Santana Tandem "Sovereign" - worth it?
 

A friend of mine is selling a Santana Tandem and I wanted to check with you experts if you thought it was a good deal. The bike seems to be is superb condition. He said that only a few things are not OEM (the back handlebars and front crank come to mind). He said it was made of Ishiwata tubing but I can't verify it (confirmed as seat post is 26.6). I am not a tandem rider but I ride my sigle seat bike about 3500 miles a year. My wife doesn't ride with me because she can't keep up with me and feels bad that she is slower. So, I thought it would be a good comprimise to try a tandem. My buddy is lending it to me for a few trial days.

So, here are some photos of the bike. The serial number is sort of hard to read but I THINK it says "Db 178".

Anyone have any idea what year it is? Is there a spec sheet out there? He said he is looking to get $1300. He is very knowledgeable about bikes. I know these are expensive new but I don't know about the resale. Also, would it be better to put that amount of money into a new one. Obviously a $1300 new one isn't going to be as good as a $5000 new one but is a $1300 new one equivalent to a $5000 20 year old +/- one?

Regards,

Guy

http://gallery.me.com/danspeirs/100191/DSC_1694/web.jpg

http://gallery.me.com/danspeirs/100191/DSC_1695/web.jpg

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Go to Santana's website and check out prices for a new one of that model. Also, Santana has a network of sellers of used bikes. See if you can find a comparable one of that vintage. Check and compare prices. Also, do know that the convenience of having the bike in your hands and knowing all about it is very valuable compared to having someone ship you an unknown bike.

I'd put $1300 in a used Santana over just about any other option. I've had a Santana Arriva for over 20 years, and it's still a great bike. On a used bike, you should expect to give a thorough tuneup including cables, chains, and repacked bearings.

We bought ours for reasons similar to yours, and have enjoyed it immensely.

I do agree with the previous responder to check out comparable bikes - I suspect you'll find the price is reasonable.

With a 6spd cluster and what appear to be 27x1 1/4 tires and non pinned and
ramped FW/CW suggests it is indeed a VERY early Santana. Such equipment
was being phased out in the early '80s. Up grading would be a moderate to
significant expense. Main problem there would be are the brakes adjustable
to 700C rims. If so then modernization would involve a new R stoker crank
and CW set with 9spd being the sweet spot, new rear wheel (recent ebay
auction by Bens_Bicycle had a set of Shimano tandems 40sp wheels for $210)
new chain, cassette and set of brifters would add about $400 (plus wheels).
So an upgrade would run in the range of $6-700. If you like barcons then
you could get by with $100-150 less. The bike, as is, would be suitable for
shorter rides in relatively flat terrain which Central coast Ca does not sound
like. If your intended use is slow Sunday rides in the park it would do but
for anything more you will want some upgrading I would think. You probably
should look further. A friend just bought an '01 Trek T2000 for $2100
delivered mint. Bike weighs about 35#. Sovereign now is a fine bike, but
the one pictured is not comparable.

In addition a complete strip down and clean/lube and change out of the cables
and housing is a good idea for a bike that old. Inquire as to age of tires.
Bike tire rubber ages rapidly. Not too much choice of tires in 27". I had a
PW BB seize up after being stored from '77 to '99, popping the seals off the
bearings and a wash out of the grease turned to paraffin and relube and
replacing the seals solved the problem. I still have a bunch of PW hubs like
the ones on your bike.

Final thought: rear triangle width? Current standard is 145mm. Yours may
be less. If steel, then triangle could be spread, might be prudent to pop the
rear wheel out and measure the width. Larger spreads (10mm or more) run
the risk of popping welds/brazes at the cross pieces near the BB. If aluminum
forget it, bike would have to use standard road hubs, not tandem grade rear
hubs. What does the team weigh?

Are those spare spokes on the chainstay?

Thanks everyone for your response. The bike has recently had a total rebuild by a reputable LBS. Yes, the rear triangle does have extra spokes. Haven't seen that for a while.

I am not sure I would do a total update until we knew we wanted to stick with tandem riding. I agree though, that updating this could get expensive and may be too much. Also, I am not sure how those drum brakes work versus new disk or just regular brakes. Do they have a shelf life?

Thanks much for all the pointers.

-GG-

Borrow it long enough to find out if you and your wife like to ride tandem. Then cough up the cash for a new one with newer, better components. That thing is OLD and heavy.

+1, if that's an option.

I wouldn't offer much more than $800 for that vintage / condition Santana unless you and your spouse rode it and fell in love with it, in which case the cost of love might be an additional $150. You'd lose that $150 if and when you sell it if you decide tandeming is something you like enough to spring for a tandem from this Century or find it collecting dust next year round this time.

I can borrow it a few days. Can I buy a newer one with better components for $1300? That is the MAX I would like to spend right now. I think I could negotiate this down but it sure sounds like it just isn't worth it. I guess 1980s steel tandem bikes just don't hold their value like 1980s single steel bikes. I was kind of thinking this thing was sweet given the condition and sort of desirable. I'll take it out for a spin and keep my mind open. Alsthough, I haven't ridden a tandem in 25 years so it will feel strange no matter how good/bad it is.

-GG-

That is pretty old stuff for $1300. I a not a Santana expert but I'm guessing early to mid 80's. So that price is a bit to much for me. If it fits and you like it I'm thinking in the $500 to $800 range. You can get some pretty nice 90's stuff for that $1300 +/-. I also agree to just ride it for a while then decide what you want to do. Have fun.

Bill J.

it is 48 pounds! Pretty light huh? :-)

If I were you, I'd call Bill McCready, The Santana owner. You can google up the Santana phone number. During this holiday season Bill might well answer the phone himself. He can probably tell you all about the bike. The one you're looking at is definitely an old timer. When he first started Santana I recall he bought French frames and then built them up as well as French complete tandems and replaced cheap components with better ones, like the nice hubs on the bike you're looking at. I agree that the asking price is pretty high. Those old bikes aren't collectables yet.

My Santana is s/n DB176. It is grey also with an XL frame. We got it in the spring of '84.

Used tandems with that large of a frame are hard to come by.

The biggest problem is that the free wheel had extra wide spacing between the cogs for a heavy duty - extra wide chain. Not available anymore. When you replace any drive train component you will have to switch to a narrower freewheel, chain, front derailleur and crank set. If you don't change the cranks the narrow chain will skate and slip because the chain rings are too far apart. The old Swiss Bottom Bracket has a machined shoulder that won't allow a new crank to fit so they will have to be replaced also. The wide front derailleur will hit the new crank before it pushes the chain onto the large chain ring, so it will have to be replaced also. Note that the cable for the front derailleur connects to the frame. The shifting is done by the housing. You will need a clamp on cable stop for a newer derailleur. The new one will shift backwards.

A new seven speed freewheel will fit in place of the old six speed. The last freewheel I got was used because I couldn't find the wide range I wanted.

You can still get 27x1 1/4 tires rated at 125 psi and with a Kevlar belt.

Also check the spoke tension.

My rear wheel is the Santana standard 160 mm.

Thanks to everyone. It sounds to me as though I should call Santana. The bike is in good condition but I am a bit hesitant about the brakes not being stronger and the replacement parts. I am not sure when I will need them as the bike rides very well. Thanks for the input and please provide any more.

-GG-

A test ride would be in order. An overhaul would also be needed.
$600 to $700 would be the max in our estimation.
If you like it, then start replacing what is not to your liking.

Early '80s brakes are POS compared with brakes in the last 10yrs but a pad changeout
would help. Local tandem shop owner feels the rear triangle will be 140mm and the
frame steel. That would suggest stretching the frame for a 145mm current standard
hub should be feasible in theory. Satisfactory 27" tires are readily available. It is
questionable whether this bike is any better than say a KHS, which is more or less
the bottom end of the 'quality' tandem spectrum.

Two points, & feel free to enlighten me if i am off base:

I find it hard to believe that the chain is not available. You may not find one at your local BS but it can be found on the net. Replacing the entire drive train is not necessary.

Absolutely nothing wrong with the brakes on that bike. They can perform every bit as good as todays v-brakes.

The only problem with this bike is that the shifting will not be crisp & clean. It will all come down to expectations, If you are used to 20 year old bikes it is not a big deal. If you are used to index shifting it may be a shock.
$750 max.

Bill designed this model with a extra wide, heavy duty chain because tandems put so much more stress on the drive train. Or maybe it was just a marketing point to make the Santana tandems different. In any case custom designed parts that need to be replaced regularly isn't a good thing. Santana no longer supports this heavy duty, extra wide chain design.

It is the freewheel with wide spacing between the cogs that is no longer available. I couldn't find replacement Suntour cogs anywhere. The only choice was to replace the freewheel. When you replace the freewheel you will need a more modern narrow chain. After a few miles of having the new chain skate on chain rings with every shift I decided that the cranks had to be replaced. The way the Stronglight cranks were constructed, changing the spacers to bring them closer together wouldn't work. That led to new bottom brackets and a new front derailleur.

Doe's it require a chain wider than a 1/8" ?

I would bet that the freewheel could be re-cogged from a standard suntour freewheel from the same era. Again, it would not be an off the shelf item but i would be very surprised to find it not easy to do.

Just eyeballing the pix, the chain looks like standard 5spd chain. The FW cogs look
to have little wear and not need to be changed as is. Any changing would best be
done at the hub level to a free hub allowing modern cassettes to be used. FW looks
to be about 32T, an adequate size in most's opinion judging from contemporary tandem
equipment, the main quibble being the huge jumps between cogs. Our ex-tandem is
a L/M Burley with '04 equipment and would sell for $1300 easy.

Bill's input (FWIW)
 

The original poster took your advice and phoned me here at Santana.

The bike in question is a 1983 Sovereign. A watershed year, the new-for-1983 Sovereign marked the debut of the modern direct-lateral frame. All previous Santana tandems (with a Marathon-style frame) were retroactively re-named "Classic"---a marketing move later used by both Coca Cola and Apple Computer.

This was also the last year for Ishiwata tubing with 10/7/10 butting. For 1984 the Sovereign was upgraded to Columbus tubing with lighter 9/6/9 butting. Today's steel tandems use either Columbus 8/5/8 Chrom-Moly or 6/3/6 Columbus Niobium. The other reason a very large 1982 Sovereign is heavy is the classic fillet brazing. A beautiful hallmark of workmanship, fillet brazed frames were very slightly more durable at a weight penalty of 12-14 ounces, and a time penalty of $400-$600.

To set the record straight, starting in 1974 my retail bike shop delivered nearly 200 French-built tandems after refitting them with better components. As was the case with over 100 frames built in England and the U.S., all of these hundreds of tandems from nearly 3 dozen builders that I sold at Bud's Bike Shop were delivered with their original brand name. Not one was ever re-labeled or sold as a Santana. Santana was founded as a separate company with a separate location in 1976. All 14 prototypes plus our very first good-enough-to-be-labeled "Santana" were built here in California. Although my wife and I sold the bike shop in 2006, we still own the tandem factory. In addition to steel, our craftsmen here weld frames of aluminum (including Easton Scandium), titanium and IsoGrid carbon. (That's right, we actually WELD carbon tandem frames). New for this year will be Exogrid frames where tubes made from Easton Scandium, Columbus Niobium and seamless titanium will be laser cut and carbon infused.

In case anyone is wondering, my wife and I are both 57. Already a tandem owner (since age 15) I met Jan at a 1969 bike ride where I brought my tandem but didn't have a partner. Besides working together here at Santana, we design and guide 6 tandem tours and rallies each year. This coming year's destinations include Arizona (sold out), New Zealand (two spaces left), Chesapeake Bay, Great Lakes, Prague-to-Budapest, and Bodensee (a huge lake at the foot of the alps). An all-new event for 2010 is Paris-to-Amsterdam --- our tour starts where the Tour de France ends—with a 3-lap tandem race on the famous Champs-Élysées.

To learn more about our tandems or our tandem-only tours, you can visit us at www.santanatandem.com.

Bill McCready; Founder and President
Santana Cycles, Inc.

Welcome
 

Welcome to the forum Bill. Good to hear right from the source.

I called Santana today and talked to Steve. Even spent a little money to help drive this economy of ours.

Happy New Year to you and Jan.

Rick

Santana is the kind of company that you want to do business with. A few years ago I had a stuck seatpost on my Visa and took it to a local shop. The shop hit the top tube with a mallet while trying to unstick the post and put a quarter size dent in it. I called Santana and they assured me that the bike was fine and even offered to look at it for free if I was nervous. Great customer service and the bike is still in use by a close friend of mine.

If it were me, I'd buy it and ride the heck out of it as it sits - no upgrades just simple mainatenance. Be careful though, it can be very addicting.

After you ride the bike, and decide it fits, and the price is down into triple digits instead of 4 ...

1. Change the brake controls. Looks like the right hand lever does all the rim brakes and the left does a drag / drum brake (judging from the number of cable housings). Go for a different lever for each rim brake and let the stoker control the drag brake.
2. KoolStop pads for the cantilever brakes will help a lot.
3. Look around for replacement 27" tires. I think that the Panaracer Paselas are available in 1", 1-1/8" and 1-1/4". If you are thinking of changing to 700c rims, test fit a front wheel and make sure that the brakes can be adjusted to fit. Due to the cost of custom wheels, this might be something to hold off for the future.
4. You can probably get a 7-speed freewheel to work in the dropout space available; this would likely require a new, narrower chain. Might have to add a spacer on the freewheel side, take one out or switch for a thinner one on the left side, and do a bit of wheel redishing.
5. You could probably get a compatible right-side stoke crank to allow for closer-together chain rings to avoid dropping that new narrow chain between the old, farther-apart chain rings. This will create the opportunity (need) to change chain rings, maybe.
6. Look into a half-step plus granny setup for the gearing. A 52-48-36 or 32 front, and 12-32 7 speed rear (IF the increments between the rear cogs work out right -- you'll want to study the theory of the percentage changes for the steps/half-steps) may actually give you more usable, distinct gears than one of the newer more corn-cob like 9 speed cassettes. http://www.tandemmag.com/tech/gearinch/ may help you try out the combinations.

The good thing here is that once parts / components are cleaned and repacked, most everything can be done incrementally -- I'd start with the brake pads and tires, however!

When you're negotiating with your friend, hopefully he will understand that a budget is a budget, and yours needs to include the cost of the first 3 or 6 months of upgrades and changes.

Having taken time to look at all the various suggestions, I agree with almost all of them. An older used Santana tandem can be a great buy unless your desire for updated components causes you to spend hundreds of dollars on unnecessary upgrades.

Until you spend money on upgrades, you can ride a used Santana for 1-3 years AND expect to get back 90-110% of your acquisition cost. If you are uncertain about how much you'll use a tandem, spending up to $2500 for a used Santana is a much better option than spending the same number of dollars on any brand of new tandem (which typically loses 40% of its value after your first ride---OUCH).

The worst choice, however, is buying any used tandem with the idea of "fixing it up." When a used-and-upgraded tandem is sold, the seller will learn that expensive upgrades return less than 20 cents per dollar invested---double ouch!

To date, every Santana tandem remains completely serviceable. Additionally, we have three people on staff who know the history of our bikes. For the price of a free phone call (800)/ 334-6136) any of these experts can recommend inexpensive parts and repairs that will allow long tours and fast centuries. This continuing free factory support helps to explain the incredible resale value of a used Santana.

A couple of minor corrections:

Because sew-up tire compatibility was desired long before same-diameter clinchers became common, even the oldest Santana accepts 700c wheels without frame modification.

Similarly, every Santana frame ever built can easily be fitted with today's newest 10-speed gearing. Prior to our 1993 Santana's standard rear spacing for all steel frames was 140---which can easily and safely be stretched to 145mm. Since 1993, when we first introduced aluminum and titanium frames, every stock Santana frame was built with 160mm (better than the later and narrower compromise design of 145mm since 160mm provides room for stronger symmetric "dishless" wheels and 10-inch discs). Santana has always been happy to build other spacings upon request (i.e. 120mm for track tandems and 135mm for tandems with Rohloff hubs).

Since Santana has never used a non-standard drive chain, I imagine rfutscher's confusion stems from the the fact that in the late '70s and early '80s (when Suntour was promoting their gimmicky "ultra 6" and "ultra 7" freewheels with reduced cog spacing) Santana used a tandem-specific Suntour freewheel with wider internal pawls and standard cog spacing.

Until you absolutely need a new rear rim or hub, the best answer for any pre-1990 Santana will be a 7-speed freewheel and 27-inch tires (good versions of both are widely available). When a new wheel becomes unavoidable, the best upgrade path is a current 10-speed cassette wheel with 700c tires.

Bill McCready
tandem fanatic since 1966
tandem sales since 1974
tandem design since 1976