding 500 miles a week! But it is a trade-off.

Well, yes, but they can do that now because you forgot to consider derailleur cables as a routine replacement item! Or you can have two flats when you forgot to bring the patch kit as well as a spare tube, a broken chain when you forgot a masterlink .....

I generally agree with all that stuff. Brandt, (in particular), is lamenting the passing into the sunset of the equipment that allowed us to be renaissance men, (and/or the renaissance men themselves)! I, too, grew up cycling in that era, and liked being able to fix anything on the side of the road. And it's no secret I'm not a ShimaNO fan. But .... I don't still drive a `57 Chevy cause they're easier to work on, and this is one innovation I think will turn out to be worthwhile.

Below is an exchange on our local newspaper's cycling blog between an old cycling friend from the 70's, (who still has his original Paramount tandem), and myself when the same Di2 topic came up there:

*************
There was a time, back when the earth's crust was still warm and dinosaurs ruled the earth, when knowing when to shift your bike, and being able to do so cleanly and smoothly, was something to be proud of. No, we hadn't quite mastered fire yet, but we rode with fiction shifters as we chased down woolly mammoths driving Gremlins and Vegas.

Ah, good times.
Chip


Yes, Chip. In 1972 we knew how to shift, Campy was King, and Eddie Merckx won both the Tour and the Giro!

Times change, don't they? I, however, have never been good at that "change" thing! Windows? What do I need a graphical user interface for? I can spell and know how to use a command line! Indexed shifting? You mean like the push-me-pull-you double cable piece-of-crap Shimano Positron of the 70's? Electronic shifting? What? You mean you still don't know how to shift your bike even WITH indexed shifting??!!

I usually "ease" into the current technology, both heels digging furrows in the concrete while screaming bloody murder. It took buying another tandem to even get me onto indexed shifting and brifters.

As you know since you USED to ride tandems, we have to shift on the order of twice as much as a single bike. Maggi and I bought the T2000 and it had brifters. "Oh well", I thought, "let's see if after 35 years Shimano has finally figured out how to make indexed shifting that actually works!" Three weeks later I was at a bike shop buying all new single bikes with brifters for the whole family.

With them, I can and DO shift during out-of-the-saddle, full power double stands on the climbs. And still, as convenient and safe as brifters make shifting now, on the tandem you have twice the cable stretch and possible binding points, etc. It's still not as positive as electronic shifting could make it!

I can see where electronic shifting, (if it has indeed come of age), will be showing up on both of our tandems and maybe even our singles just as soon as we can remortgage our house to buy them! ;-)

Bill

reposted from the Spoke-n-Word cycling blog on the St. Petersburg Times website

WheresWaldo

Onegun, thank you for your post. I never suggested that anyone, or even myself should go rush out and buy Di2. What I did want to know is if anyone else shared my opinion that Di2 could be a boon to tandemers. I think it will. When it trickles down to the performance rider level then I might make the switch. Think about it, a front dérailleur that does not need to be trimmed as it happens automagically as you move the rear dérailleur. Rear shifts that are fast and precise every single time. Whats not to like. As usual the most active participants in this forum are like your friend Chip, happy to wallow in the past, 9 speed, bar end shifters, drag brakes, 40 spoke wheels. This is especially true of riders with years of riding history. Come on, the future is now, embrace it!

TandemGeek

Apparently not... that, or Shimano STI must really be pretty awful when it comes to shifting performance on tandems.

Aside from pro-level riding and time trials, I can't begin to fathom the value-added of push-button shifting at any price vs. the shifting performance and functionality that I've enjoyed with Campy Ergo shifting over the past decade.

Integrated shifting was a boon because of the ergonomics, not any improvement in shifting performance over downtube shifters. Like most bikies of the day, even before index shifting I could pretty much nail perfect shifts and run the cassette up or down with my down tube friction shifters. Index shifting wasn't really anything I cared about on my road bike.

I too was drug kicking and screaming to STI. I finally relented to "catch up" with technology by moving away from my early 80's vintage steel Raleighs with their 7 speed cassettes, friction shifters & quill pedals to a '92 Trek 2300 carbon & aluminum frame with 8 speed STI & Look pedals. The frame was awful, the Look pedals were brilliant, and STI was cool, but awkward. Yes, I could now keep my hands on the brake hoods and shift, but as someone with small hands the shifting movement was far less efficient than my downtube shifters, e.g., having to over-extend/rotate my index & middle fingers to downshift more than one cog and then having to multi-shift again with the middle finger to upshift.

In 1997 I discovered Ergo at the same time we discovered tandems. I didn't really want Ergo, but the Sach's Ergo was the only integrated shifting system that worked with a front triple without resorting to one of Glenn Erickson's Gizzmo's. It didn't take me a day to realize how brilliant the Ergo system was with it's 'one-lever / one-function' design philosophy. Moreover, my index finger finally got a break and my thumbs had something to do... along with my pinky fingers which could be used to push down on the upshift paddles from the tops.

Anyway, to make a long-story short, I have no complaints about the speed or precision of the shifting that I've enjoyed with the Ergo systems and -- given we've never used anything but Shimano cassettes with our Campy shifters and derailleurs how anal I tend to be -- that's not hyperbole. As for travel tandems and cable splitters, if the shifting was great before you take it apart, it will be great when you put it back together... assuming you put it all back together properly: no tweaking required. Conversely, if the shifting was poor when you took it apart, it will be poor when you put it back together.

For those who race or looking to improve their personal best in club time trials that have otherwise extracted all of the performance they can from their bodies... Di2 will probably be a good choice. For everyone else, it's just the next latest and greatest dohickey to help prop up sales in what is for the most part an image-driven consumer market.

If the shifting on anyone's tandem is unacceptable perhaps maintenance (new cables & housing or better cable routing), a different shifter design (have you ever tried Ergo, bar-ends, or downtube), or better technique may be called for... that or your expectations are too high. After all, your tandem's drivetrain is handing 1.5x to 2.0x as much torque as your single bike; therefore, even with better technique and maintenance the shifting will not be "the same" as what you experince on your single bike. Personally, I don't think electronics will change that and Di2 will encounter some issues when it's installed on the average consumer's tandem. This is no different than the same "problem" with brake performance on tandems which suffers for the same reason: tandems use brakes designed for and fitted to single bikes and it's unreasonable to expect the stopping performance on a tandem with 1.5x to 2.0x as much weight to be similar to what someone experiences on their single bike.

Bottom Line: They're tandems folks... not single bikes. Expecting single-bike shifting, brake, or handling performance from a tandem will always leave you disappointed, even when it's good.

In closing, I'm clearly not one who is immune to wanting the latest and greatest. However, I try not to lose sight of the fundamentals and will often times "play around" with something to see if it's for real for the sake of experimentation and to gain an appreciation for the value proposition. Di2 will clearly be the latest and greatest when it arrives and, as already noted, I look forward to hearing from those who have an interest in the system.

TandemGeek

Voicing an objective and dissenting viewpoint is not wallowing in the past. I realize that in this day and age many folks -- old and most certainly the younger ones -- struggle with dischord and disagreement and seem to take umbrage when it is encountered.

Again, until someone other than marketeers and their surrogates can get a hold of this stuff without paying for it or being beholden to others in the business and do an objective, long-term test we'll never know if "in theory" means much. So, as noted MUCH earlier, I eagerly await such a pioneer's honest and objective review.

TandemGeek

Is this a retro-cruiser or hardtail mountain bike?

Onegun

No real argument as far as the "average" perspective, Waldo, but do keep two things in mind!

A. If you were doing long distance, fully loaded touring, that equipment is *still* very functional for that use. We should no more poo-poo it's use, than others should look down their noses at Di2.
B. There ARE some old-timers on here riding state-of-the-art, unobtanium tandems with full Campy or Dura-Ace!

The Di2 grouppo, (again, *if* ShimaNO has it right), will have several more advantages than even those you mentioned, at least one of which will be specific to tandems. I'm referring, of course, to "stoker shifting". Shimano intends to provide a "second set" of shift buttons, presumably for aero bars. But they will also allow the stoker to have control of the shifting!

You can do that now, of course, but it's an either/or setup, and with Di2 it could be both! For example, if the stoker is having trouble with the cadence on a particular stretch, they could take over the shifting so the pilot could "learn" what they need/want, and then they could change back to pilot shifting all on the fly!

Another thing I like is the convergenge of all that "stuff" on the handlebars! According to VeloNews:

"The shifter wiring harness accepts an all-new FlightDeck computer (SC-7900). The new FlightDeck features heart rate, altitude, grade, cadence, estimated caloric consumption, gear position, and battery life and is directly downloadable data via a wireless connection."

What, no bidet??!! What I'll do with an altimeter in Florida I have no idea, but the rest of that stuff is neat, plus "wirelessly downloadable"! How cool is that?

There's a lot of other stuff I like as well, but the last biggie is the 68 gram battery weight! Holy crap, that's nothing on a tandem! You could carry enough spares to go across the US without plugging in before you even came up to the weight of a full water bottle!

Yessir, I like it. Like it lots! But now let's see if it actually works, holds up, etc! After all, it is STILL ShimaNO!

WheresWaldo

Tarck bike as the youngsters say. Basically a track bike set up as a single speed. I usually ride it when I happen to ride with slower riders, enables me to get a workout without having to do front to back to front of group "intervals."

My hardtail MTB is carbon.

joe@vwvortex

Except that I have two spare tubes, patch kit, spare brake and derailleur cables and chain links in my seat bag.

I've had way too many rechargable things die on me - for one reason or another - say extreme cold weather - i'm not ready to have my only means of shifting rely on it quite yet. I'll wait before jumping on this ship.

merlinextraligh

And you call this an advantage? First they wanted drag brakes, then they wanted their own computer display, now they want shifter control?

WheresWaldo

That was funny