[sigh]: ANOTHER newbie?
 

hey, folks!
finally got my new membership confirmation email, so now i can start ASKING questions rather than just looking for the right threads.

in brief:
i have been racing bikes--road, mountain, cyclocross, bmx, and 20 years ago tandems--since 1983, and now want to get back into tandem racing. i had a cannondale that we raced in the late 80s and early 90s, and had such great times and success.

well, a new partner who rides a lot has me excited about getting serious about it again, but i have many questions, and i figure there are likely more opinions here than elsewhere, so feel free to chime in. as an aside, i host a weekly cycling radio show, and this search, acquisition and building process is likely to be part of a multi-episode series, so if you'd like to be included as a contributor, let me know, and we can arrange telephone interviews.

1--frame material. i'm thinking titanium, aluminum, or carbon. we both ride 50 cm singles, and can have, therefore, a small and lightweight frame, which because of its small size will be quite stiff, for better or worse. what do YOU think?
2--frame builder or manufacturer. because a 50/50 is NOT stock, we will need a custom frame. who do YOU recommend? who do you think we should AVOID? tell me of you experiences.
3--brakes. disc or caliper? i haven't checked yet whether discs are legal in usacycling events, so it might be a moot question, but what are your experiences? which BRAND of brakes are best and lightest?
4--wheels. stable and reliable versus lightweight and aero advantage: well, what's out there, and what have YOU folks experienced?
5--stoker handlebars. what's best, regular drops or bull-horn style, or something else?

that should be enough for starters. if you have or are a racing team, let me know. i want to come into this armed with as much opinion as possible.

other data: my racing age is 56, and i'm a cat 1. my stoker is not yet licensed, but has been riding for years, and has competed in many triathlons and running races. she is preparing for the cyclocross season. she is 51. she weighs about, 110 or so, while i weigh about 150. i am 5'7, she is 5'6.

again, thanks so much for ANY suggestions, opinions, or tales of woe or joy from your tandem experiences.

--kim

I'd recommend starting here and read the entire year. He (Tandemgeek) offers a lot of insight and enough minutia:D to satisfy most weight and engineering-minded weenies. I've thoroughly enjoyed reading his journal and his responses on the forum.

Calfee Journal

Not a racer, but I'll opine on 1 and 2 anyway:

1. Carbon fiber.
2. Calfee

http://www.calfeedesign.com/customframes.htm


:D




.

Direct questions demand direct answers:

1--frame material: Carbon or Aluminum

2--frame builder or manufacturer. Calfee or Co-Motion

3--brakes. Dual Calipers, with ability to fit a rear disc if you decide to go on a trip where you may find yourselves facing some challenging descents and/or riding a lot in wet conditions.

4--wheels. Lightweight, conventionally spoked wheel built around Fusion or Deep-V for training, technically challenging road courses and all other forms of non-racing w/some type of true aero wheels for TTs. Rolf's do a good job, but they're not the end-all that can do both as well as two different sets of more application-specific wheels.

5--stoker handlebars. Depends on what your stoker finds comfortable. Bull-horns are less expensive and weigh much less, but also limit the number of different hand positions that can be used. Drop bars with stoker rests (dummer levers) are heavier and have some added cost for the stoker rests, but afford a stoker all of the hand positions they enjoy on their single road bike(s).

+1 on Calfee or Co-Motion.

Also Rue sports, Yin an Yang tandem would be an option. http://www.ruesports.com/frames/tandem.html

The Rue is built on 130mm spacing, which should be fine for your team weight, and gives you a lot of wheel options, such as Zipp 404 clydesdales.

As for Rim or disc brakes, I think the preference for racing tandems tends to skew toward Calipers.

At the Co-Motion Classic Tandem Race this year, my guestimate would be 10-20% of the bikes had disc brakes.

High quality calipers will stop the bike just fine. And Heat build up should not be an issue given your team weight, and since the intended use is racing, you won't typically be riding the brakes.

We did Everest Challenge on the Tandem last year with dura ace calipers and no problems.

However if you're specing a custom tandem, it wouldn't hurt to have a disc mount built into the rear drop out just inc ase you'd like to change to a disc for some occassion down the road.

It depends on how much money you want to spend.
There are options from $1K to $10K.
I would spend as much as possible unless you are not sure tandeming will be a long term commitment.

is anyone familiar with "paketa" bicycles? they make a very lightweight tandem that seems to get rave review for its weight, strength and comfort.

thanks for the comments thus far.

Nick Wigston of Zinn Cycles said that their sales of the V2 increased between 50% - 100% this year:

http://paketabike.com/files/v2_snowbg_gates.jpg

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=576144



:D

I didn't think you needed a custom frame, so I emailed Michael Moore, Calfee's sales rep the stats you posted. His reply:


Custom costs more, you'll have a ton of expense with this in any case, so it is good to avoid a needless one from the get go.

My newly made bare Calfee Dragonfly frame, Size L/M, weighed 2930 grams nude, and 3280 grams painted (Cabernet Red). If in your research you can find what a similar aluminum Co-Motion Macchiato, magnesium Paketa V2, and ti-carbon Santana Beyond frame weighs, that would be interesting (Santana claims the "Beyond frame is 1.5 pounds lighter than an otherwise identical pure carbon frame." This must mean a carbon frame with a lateral tube, none of which are now made).

... but no one's ever quantified "50% to 100% of what"?

If they sold 10 in '08 and 20 in '09, that would be different than 5 going to 10, or 20 going to 40. 40 would be a lot of Paketa tandems... Heck, it would be a healthy number of Calfee tandems in a year (or, at least it would have been a while back). I think our '08 Calfee was somewhere around No. 220... remembering that Calfee built it's first tandem back in 1998 or there abouts. In fact, it would be interesting to hear what serial number is on Ritterview's new Calfee or uspspro's Calfee just to get a feel for the production tempo at Calfee.

I'm not taking anything away from the Paketa tandems; most of the folks who have 'em love 'em... which is true of most high-end tandems: you can't please all of the people all of the time, eh? But, statements like that from marketing types are always interesting...

He had indicated from "20 on up to 30 or 40." (from whence the 50%-100% figure was derived) which is a surprisingly vague answer for a person charged with marketing it given that the V2 lists for over $10k apiece. One would think that he would know exactly.


.

Our opinion:
Calfee or Rue for carbon fiber. Have ridden Calfees and seen/hefted Ying Yang Rue.
Co-Motion for alu or steel. Have ridden all sorts of Co-Mos. Seen/hefted the Macchiatto.
Magnesium: Paketa; have seen/hefted, but not ridden.
Ti: have ridden 2 full Ti tandems: Serotta and Santana. Nice but not overly impressed
As for Santana . . . they are good tandems but not racing stuff; they've never won either the Burley or Co-Motion Classic tandem race in Oregon; it was 'rumored' that Mr. Bill offered $$ for a 'tana win.
Still waiting for that.
Brakes: calipers; your choice of brand$/pads.
Weels, durable + light: Topolino.
Stoker bars: her choice! Try drops; if they don't work out, cut 'em down/flip 'em over and you have cowhorns.
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

Fixed.;)

Frame material: If cost is no object, Carbon from a reputable builder. If cost is a consideration, Aluminum.
Frame Builder: Several good ones already mentioned. You do not need a custom frame. We are almost exactly your heights and weights and could easily adapt a stock "small" Co-Motion to our accustomed fits.
Brakes: We have three tandems with caliper brakes and a triple with discs. For racing, use caliper brakes. They are lighter and simpler. On a custom frame you can specify a rear disc mount just in case your needs change.
Wheels: As a serious racer, you are probably used to having separate sets for training and racing. No reason why you shouldn't do the same with your tandem. If the cost seems prohibitive, spend less on your frame.
Stoker Bars: zonatandem's advice is sound. Start with the stoker's favorite drop 'bars and add dummy levers. They will feel most natural to your stoker.

custom? or standard size?
 

As mentioned the Calfee small/small might just fit you... We are very close to your size and love our Calfee Dragonfly and went with the standard size.

I do know about Paketas, ironically we have had the chance to get to know Dave Walker (the man behind the Paketa Tandem project). Had we met Dave BEFORE our Calfee purchase, we would very likely be riding a Paketa. They are very nice bikes! Very light too!

My stoker prefers drop bars (for more hand positions).

We opted for the rear disc brake because we ride mostly in the mountains here in Colorado. I agree that you would likely be fine without the disc, but I like the piece of mind that I will not overheat the rim (I have warped the disc and turned it some cool colors - but no big deal).

It is my belief that ALL of the high end manufacturers listed so far (Calfee, Paketa, Co-Motion, Rue Sports) are building high quality products. You will not get a unanimous answer for "the best".

If you are looking to build a lightweight tandem, be prepared to spend $$$. Build as nice of a bike as you can afford. We have a bit of $$ tied up in tandems - but we RIDE them!!! :thumb:

Keep asking questions here - you'll get a lot of different answers. There's a wealth of tandem knowledge on this forum.

Good luck on your journey to build the RIGHT tandem for YOU and YOUR stoker!

Not so fast there on the Rue Sports. The Rue subforum at Fairwheel has been locked, with the following explanation:

The Rue Blog hasn't been updated since May, and the Rue Twitter two days ago has this cryptic message:

So, scratch Rue as a source for carbon frames. As far I know, Calfee enjoys a monopoly on carbon tandems.

tandemgeek--
oddly enough, my stoker--recall, she is NOT a racer, just a triathlete and runner ;-)) --is TOTALLY jacked at the idea of a tandem track bike. the one time she visited a velodrome, she watched in awe as a tandem sped around the track. i CAN'T wait for THAT one!!
thanks for the advice; it's gonna take some time to sift through it all, and we're just entering cross season... i have friends who race their tandem mountain bike, too. they're at chequamegon this weekend, and have won the overall at some big mountain bike races, beating all the singles. so with their input, and the input i plan to continue to receive here, too, i think we'll be just fine.
and again, i DO intend to contact some of you folks to put together my series for the radio show.
thanks for everything so far, and in just one day! great!
--kim

Unfortunately, competitive tandem track racing these days is limited to paralympic type events and classifications where one of the riders must have a physical impairment OR demonstration events like the annual Tandemonium at Trexlertown, PA.

UCI / IOC / USCF have all dropped the tandem events after a series of fairly serious crashes, the OIC dropping it first after the '72 Olympics which pretty much took the wind out of the sails of track racing given the lack of an international marque event. The USCF and UCI seemed to drop it in the mid-90s.

Paketa is a much smaller company than my employer, but I actually found that surprisingly much precision. Companies often like to keep that sort of information closely held (especially small numbers), although in a small company which competes on the basis of their unique features it is less so.

No doubt. But in the context of his original post (i.e. exclaiming "a huge increase in sales") it is less than precise. Either it is a huge increase intended to generate more interest or it is not and intended to protect proprietary information.

Given the uniqueness of the market segment for high end racing tandems I personally would have guessed going more like somewhere from 5 to 10.


.

Not knowing a heck of a lot more about the marketeer involved and without dropping Dave a line at Paketa, I'd take it all with a grain of salt.

Nice frames, but like the Calfees -- and perhaps even moreso -- they have a distinct narrow slice of what is already a very narrow market in the very narrow niche tandem market. Now, to be fair, there has been a lot of growth in the high-end performance tandem market as the tail end of the boomers who race bikes have gotten to a point where tandems are now attractive enough to be cool.

Everyone above has given you excellent advice and insights. I have no doubt you will build a phenomenal machine. The best part is that both of you have the engines to make it fly. It will be fun to watch your journey.
My vote is for Calfee, but I am prejudiced...We have one too. Spectacular ride. I have been riding carbon since the first days of the Kestrel 4000 and have never looked back. I raced triathlons for 17 years. When I switched to carbon from steel, I dropped my times on 40k courses, that I had ridden for years, by 10-12 minutes. Carbon makes a huge difference in performance.

i've ridden all sorts of frames, singles, that is: steel, carbon/aluminum, full carbon, scandium, titanium. i'm so small, that any 50cm frame is going to be pretty stiff, and pretty light. i just worry about the durability of a carbon tandem. that's a whole lotta money down the drain in a crash. my current race bike is a ti lightspeed. i love it, and i don't worry about scratches or damage in crashes [although i've not gone down on it--yet].
racing on a carbon long bike could be a pretty risky thing. touring and fast riding is one thing, but mixing it up in tight corners and sprints, well, i believe paul sherwin refers to the argie-bargie aspect of it, and i would tend to agree.
have you raced your calfee? how up-tight about it are you?

Carbon bikes aren't that fragile! Sure they can brake but so can a Ti bike. Destroying a Ti bike in a race can be just as expensive as a carbon bike. Have you priced Ti tandems lately? Any performance tandem that they get will be expensive.
Funny, I've broken a Ti frame but never a carbon one and I've been on carbon, almost exclusively, for the last 4 years or so. In fact I t-boned a van (on my single bike then) at 40mph during a race in 06 and the only damage besides me was a broken Zipp wheel, a broken carbon crank arm and a broken shoe. I was able to get back on the bike and finish the race on that bike after I got out of the hospital. I did my first (ultra) race on my Calfee in June, have another race in three weeks and will be doing a bunch of TT's and probably some short road races next year. I used to race/ride a Santana tandem and I don't regret the switch one second.

Googling titanium + tandem reveals several makers of titanium tandems. For example, Seven, Santana and Habanero (the first I've heard of this brand).

A Large/Medium Ti Seven weighs 7.77 lbs, a Medium Habanero weighs 7.7 lbs

My Large/Medium Calfee Dragonfly weighed 6.45 lbs unpainted and 7.07 lbs painted. So, somewhere around a pound lighter than Ti. The Ti's listed have lateral tubes, unlike the Calfee, which likely accounts for much of the difference.

That Habanero is inexpensive, only $2395, compared with $7000 for a Dragonfly, and with Ti you can leave off the weight and expense of paint. A Tetra would be a less expensive carbon that likely would be heavier than these Ti's.

So, if you look on the basis of weight, carbon's most alluring feature, the Ti frames aren't that far off, and can be much less expensive. I haven't received my Calfee, yet, so I can't rhapsodize about the ride quality.


I'll look when I get mine. Homeyba has a new Dragonfly, what's yours?