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Santana Tandem, Rear Disc Brake, & Chris King Hubs

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Santana Tandem, Rear Disc Brake, & Chris King Hubs

Old 09-15-10, 07:01 PM
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TeamTi700
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Santana Tandem, Rear Disc Brake, & Chris King Hubs

After my disappointing Sweet-16 experiment, I decided to have a conventional wheelset built. I decided on Chris King hubs and Velocity Fusion rims, 32 front/36 rear, all in black.

I ordered the hubs online and found that the 160mm, disc rear hub was a special order. That meant about a 4 week wait. When I received the hubs I was able to "eyeball" that there was no way the disc adaptor was going to work. I contacted the website I ordered them from but they assured me it was correct. I then called Chris King. Their customer service was outstanding! They called Santana and found the correct (non-industry standard) measurment. It seems that I may be the first to use a Chris King hub on a Santana with a rear disc brake. They sent me the correct adaptor in no time. The part number for the adaptor is "PHB00411."

The wheels were completed and we currently have about 350 miles on them.

1. Ride quality is extremely close to the Sweet-16s. On very smooth roads I don't think I could tell the difference. On roads with a little "texture," the Sweet-16s feel slightly smoother. On rough roads, the King/Fusion wheels feel smoother. I'm not sure why that is.

2. My Sweet-16 wheelset came in at 2110 grams.
The King/Fusion wheelset came in at 1880 grams.

We look forward to putting some more miles on these wheels over the next couple months.
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Old 09-16-10, 08:21 AM
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New wheels are always nice. How's the buzz, or do you 2 always pedal. I was torn between CK/WI hubs. Petuluma's just down the road, so we went with WI.
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Old 09-16-10, 07:41 PM
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Chris King Buzz

I really should have addressed the "buzz" in my original post.

While most rear hubs have a "ratcheting" sound, Chris King hubs sound more like the buzz of a bee.

This buzz is not nearly as loud as the sound from my Hadley hub when coasting. We were quite happy to discover this and have no regrets about choosing Chris King.

I do wonder if this sound is louder with a deeper section rim.
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Old 09-17-10, 01:55 AM
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I need to address the Sweet 16 problems on our Beyond. Your set up sounds like a great solution for us as well. Where did you order the 160mm CK from? Can I specify the correct disc adapter from them when ordering or do I have to contact CK separately for the adapter?
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Old 09-17-10, 08:32 AM
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Regrets about Chris King components, I don't think so. We have lot's of his stuff, from headsets ( a couple 20yrs.old) to B.B's. Craftmanship at it's finest
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Old 09-17-10, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by djedgar View Post
I need to address the Sweet 16 problems on our Beyond. Your set up sounds like a great solution for us as well. Where did you order the 160mm CK from? Can I specify the correct disc adapter from them when ordering or do I have to contact CK separately for the adapter?
We bought our hubs on-line at https://www.wheelbuilder.com/

I would call them instead to place your order. Tell them that you are building wheels for a Santana (160mm rear spacing), with rear disc. Ask them to explain that to Chris King when they place the order. I worked with Mike Loftus at Chris King to get the correct adaptor. I would give them the adaptor part number that I posted above.

This is how our Santana looks with the new wheels.
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Old 09-24-10, 09:16 AM
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I just tuned in here because yesterday I experienced a broken spoke on our 8-year old 16 spoke Shimano rear wheel. ( they didn't call them Sweet 16s back then). Anyway upon close inspection I found numerous cracks at the rim spoke holes. I'm thinking to rebuild both front and wheels with new rims and spokes as the hubs are fine. These were the first generation wheels, probably the first or second pair to come out of Santana. But now I read of your problems with the newer Sweet 16s. What are you folks experiencing?
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Old 09-25-10, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by antiquepedaler View Post
... But now I read of your problems with the newer Sweet 16s. What are you folks experiencing?
I'm not sure what you are asking. My trouble with Santana and my Sweet-16s can be found here https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...-16-Experiment

Another thread on Sweet-16 failures can be found here https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?296873

Or were you looking for different experiences?
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Old 09-27-10, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by TeamTi700 View Post
I'm not sure what you are asking.
Or were you looking for different experiences?
Your links are just what I was looking for. I'm sure I'm out of luck for any compensation to my wheels considering their age. In addition to the broken spoke and cracks, I found chain damage to the hub when I removed the cassette. Considering all the tension related problems you folks have gone through with your "16s" I'll opt for some other replacement. Our Santana is a 2000 Team AL. We ordered it from Rich at GTG and rode it for two years with a steel fork and 48 spoke Shimano touring wheels while waiting for Santana to deliver the carbon fork and 16s. It's a great bike and remains our go-to bike. We've bought and sold others but keep riding the Santana. I prefer the quietness of Shimano hubs and have found them to be always reliable. We have one pair of 600s on a road bike that are 18 years old and still going strong.
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Old 09-27-10, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by antiquepedaler View Post
I'm sure I'm out of luck for any compensation to my wheels considering their age.
Santana would not honor their two year warranty on my 14 month old Sweet-16s.

Originally Posted by antiquepedaler View Post
I prefer the quietness of Shimano hubs and have found them to be always reliable.
I think you will be happy with the Shimano hubs. The only drawback is the limited amount of spoke drillings.
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Old 12-15-10, 06:16 PM
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Important Update

We began having trouble with the engagement of our rear hub after 800 miles. Following the instruction booklet that came with the hub, we checked the cogset lock ring. Next, we checked the "adjusting clamp" for correct tightness. The problem always returned after a couple rides. I called Chris King and they suggested it sounded like normal break in trouble. At 1300 miles I gave up and sent the rear wheel to Chris King. I turns out that we had already destroyed the aluminum driveshell. Chris King explained that EVERY Chris King (rear)tandem hub should have a stainless steel driveshell.

They took good care of us with outstanding customer service and we look forward to getting these wheels back on the road next spring.
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Old 12-15-10, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by TeamTi700 View Post
I turns out that we had already destroyed the aluminum driveshell. Chris King explained that EVERY Chris King (rear)tandem hub should have a stainless steel driveshell.
So... CK shipped your builder a 160mm rear tandem hub with an aluminum drive shell by accident or your wheelbuilder neglected to specify the stainless steel drive shell?
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Old 12-16-10, 09:01 AM
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Chris King

2k miles on our 36 hole 145mm Chris King rear hub without issue. Love the King "buzz" when descending.
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Old 12-16-10, 10:14 AM
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After ~3000 miles on our CK hubs, the Ring Drive stopped engaging reliably. I downloaded the manual from CK and did the basic clean and lube job. Grease had dried up, probably an early version of their special grease. The insides of those hubs look like something built for the space shuttle. Just did it again after a soaking rain ride. No water inside, just perfection. Seems to me the most intelligent way to build a rear hub, everything behind seals. Love the outboard roller bearing on the driveshell. Though we might have an aluminum driveshell, too. I'll have to check next time I pull the cassette. We've had a little notching on it, to where I mostly run in the big ring now, so we're running down on the spider.
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Old 12-16-10, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by TeamTi700 View Post
We bought our hubs on-line at https://www.wheelbuilder.com/

I would call them instead to place your order. Tell them that you are building wheels for a Santana (160mm rear spacing), with rear disc. Ask them to explain that to Chris King when they place the order. I worked with Mike Loftus at Chris King to get the correct adaptor. I would give them the adaptor part number that I posted above.

This is how our Santana looks with the new wheels.
What crankset is that? I've been looking for a high quality polished aluminum crankset for a while...
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Old 12-16-10, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
After ~3000 miles on our CK hubs... Though we might have an aluminum driveshell, too. I'll have to check next time I pull the cassette. We've had a little notching on it, to where I mostly run in the big ring now, so we're running down on the spider.
A little notching even in the stainless steel isn't all that unusual. Even using Shimano XT 9 speed cassettes that have the 5 larger sprockets on a carrier, those 4 individual cogs still put a few small impressions in our CK SS drive shell that you can in this posting from a while back: https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...=1#post7863730

However, if you were running, say, Shimano 10 speed Ultegra or even 9 speed Ultegra, I would expect to see a bit more notching, ref. this posting on Shimano's evil cassette design strategy: https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...er#post9112435

From the first posting that I linked to, you can find a photo of what a 10 speed Shimano Ultegra cassette did to a hard-annodized Topolino freehub / cassette carrier in just a few hundred miles with a moderate amount of climbing here in Atlanta; direct link to that posting here: https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...=1#post7868791
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Old 12-16-10, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by TandemGeek View Post
A little notching even in the stainless steel isn't all that unusual. Even using Shimano XT 9 speed cassettes that have the 5 larger sprockets on a carrier, those 4 individual cogs still put a few small impressions in our CK SS drive shell that you can in this posting from a while back: https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...=1#post7863730

However, if you were running, say, Shimano 10 speed Ultegra or even 9 speed Ultegra, I would expect to see a bit more notching, ref. this posting on Shimano's evil cassette design strategy: https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...er#post9112435

From the first posting that I linked to, you can find a photo of what a 10 speed Shimano Ultegra cassette did to a hard-annodized Topolino freehub / cassette carrier in just a few hundred miles with a moderate amount of climbing here in Atlanta; direct link to that posting here: https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...=1#post7868791
Thanks. It was your reply to my comment in your first link that got me using the big ring so much. That's worked fine. I usually run the big ring until I'm on the 3rd cog, then I'll shift to the middle ring. I think my notches look about like yours, so it probably is the SS driveshell. I'd forgotten your photo was of a CK hub. Thanks for the reminder.

We are running a 12-34 XTR cassette, the CS-M960. This is so much better than the 11-34 that came on the bike! Much easier to find a comfortable cruising gear because the middle ratios split out rather than duplicate. We don't miss the 11. By then, we're up the road anyway.
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Old 12-16-10, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by tiggermaxcocoa View Post
What crankset is that? I've been looking for a high quality polished aluminum crankset for a while...
Although those cranks don't look like daVinci's, the daVinci cranks are strong, light and look pretty good when polished up. They are tapered, however, if you lean toward something higher tech.
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Old 12-16-10, 05:41 PM
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We currently have 30,000+ miles on CK hubs on our Zona tandem.
As impressive as the Phils we used back in the 70s through 90s.
The CK-buzz is rather unique; we nicknamed our tandem 'the Hummer' because of the 'huuuuumm' sound when coasting.

Team Ti700: looks like drops on stoker bars may have been cut down a bit . . .


Pedal on TWOgether!
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Old 12-16-10, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by tiggermaxcocoa View Post
What crankset is that? I've been looking for a high quality polished aluminum crankset for a while...
Those are the original Ultegra cranks that came with the bike in 2001. Sadly, I believe they are no longer made.
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Old 12-16-10, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by zonatandem View Post
Team Ti700: looks like drops on stoker bars may have been cut down a bit . . .


Pedal on TWOgether!
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Those drop bars are just the way they came from Santana when we ordered the bike. My stoker prefers drop bars for the extra hand positions, and doesn't care for the look of bullhorn bars.
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Old 12-16-10, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
After ~3000 miles on our CK hubs, the Ring Drive stopped engaging reliably.... Though we might have an aluminum driveshell, too. I'll have to check next time I pull the cassette. We've had a little notching on it, to where I mostly run in the big ring now, so we're running down on the spider.
To be more clear, we had ground down the helical splines of the Ring Drive. I saw no wear on the part of the drive where the cassette is mounted.
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Old 12-16-10, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by TandemGeek View Post
So... CK shipped your builder a 160mm rear tandem hub with an aluminum drive shell by accident or your wheelbuilder neglected to specify the stainless steel drive shell?
I ordered the hubs from a website (mentioned earlier in this thread) without calling them. A lack of knowledge and experience lead me to believe I could just order a pair of tandem hubs in the color and spoke count I desired. I specified a disc version for the rear, with 160mm spacing. In hindsight I realize I should have called and explained that I was ordering for a Santana tandem.

In my original post I explained the problems I had with the hub being shipped with the wrong disc adapter. They were also shipped with Chris King's "Fun Bolts" instead of quickrelease adapters.

The Chris King website has a page on their tandem hubs. https://chrisking.com/hubs/hbs_tandem

This text is from that page. " The 160mm tandem rear hub uses our SingleSpeed Rear hubshell. The 160mm rear also builds a very strong, symetrical rear wheel."

Had I let the website know the application I was going to use the hub for, they could have communicated that to Chris King and possibly avoided these problems. My builder was not involved in this purchase. I just handed the hubs to him, and specified the rims, spokes, and nipples I wanted.

Last edited by TeamTi700; 12-17-10 at 05:02 PM.
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