Clearly, deep carbon rims reduce weight and improve aerodynamics. However I would question their durability compared to an aluminum rim. As you yourself stated there is a potential heating problem when used on a tandem with rim brakes. Adding a disk brake probably negates the weight savings of the rim. Just this last weekend a friend was doing a 250 mile brevet in the rain and he reported this:

Had to DNF at mile 193 on Saturday at 7:00pm. Got a front flat doing 35 mph from what appeared to be a spring. The spring went around a couple of rotations and then got spit out. Pressure went and I just about went down. I tried using the brake a bit and started to lose the front end since it was wet. Just decided to let it roll down on its own and did my best to keep the bike running straight. By the time I stopped the rim and debris had torn up the sidewalls. I walked about a ¼ mile and found some shelter and a little light. Replaced the front tube and limped along until I got to a 7-Eleven. Called the SAG and that was it for me.
When I took my wife to the airport on Sunday morning at 4:30 am we saw riders on the course heading up Scripps Poway Pkwy. Keep in mind the ride started at 4:00am on Saturday. They still had another 2-3 hours left. Saw another one walking his bike up one of the grades on Scripps. On my return trip from the airport an hour later I found a rider curled up in a fetal position on the corner of Scripps and General Atomics Way. I pulled over to discover he had 2 flats and 2 cracked carbon wheels. He hit a pothole coming down Scripps and broke both wheels. He had some really nice deep dish Cane Creek aero wheels.

Since I no longer race and can't justify spending a lot of money to save a few seconds or minutes I find aluminum rims to be quite sufficient.
But if that is what is important to you and you have the dollars then go for it.

Here's my take....

I would love to have some deep Edge rims on WI hubs with 28h (whatever is the most they do). I think that they would be strong enough to handle riding fast, dealing with rough roads, etc.. on our tandem. I think they would feel great and perform well.

BUT...

Here's why I wouldn't use them on our weekend rides. Braking.

Carbon rims just do not have the same capabilities as their aluminum counterparts when dealing with braking.

I know a guy who literally melted a rim going down Welch Creek in the East Bay Area, CA (4 miles of avg 10%).

I just went down Hicks in the South Bay this past weekend, and I would not want to be on carbon rims coming down that on the tandem.

Dude, I've got more tied up in current rolling stock and frames than most people spend on a German luxury car, so the $2,500 (not $3,120) I dropped on those three of the five different wheelsets I purchased for our Calfee (two of which I subsequently sold) is just a blip on the screen. Remember the comment about more money than sense? I have a lot of expertise in this particular area.

Regardless, if you had followed what I've written over the course of the past two years regarding wheels here at BF and in my Calfee Journal you would have known why I purchased these various wheelsets and why the high-end wheels don't see much use.

Why not use them more often? Because pot holes and other road hazards aren't impressed by nor do they care how much coin you dropped on your wheels: they're equal opportunity hazards. Therefore, when you factor in that none of the high-end wheelsets offer ANY benefit for day-to-day use when compared to the much less expensive and easy to repair conventional wheelset, there's just not a risk/reward model that says it's a prudent choice. Frankly, if you want to improve your fitness and performance on race day, use heavier wheels with lots of aero drag as your training wheelset.

So, yes... upping the ante with even more expensive, race-specific wheel sets for "every day use" is IMHO a pretty silly proposition UNLESS you aren't budget constrained, have a spare wheelset or two laying around and just feel like spoiling yourself.


If you've got the money to burn, knock yourself out... You'll look spectacular.

BTW, why do you even care what I think?? To be honest, I'm only protracting this discussion because I've found it's rather easy to push your buttons...:D

In all seriousness and setting aside the light hearted debate, let us know how it all works out and, really, just do what makes you happy.

Frankly, just going from your 48's to a very lightweight set of 36h conventional wheels with a 25mm tire would probably feel pretty dramatic, and almost on par with a Rolf as far as first impressions go:


so - any recommendations on hub and rim combos for a "very lightweight set of 36h conventional wheels"? Also, are the HuGi hubs rated well? No one on this thread has even mentioned them...

More... Any thoughts on these VeloCity 40 spoke wheels? http://www.bikemania.biz/VeloCity_Ta...andem_disc.htm - $340 seems a pretty good deal, but any better than what I already have?

It's probably apparent that I am in no way as deeply tuned in to all of this as the rest of you - I can hardly find time to ride, let alone keep up with components, etc. Which is why I'm really appreciative of all of the folks who have weighed-in on this thread.

Edge rims are reputed robust. The are popular, for example, in mountain bike racing. I am not too concerned about their ruggedness relative to aluminum.

A disc brake does add weight, but I would be getting a disc brake regardless because I'll be doing significant hills. For riders that do moderate hills, carbon rims would prompt the need for disc brakes, and your point is valid. Flat Floridian type cyclists might be able to get away with carbon rims and calipers.

I'm with you U'pro, braking rim heat is my greatest concern. Your penchant for taking your tandem up/down hills is legendary, and I don't think we'll be matching it right off. I think our typical route will be the smooth and relatively flat roads on the Foothill Expressway/Canada Road axis, and for which the Edge rims will be well suited and rim heat will not be an issue.

As we venture more into the hills I'm going to monitor the situation closely. I've got a pocket infrared thermoneter, that I've been using to measure rim temperature, and I'll be doing some testing to see how hot the front rim gets on descents, so as to get a sense of the temperature curve.
http://www.advantagehobby.com/images...YN2529-250.jpg
For routes involving steeper descents and thus prone to brake rim heat, I'll get an aluminum rim front wheel. The front wheel is cheaper, and is easy to change out. So, it will be no big deal to when in doubt go aluminum rim. This will be my climbing front wheel, so it will be shallow rim, and with 32 or 36 spokes, so as to be stiff/stable on descents.


What is 'race specific'? The hubs? No. The 28 DT-Comp spokes? No. Then it is the carbon rims. There is nothing fragile about Edge rims, so the problem is the cost if damaged. I'll take the risk, which I don't think excessively high. Edge has pretty generous customer service (one user melted a rim but got a warranty replacement). They also have a crash replacement policy, so I'd not be out in the cold. So, I consider this neither silly nor profligate, but better and cheaper than the combination of utility + Rolf/Topo.

Well geez, TG, I was just posting about the effect of rim depth on wheel strength and out of the blue you opine that wheels such as I was describing were evidence of an owner's personality disorder. I am happy that you can take satisfaction in 'pushing my buttons', but it would be more impressive if you could evoke a reaction with a subtle gibe.

I will update the tandem forum on how it turns out, unless I break or melt a rim on the inaugural Solvang Century ride. That I'll keep to myself.;)

This raises an interesting question for a fast mountainous ride (or race) would you be better off with aluminum rims, and calipers, or CF rims and discs.

Despite living in Florida, we've done some real descents on our tandem, including in Everest Challenge, and have found that caliper brakes are adequate for our purposes.

Haven't gone to the trouble of comparing weights, but my bet is that a pir of Rolfs with aluminum breaking surfaces, or Zipp clinchers (and cerainly Topolinos) paired with caliper brakes would be as light as CF rims, with disc brakes, and a disc rated fork (assuming we're talking dual disc)

Given the cost and complexitiy advantage the Al rim/ caliper brake system would have, I think there's a reasonabl debate here as to what would be the preferable setup for such a ride.

If you were proposing those very same wheels for use in the Co-Motion Classic or some other competitive event I would have left it alone, pretty much how I weighed in with MerlinXL when he acquired his ZIPPs at a very attractive price. Since it wasn't clear if that was your intention or if you were going to use these at public charity rides, club training rides or the like I figured I drop a hook with some bait to see if you'd bite and, as expected, you did... and hard.

Now, even then I gave you two fairly simple choices as an out for your decision, neither one of which is indicative of a clinical condition, such as lunacy, mental or personality disorders that you have seeminly been interjecting into the debate. Often times, these two things go hand-in-hand which explains why there is an exotic tandem and bicycle market in the first place. Again, I have extensive experience in this regard and am very familiar with the inner workings of how one can end up with a tandem that costs five figures. This is a truly mind-blowing amount of money for any bicycle to 99.99% of the rest of the world beyond the realm of the cycling and tandem enthusiast with the discretionary resources to even consider such an expense, particulary for recreational pursuits.

That you chose to jump to a clinical diagnosis is something I can't control nor something I agree with. Free will allows us to do all kinds of things that don't always make good sense when looked at using purely objective data.

great thread. keep the examples of wheels on your tandem comin'. i need ideas for new build!

wife, me, and bike will weigh about 320lbs total.

i seem to chew thru wheels on my road bike with somewhat regularity (usually busting spokes), so the thought of tandem wheels that will hold up for a good long haul has me concerned....:lol:

my current road wheel setup is velocity aerohead and phil wood hubs, and yes, i've busted a spoke or two on those too.

(i live in nyc, by the way, not exactly smooth road heaven....)

Ritterview, stop badgering the witness, (even though I think he's enjoying it.)

2frmMI, we know you! (3-Erickson formation in Gananoque: small, medium, large. We were Small.) Welcome!

270-lb. team, we use White Industry Hubs, Velocity Deep V rims, 36-hole in front, 40-hole (with disc brake) in back. Originally supplied with straight-gauge spokes, I rebuilt them with double-butted 2.0/1.8/2.0mm mostly just because I'm fussy. Very happy with them, good durability for unloaded sport touring both days of most weekends and two-four weeks each summer entering 4th season now.

Two things to note:

1) We got mysterious flats on the inner aspect of front and rear tubes in the first few months despite good old Velox cloth rim strips. Hypothesizing that the spoke holes had tiny burrs left over from drilling -- they seemed a tad rough -- I ran a round file around the rim wells followed by emery cloth, remounted the rim strips, and voila: no more flats.

2) One spoke nipple (brass) sheared off right at the head where it bears against the un-eyeletted socket in the rim. Not a big deal to repair since the spoke itself wasn't broken, but never heard of this happening before. A friend ("Large", as above) with the same wheels had the same thing happen to him. This was before I rebuilt them but the as-built tension didn't seem excessive (by feel.) Gouging of the brass nipple against a too-sharp non-eyeletted rim socket?

Have used Mavic MA-2s (36-hole -- I *miss* that rim!) successfully with modified single-bike hubs, too.

Yet another wheelset
 

Hey conspiratemus! That would be the lustworthy Ti! We just ordered some new wheels: Phils with Fusions, 40/36. No doubt over-reacting to the failed Rolfs, but by darn, we'll finish our tour in Spain this summer! Will PM.
John

We use our Rolfs as our primary wheelset, and have 40 holers as a back up. 2007 models with at least 15,000 miles on them. Ridden every weekend, been on 3 tours and they have been bullet proof. We live in Sonoma county and the potholes around here swallow bikes. 290lb. team wt. I was considering another pair of Rolfs as back up's we like em so much.

Yup, it's the "F" word - "fun".

That's the real reason why we do it, then we have to conjure up some objective reason to justify whatever it is that we decided to do.

Yes, we also were using Rolfs as the daily wheels, until they failed. Were roundly scolded here for being so gullible. We read "super light, but strong enough to be your every day wheels!" ...and believed it. NOT! Maybe your super light team weight at 290 is the difference. We are more "developed" at 330 on a good day. Another interesting thing to ponder though is: first signs of failure appeared after a VERY steep descent on cobble stones (Montalcino,Italy) using a disk brake. For the life of me, I can not trace forces sufficiently to argue that the disk brake was a factor. But pounding stones I understand. In my defense, the Rolfs are rated for disks. Maybe not rated for cobble stone.

We're not lightweight - and are a over 330lb team and have ridden our Rolfs exclusively for 5 years. We've even taken them off road several times when the pavement ran out on some rides we've done. We've had one spoke failure in the rear. Wheels fail. I've had spokes fail in all sorts of wheels for all sorts of reasons.

OT: Not so apocryphal:

Essentially the same quote is listed in The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations:


Of course, it isn't necessarily OT, as tandems, like ships, have a captain, and stokers might find some similarity in the traditions.

Hmmmm. I would have used the other "F" word - "FARKLES", i.e., Functional + Sparkles

Or, if you prefer: Fancy Accessory Really Kool Likely Expensive

Thanks for that. Signature duly corrected.

True, tandems have captains, but like flagships they also have rear-admirals. And while an admiral aboard a warship doesn't interfere with the captain's job to navigate the ship, no captain who wanted to keep his command would ever use the lash (even in a figurative, jocular sense) on an admiral who stepped out of line or offered "helpful suggestions and constructive feedback"!

does anyone know what the weight limit is on the velocity deep v rim?

website doesn't have it up there. i've emailed velocity...but thought i'd also check here, figuring someone already has the answer...

thanks.

They have no weight limits, per se...

From Velocity's FAQ's, which are linked off the 'About Us' page.

Yep, that's all I found as well (on the Australian site).

Separate question: Tandems East has a tandem 145 wheel spec'd with Shimano XT hubs, which I presume is an mtb hub. Shimano specs that hub as having "over locknut" spacing of 135mm & axle length of 146mm.

Now I'm really confused....

...and yes,m I will call them tomorrow to discuss in greater detail...

But if anyone has any comments in the interim, I'm all ears.

The Shimano XT/XTR hub 'guts' that have been used since 1995 were developed for use on tandems and carry the alternative designation HF08. It replaced their earlier and somewhat less robust HF07 tandem hub in response to a 1994 challenge to Shimano by Santana to develop a better rear hub specifically for tandems. Shimano produces the HF08 in 135mm, 140mm, 145mm and 160mm models. They are more commonly referred to as the Paralax (oversized) XT 'tandem' hub and I believe they are only offered in 40h and 48h drillings.

The regular, non-Paralax XT and XTR hubs use the same guts as the HF08, but don't have the taller and more robust flanges spec'd for the Paralax models which does provide folks with a way to build a 36h wheelset around an XT hub.

If we go with 135 spacing (which is the likely path on the frame), I might get a wheelset with XT or XTR (w/rear disc) hubs built on Velocity Deep V rims. Would that make for a nice strong but reasonably light wheel set, given what the bike is geared towards?