gracehowler

Ok, not to hijack the thread, but how do we define averages? I just read in the fifties plus forum of a bunch of old folks doing a century in 8:40. He said average of fifteen something. Now I generally don't count lunch, but it seems to me 100 miles in more than 6.6 hours is less than 15 mph. Do we divide time and distance, or just look at that average thing on the computer?
( which mine doesn't have)
R&J

rdtompki

100 miles at 15 mph is 6.67 hours and the century could easily be more than 100 miles. If the century had a good deal of steep climbing it's possible the climbing speed at some point could have dropped below the autopause speed. This would really mess up the cyclometer-calculated average.

RochMNTandem

All of this talk about "average speed" makes me anxious. We are new to tandem'ing, only able to get 100 miles in total before the Minnesota winter hit. Now have another 100 miles on with great anticipation for many more. Going out today and tomorrow weather permitting. I'm hugely competitive, former runner I'm all about times, speed and improvement. My stoker "wife" is new to the bike thing and not at all competitive so I have to really temper my energy to push the average MPH.... All that to say, at this point I am learning to enjoy the ride and time on the road without focusing on improving "my" time. Tandem is a "we" thing. I've wanted to ask the average milage questions but held off.... One of the first rules I learned when we purchased the bike is "keep the stoker happy" -- it's paying off with more miles!

Onegun

OK, I've gotta chime in. Here are three other points to consider:

1. "Average speed" is useless for comparison to anyone but yourself or MAYBE, TO SOME DEGREE, those on the exact same ride on the exact same day as you.

2. If you look at your current speed on a flat road in a still wind, and you're cruising comfortably somewhere around 20 -22 mph, then you'll be riding with the vast majority of everyone on the vast majority tandem rides/rallies. If it's 16 -18 mph, you'll still have plenty of people to ride with.

3. If you want to get faster, take the cyclometer off or, at the very least, COMPLETELY IGNORE the average speed except for once a month on a set course with no traffic controls, i.e., your local time trial course.

Average speed depends on SO many variables that it's ridiculous to try and use it to compare much of anything except your own progress on the same ride over a long period of time. Our average speed on our favorite 40 mile "from our door" ride is more a product of how many of the 60 traffic control devices we get to blow thru than it is of how fast we rode.

Everything affects average speed. Lights, stop signs, traffic, wind, terrain, etc. You can train like hell and go back to your favorite ride and end up with an average speed that's a mile an hour slower because the wind was different than the last time you rode it, or there was more traffic, or you caught more lights, etc., etc.! I can improve the average speed on my cyclometer by racing up to every light or stop sign and jamming on the brakes at the last moment, then jump off the light and ride normally afterward! So how useful is it really? It's only real use is as a personal marker over a season or so.

I don't think number two need any further explanation.

As for number three, chasing an average speed is detrimental to getting faster. It is interval work that makes for a fast team. A friend of mine and I penned the training mantra:

Mountains make you strong,
Distance makes you lean,
Intervals make you fast, but
The wind makes you MEAN!!

I repeat that to myself over and over as I'm fighting a headwind, but it's the intervals part I'm talking about here. And not even "formal" intervals where you go out to do 2 x 10's or 2 x 20's, but just the informal intervals we do on every ride .... attacking that climb, chasing that truck or bus, seeing how fast we can go on that downhill, etc.

Those extraordinary efforts are usually followed by a recovery period where you slow down dramatically. As a matter of fact, the recovery speed for "formal" interval days I once saw described as "embarrassingly slow". I relate to that. I HATE to go that slow, but if I want to do intervals correctly, that's the deal.

So what do those efforts do to your "average speed"? They put it in the basement. So if you're "chasing" your average speed you won't do them, and your progress will be much slower and more limited.

So leave average speed to a monthly time trial ride over the same uninterrupted course. That's the appropriate time and place to look at it. Trying to use it for anything else on a personal level is detrimental, and trying to use it to compare to others is completely non-functional.

P.S. Foamy, EXCELLENT ride report!

gracehowler

back to reality, thanks Bill
R&J

Butcher

Why is it that so many individuals state the obvious. I think most people here know what an average is. But no mater what, an average is just that. It takes the average ride, with the average wind, average climb, etc. I wish people would just look at their computers and read the number. Then mention why, because they were going up hill, down hill, windy, etc. Yeah, I know there are stop signs but I bet there is an average amount of stop signs we all run into. Just remember what average means.
I can say that my daughter and I have raised my average speed on the tandem about 2 mph [from 16 to 18mph] but I think it is because she is 100lbs lighter than my son and provides about the same amount of power [maybe a little more]. My average on my single bike is getting up to 20.

Oosbahnd&Weefay

The other point to note that is important during training is that on a hilly course, average speed is a great indicator of progress. As mentioned, its your slow speeds that affect average much more than your high ones, so raising the speed on hill climbs by just a few miles an hour makes a huge difference. It's certainly not everything, and Bill's dead right on courses where there is a lot of variability like wind and timed lights; but let me tell you that as someone who's been riding without a computer that calculates avg. speed for the last few years, it's a REALLY nice stat to have.

foamy

Okay then. Lots of variability with average speed. I was/am under the impression that tandems are, generally speaking, a bit faster than a single with the exception of climbing. I don't know how true that statement is, but I feel a little faster, generally, on the tandem than I do on the single. I do notice plowing through headwinds with a bit less effort, but with a lot more wind in my face.

Faster teams run about 20-22 on a "typical" group run? "B" group at 17-18? I expected as much. I think we'll try to find a group that we can hang with and let the averages fall where they may. She's wants to up the milage this weekend. Woo-hoo!

Thanks folks for the comments, encouragement and views. This thread has been educational.

chichi

[QUOTE=Oosbahnd&Weefay;10645639] so raising the speed on hill climbs by just a few miles an hour makes a huge difference. QUOTE]

by just a few miles an hour! by just a few! raising your speed by just a few miles an hour on hill climbs is no easy trick. Hopefully someone can help us define a hill. What passed for the "hill" back in Chicago would not even be mentioned in ride a description here in northern California.

Oosbahnd&Weefay

sorry. I suppose that's a little unfair coming from the 23 year old who works out (with wife) twice a week and trains as often as possible. If we spend a week working on hills, we can get our speeds up from the 8-12 mph range on steep hills (certainly not mountains) to 12-18 mph. I consider riding with someone as strong as my wife in back to be cheating.

chichi

Fifteen years ago I set a goal for getting my time on a local hill down to what I though would be a respectable number. I trained for a couple of months met my goal and unfortunately have not been able to repeat the performance. After training for a couple of months I was able to increase my average speed for the hill from 8.4 mph to 9.33 mph, I have heard that the record for this hill 7 mph. The hill is 7miles at 7% if you can do that at 12-18mph you might consider a career in the pro peleton. Another local hill you might practice on is Old La Honda 3.4 miles at 7% you should be able easily best the current record of 13.5mph set by Eric Heiden