Paketa V2r
02-19-11, 01:34 AM
#1
Tandem Vincitur
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Paketa V2r
Saw on Flickr some recent professional and detailed photos of a striking Paketa V2r, with many interesting features.
It is definitely a very lightweight build, though a large frame it probably weighs about 22-24 lbs. The candy apple red is nice, though it would have been better to include the fork in the scheme. The wheels look to be conventional half-bike wheels, the 1530 gram AC 420 AERO 3. Hmmmm. The magnesium calipers are interesting (these list for $570), but aren't thought to be as strong as DA, so not confidence inspiring for a tandem. It has the Gates drive using up the granny gear, so only a double with the enormous cassette. I can't tell if it has a mount for a rear disc. That's a nice stoker stem.
The label says Handmade in the USA. Paketa what with their magnesium uniqueness and entries like this would be a natural for NAHBS, but Paketa isn't exhibiting.
V2r candy apple red:A beautiful new V2r built up for a tall captain and stoker.
Paketa V2r tandem:candy apple red
V2r yoke: this custom yoke is an important part of the V2r frame. It's part of what gives clearance to have the timing belt on the drive side.
gates carbon drive:we mount the gates carbon drive system to the drive side on the V2r, allowing for use of any 130bcd road bike crankset.
TRP magnesium brakes
Paketa tandem bike with ENVE road 2.0 fork.
adjustable carbon fiber stoker stem
It is definitely a very lightweight build, though a large frame it probably weighs about 22-24 lbs. The candy apple red is nice, though it would have been better to include the fork in the scheme. The wheels look to be conventional half-bike wheels, the 1530 gram AC 420 AERO 3. Hmmmm. The magnesium calipers are interesting (these list for $570), but aren't thought to be as strong as DA, so not confidence inspiring for a tandem. It has the Gates drive using up the granny gear, so only a double with the enormous cassette. I can't tell if it has a mount for a rear disc. That's a nice stoker stem.
The label says Handmade in the USA. Paketa what with their magnesium uniqueness and entries like this would be a natural for NAHBS, but Paketa isn't exhibiting.
V2r candy apple red:A beautiful new V2r built up for a tall captain and stoker.
Paketa V2r tandem:candy apple red
V2r yoke: this custom yoke is an important part of the V2r frame. It's part of what gives clearance to have the timing belt on the drive side.
gates carbon drive:we mount the gates carbon drive system to the drive side on the V2r, allowing for use of any 130bcd road bike crankset.
TRP magnesium brakes
Paketa tandem bike with ENVE road 2.0 fork.
adjustable carbon fiber stoker stem
02-19-11, 09:56 AM
#2
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Every time I look at the drivetrains with the Gates belt on the drive side I always wonder how it impacts chainline.
On this build are the wheels and fork up to tandem duty?
On this build are the wheels and fork up to tandem duty?
02-19-11, 11:59 AM
#3
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The fork is fine, my Edge 2.0 fork has been great.
As for the wheels, I'll bet that if we see a pic of the bike in use a year from now, it will have something other than those wheels.
02-19-11, 01:14 PM
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The wheels... probably have to ask Dave if American Classic did anything special for these wheels.
TandemGeek's Blog entry #1 on Paketa with lots of Q&A with Dave Walker
TandemGeek's Blog entry #2 on Paketa; a reset.
02-20-11, 07:17 AM
#5
Senior Member
[QUOTE=Ritterview;12249741]When I see these drivetrains, I think of the large jumps between the cogs. The tandem is built to be light, and light is for climbing. For climbing on tandem a triple is needed. This set-up has it that the cassette will do the the job of the triple, but this is at a cost of shifting efficiency. The weight saved by having a double (which isn't that much) cannot hope to make up for the loss of shifting efficiency.
Sram makes a 2 X 10 for its mountain groups and this concept maybe used on the Paketa. I agree with Ritterview, a triple works much better for the majority of tandem teams. I don't understand the resistance to triples.
Sram makes a 2 X 10 for its mountain groups and this concept maybe used on the Paketa. I agree with Ritterview, a triple works much better for the majority of tandem teams. I don't understand the resistance to triples.
02-20-11, 08:34 AM
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So, the logic goes, if you're running close-ratio 23t - 28t nine or ten speed cassettes today with a triple, you don't lose all that much by going to a 2x10 drive train UNLESS you spend a lot of time in those taller climbing gears.
Mind you, I'm not making a case for or against the 2x10... just sharing the builder's logic. I delved into a lot of this in the blog entry I mentioned above.
So, here are the things in the on-line copy that didn’t resonate with me and challenged my understanding of the pros and cons of the Gates Carbon Drive sync belt for tandems, starting with the ‘better’ gearing system, which reads:
As I mentioned earlier, for high-performance teams who ride tight ratio cassettes like an 11-23, the right side drive V2r makes sense and would be an attractive package. In fact, I just ran the numbers on the gear inches and was pretty surprised at how closely they did match up to the 11x28t triple… OK, I was REALLY surprised. So surprised that I’ve actually re-visited this blog entry and made some changes and I must thank Terry Malouf who is one of the owners of the first Paketa V2r for responding and making me do a re-read of what I wrote. However, that said, I still believe that for more average fast recreational / sport teams who must deal with any steep stuff, those folks will really need to be really honest with themselves regarding their current gearing: could they really live with just a 30x28t. If so, this might be a good option. However, if they ever needed something shorter than a 28″ gear… noting that a 30x32t granny yields a 24.9″ gear and a 30x34t granny yields a 23.3″ gear, they could find themselves walking a few hills.
Let’s take a closer look at the Paketa 2×10 scenario that saves 1lb: “With a 39/53 double sprocket in front and 11X36 cassette in back, the gear range is identical to a road 30/39/53 triple crank with an 11X28 cassette“. Here’s how those two different cassettes stack-up:
(Click HERE to see graphic stack-up of gear inch comparison)
This is what you give up…11-28: 11-12-13-14-15-17-19-21-24-28
And this is what you get…11-36: 11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-36
Again, potential buyers really need to be sure they can deal with whatever length and grade climbs they expect to encounter with nothing larger than what they could have handled with a 53/39/30t triple and an 11x28t cassette. Most tandems these days tend to come with an 11x34t cassette, which is a very different animal than an 11x28t.
For reference, we’re hardly elite racers but we do tend to fall into the demographic that does the suggested fast sport riding and rides higher-end performance tandems. Here’s our “normal” gearing for hilly but not the really steep stuff… a very nice progression:
12-27: 12-13-14-15-16-17-19-21-24-27
Pending release of the 11x32t Shimano CS-M771 cassette, the first cassette listed below (an 11x32t 9 speed) is our current ‘alpine’ gearing. It’s less than ideal with that awkward 18 to 21t jump that we have to deal with a lot on moderately long or steep climbs. Thankfully, the 11X32 CS-M771 will beak that up a bit. Again, here’s how all these different cassettes stack-up:
11-32: 11-12-14-16-18- 21 – 24 – 28-32
12-27: 12-13-14-15-16-17-19-21-24-27
11-28: 11-12-13-14-15-17-19-21-24-28
11-32: 11-12-14-16-18-20-22-25-28-32
11-36: 11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-36
Compact drives and doubles have not been the hot ticket for tandems, heretofore. Now, as is always the way with bicycles, with Shimano & SRAM’s introduction of 2×10 systems for off-road bikes they’ll likely become more common, just as compact drive did for the road and 29′er bikes for off-road. So, perhaps 2×10 drives on road tandems are inevitable. However, there are limits to just how flexible a 2×10 drive train can be, and therein lies the problem with the marketing spin: it’s trying to over-reach and make a credible product offering appealing to consumers under the allure of ‘lighter weight and better shifting‘ who may not be well-served by that product over the long-haul. Obviously, the V2r can always be fitted with a crossover crankset that would allow for the use of a triple, so it doesn’t lock in an owner to the right-side drive / double chain ring configuration.
What sticks in the back of my mind is, it’s been my observation that the stronger tandem teams of median income will have only one tandem they use for everything vs. a dedicated race machine, and they still keep that granny gear on the bike with their 11x23t or 11x25t cassettes for use as a ‘bail-out’ gear when they find themselves on those longish double-digit grades or run into a wall while touring or attending a rally away from their normal terrain. Yes, we’ve seen one or two teams with older Santana Team tandems from the 90′s that had DuraAce doubles or somewhat newer tandems with unused granny gears hammering up some 18-20% grades, but they’re the exception and not the rule. However, I’m not sure they’d have been willing to give up their closer ratio cassettes for what the 11×36 offers. But, to be fair, that’s just a guess since none of these teams were all that concerned about or giving up much in the way of their dominating performance as they rode their 40lb tandems up those walls vs. mere mortals with deeper pockets who struggled up using the granny rings and the largest sprocket they had on the newer 30 lb lightweights and exotics.
It’s also worth noting that another tandem builder has been dangling a compact 11x36t drive train set-up with a Di2 option out there for 2-years or so. It would be interesting to know how many of those have been sold and what folks think of them, as well as how they’re being used since that is fairly important too. For example, I ride a compact drive on my single (50/36) and it’s great, but… not sure I’d want to use it on the tandem where we live and ride. You give up a lot of useful gear range that, while you don’t use it a lot on the tandem, you appreciate that it’s there for those infrequent occasions when you want to spin-out that 53/11 gear (and it happens a lot sooner in a 50/11) or you hit a wall that you just rather not grind-out standing on the pedals at 50 rpm.
Finally, I still don’t get the spin on “Say goodbye to triple front shifters and substandard front shifting!”. It must be a Shimano STI thing, as I just don’t hear of folks who use bar-ends or Campy Ergo having front shifting problems, except where their technique is all screwed-up, i.e., trying to shift under load and way too late. Well, and then there’s always the problem where so few mechanics know how to work on tandems, which also leads to problems. But I digress.
Better gearing system
As for gearing range and shifting, the V2r again excels. The combination of 2X10 road and MTB gearing provides the same wide range as a conventional triple-chain-ring road setup. With a 39/53 double sprocket in front and 11X36 cassette in back (as shown in the photos), the gear range is identical to a road 30/39/53 triple crank with an 11X28 cassette—certainly enough for most any tandem team interested in racing or fast sport riding, for sure. And, with a double sprocket in front, the shifting precision is as good as any single bike, and any road shifter compatible with a matching MTB rear derailleur and cassette will work (SRAM™ Red™ Double Tap™ shifters, Red™ front deraiiluer, SRAM™ XX™ cassette and XX™ rear derailleur shown). Say goodbye to triple front shifters and substandard front shifting!
As for gearing range and shifting, the V2r again excels. The combination of 2X10 road and MTB gearing provides the same wide range as a conventional triple-chain-ring road setup. With a 39/53 double sprocket in front and 11X36 cassette in back (as shown in the photos), the gear range is identical to a road 30/39/53 triple crank with an 11X28 cassette—certainly enough for most any tandem team interested in racing or fast sport riding, for sure. And, with a double sprocket in front, the shifting precision is as good as any single bike, and any road shifter compatible with a matching MTB rear derailleur and cassette will work (SRAM™ Red™ Double Tap™ shifters, Red™ front deraiiluer, SRAM™ XX™ cassette and XX™ rear derailleur shown). Say goodbye to triple front shifters and substandard front shifting!
As I mentioned earlier, for high-performance teams who ride tight ratio cassettes like an 11-23, the right side drive V2r makes sense and would be an attractive package. In fact, I just ran the numbers on the gear inches and was pretty surprised at how closely they did match up to the 11x28t triple… OK, I was REALLY surprised. So surprised that I’ve actually re-visited this blog entry and made some changes and I must thank Terry Malouf who is one of the owners of the first Paketa V2r for responding and making me do a re-read of what I wrote. However, that said, I still believe that for more average fast recreational / sport teams who must deal with any steep stuff, those folks will really need to be really honest with themselves regarding their current gearing: could they really live with just a 30x28t. If so, this might be a good option. However, if they ever needed something shorter than a 28″ gear… noting that a 30x32t granny yields a 24.9″ gear and a 30x34t granny yields a 23.3″ gear, they could find themselves walking a few hills.
Let’s take a closer look at the Paketa 2×10 scenario that saves 1lb: “With a 39/53 double sprocket in front and 11X36 cassette in back, the gear range is identical to a road 30/39/53 triple crank with an 11X28 cassette“. Here’s how those two different cassettes stack-up:
(Click HERE to see graphic stack-up of gear inch comparison)
This is what you give up…11-28: 11-12-13-14-15-17-19-21-24-28
And this is what you get…11-36: 11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-36
Again, potential buyers really need to be sure they can deal with whatever length and grade climbs they expect to encounter with nothing larger than what they could have handled with a 53/39/30t triple and an 11x28t cassette. Most tandems these days tend to come with an 11x34t cassette, which is a very different animal than an 11x28t.
For reference, we’re hardly elite racers but we do tend to fall into the demographic that does the suggested fast sport riding and rides higher-end performance tandems. Here’s our “normal” gearing for hilly but not the really steep stuff… a very nice progression:
12-27: 12-13-14-15-16-17-19-21-24-27
Pending release of the 11x32t Shimano CS-M771 cassette, the first cassette listed below (an 11x32t 9 speed) is our current ‘alpine’ gearing. It’s less than ideal with that awkward 18 to 21t jump that we have to deal with a lot on moderately long or steep climbs. Thankfully, the 11X32 CS-M771 will beak that up a bit. Again, here’s how all these different cassettes stack-up:
11-32: 11-12-14-16-18- 21 – 24 – 28-32
12-27: 12-13-14-15-16-17-19-21-24-27
11-28: 11-12-13-14-15-17-19-21-24-28
11-32: 11-12-14-16-18-20-22-25-28-32
11-36: 11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-36
Compact drives and doubles have not been the hot ticket for tandems, heretofore. Now, as is always the way with bicycles, with Shimano & SRAM’s introduction of 2×10 systems for off-road bikes they’ll likely become more common, just as compact drive did for the road and 29′er bikes for off-road. So, perhaps 2×10 drives on road tandems are inevitable. However, there are limits to just how flexible a 2×10 drive train can be, and therein lies the problem with the marketing spin: it’s trying to over-reach and make a credible product offering appealing to consumers under the allure of ‘lighter weight and better shifting‘ who may not be well-served by that product over the long-haul. Obviously, the V2r can always be fitted with a crossover crankset that would allow for the use of a triple, so it doesn’t lock in an owner to the right-side drive / double chain ring configuration.
What sticks in the back of my mind is, it’s been my observation that the stronger tandem teams of median income will have only one tandem they use for everything vs. a dedicated race machine, and they still keep that granny gear on the bike with their 11x23t or 11x25t cassettes for use as a ‘bail-out’ gear when they find themselves on those longish double-digit grades or run into a wall while touring or attending a rally away from their normal terrain. Yes, we’ve seen one or two teams with older Santana Team tandems from the 90′s that had DuraAce doubles or somewhat newer tandems with unused granny gears hammering up some 18-20% grades, but they’re the exception and not the rule. However, I’m not sure they’d have been willing to give up their closer ratio cassettes for what the 11×36 offers. But, to be fair, that’s just a guess since none of these teams were all that concerned about or giving up much in the way of their dominating performance as they rode their 40lb tandems up those walls vs. mere mortals with deeper pockets who struggled up using the granny rings and the largest sprocket they had on the newer 30 lb lightweights and exotics.
It’s also worth noting that another tandem builder has been dangling a compact 11x36t drive train set-up with a Di2 option out there for 2-years or so. It would be interesting to know how many of those have been sold and what folks think of them, as well as how they’re being used since that is fairly important too. For example, I ride a compact drive on my single (50/36) and it’s great, but… not sure I’d want to use it on the tandem where we live and ride. You give up a lot of useful gear range that, while you don’t use it a lot on the tandem, you appreciate that it’s there for those infrequent occasions when you want to spin-out that 53/11 gear (and it happens a lot sooner in a 50/11) or you hit a wall that you just rather not grind-out standing on the pedals at 50 rpm.
Finally, I still don’t get the spin on “Say goodbye to triple front shifters and substandard front shifting!”. It must be a Shimano STI thing, as I just don’t hear of folks who use bar-ends or Campy Ergo having front shifting problems, except where their technique is all screwed-up, i.e., trying to shift under load and way too late. Well, and then there’s always the problem where so few mechanics know how to work on tandems, which also leads to problems. But I digress.
02-20-11, 11:27 AM
#7
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Lust is a dangerous thing. If only stoker would hit the lottery.
02-20-11, 02:38 PM
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I think it could work well. I would combine it with a compact crankset and then you wouldn't need to use as wide a spacing on the rear cluster. We have been using a 34/49 with a 11-25 cluster on our Bob Jackson and quite like it.
You can ride all the flats and downhills on the 49 and for uphills the 34 is ideal. Can still pedal to 50mph+ with the 49-11 as well.
This is excluding riding in very hilly/mountainous terrain in which case there is no substitute for a triple.
You can ride all the flats and downhills on the 49 and for uphills the 34 is ideal. Can still pedal to 50mph+ with the 49-11 as well.
This is excluding riding in very hilly/mountainous terrain in which case there is no substitute for a triple.
02-20-11, 04:22 PM
#9
Full Member
That equates to about 140 RPM, which I don't think is achievable by many teams.
I know we spin out our 52-11 much above 40 MPH (~ 110 RPM) and I spin out a 53-12 on my single at about 45 MPH (~ 130 RPM), and I do regular fixed gear training (I can push the fixed gear to ~ 150 RPM).
I suspect most teams will want to keep a "normal" big ring if they ride in any territory with significant descending.
The SRAM stuff can be setup with 36/52 chainring combo, this might get low enough for some teams without sacrificing top end.
I know we spin out our 52-11 much above 40 MPH (~ 110 RPM) and I spin out a 53-12 on my single at about 45 MPH (~ 130 RPM), and I do regular fixed gear training (I can push the fixed gear to ~ 150 RPM).
I suspect most teams will want to keep a "normal" big ring if they ride in any territory with significant descending.
The SRAM stuff can be setup with 36/52 chainring combo, this might get low enough for some teams without sacrificing top end.
02-21-11, 05:30 AM
#10
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Paketa V2r = Awesome!!
We have a Silver V2r, I think it was made just before the red one.
This bike is awesome! 23 lbs with pedals & cages. The 2x10 works great for us. No chain line problems at all. Smooth shifting with SRAM RED & Q rings. Very fast and super smooth riding bike. The first time we had it out we cruised around at 23mph without any effort. Cranked it up to 32 mph just for grins only 18 mins into the ride. Not even close to warmed up yet. We had to take it easy as we had a 9hr MTB race in only four days.
We have not been to the hills yet. But, looking at the numbers, and knowing our team capabilities, I don't see any problems with the gearing.
Rick
This bike is awesome! 23 lbs with pedals & cages. The 2x10 works great for us. No chain line problems at all. Smooth shifting with SRAM RED & Q rings. Very fast and super smooth riding bike. The first time we had it out we cruised around at 23mph without any effort. Cranked it up to 32 mph just for grins only 18 mins into the ride. Not even close to warmed up yet. We had to take it easy as we had a 9hr MTB race in only four days.
We have not been to the hills yet. But, looking at the numbers, and knowing our team capabilities, I don't see any problems with the gearing.
Rick
02-21-11, 07:07 AM
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Rick, post a pic of that silver beauty, pls. I see you are a "neighbor." Where abouts are you?
02-21-11, 10:05 AM
#12
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There are some interesting welds in interesting places. I wonder how hard it is to weld magnesium?
02-21-11, 10:44 AM
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The wheels would fall apart in 6mos. in my neck of the woods. And the brakes. How am I going to stop @ 50mph 15% grade, use the run off ramp? Light is nice, but my wifes the stoker.
02-21-11, 12:11 PM
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I'll get some pics when its complete with the permanent stems.
02-22-11, 01:34 AM
#16
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Originally Posted by Paketa
Lighter weight bike
While weight savings is merely one of the many advantages of the V2r design, many teams striving for lighter weight will immediately appreciate the difference. A V2r can easily save a pound (454 grams) overall compared to even our own industry-leading V2 design. The weight savings comes in with eliminating one spider-mount arm (two instead of three, as with the conventional left-side transfer drive) and the ability to use two lighter-weight single-bike cranks in place of a heavier tandem-specific front-and-rear crank pair.
While weight savings is merely one of the many advantages of the V2r design, many teams striving for lighter weight will immediately appreciate the difference. A V2r can easily save a pound (454 grams) overall compared to even our own industry-leading V2 design. The weight savings comes in with eliminating one spider-mount arm (two instead of three, as with the conventional left-side transfer drive) and the ability to use two lighter-weight single-bike cranks in place of a heavier tandem-specific front-and-rear crank pair.
If you start with an already light Lightning tandem crank, the difference between triple and double isn't anywhere near 1 lb. The triple's extra weight, which consists the addition to a double crankset of:
30T Chainring: 40 grams
Spyder: 50 grams
Chainring bolts: 10 grams
Total: 100 grams
...is only 100 grams, or 0.22 lbs.
We can see from the photo that there is extra magnesium material needed in the custom 'V2r yoke...an important part of the V2r frame....what gives clearance to have the timing belt on the drive side', and this weighs something (50 grams?), and if there isn't sufficient extra material there, then bottom bracket flex may increase.
The 11-36 SRAM XX Cassette looks huge, and that has got to weigh. Actually, SRAM's CNC Power Dome construction does an excellent job keeping the weight down, and it weighs 208 grams. In comparison (I'll compare what I have) a Campy 11-speed SR 12-27 and 12-29 cassette weighs 206 grams and 220 grams respectively.
There is a weight difference in the rear derailleur. The medium-cage SRAM XX RD weighs 181 grams, and the long-cage needed for the 11-36 probably about 195 (?). Campy's SR 11-speed has only a short cage RD, but will shift a 12-29 cassette with a triple, and it weighs 157 grams, or 38 grams less.
As mentioned, the Paketa uses the discontinued Zipp 300 double crankset, which at 646 grams with ISIS BB is at least 50 grams heavier than a Lightning double, for 100 grams difference total. The use of the ISIS Zipp suggests that the Paketa's unconventional chainring spacing precludes external bearing cranks, as the spindle would be too short.
The Lightning has the modern external BB, which has largely superseded internal BB, and may have reduced friction (I haven't verified this).
So, even if you are getting this right-drive double set-up in order to save weight, the actual weight savings are trivial to none or even negative, if compared to a Lightning triple. I haven't tried to figure out the cost aspect of all this, presuming this is lower on the priority list of someone purchasing $600 magnesium calipers.
The relatively wide Gates drive on the inside must send the two chainrings out farther than is conventional. As mentioned, this may affect chainline. So too might this affect front shifting. I can't tell from the photographs if there is some modification or adapter to the front derailleur clamp to adjust to a different chainring position. If there is, one wouldn't expect this to improve shifting.
In all, it seems like a lot of effort has gone into getting rid of the triple as if that was an end in itself. There is actually little weight advantage, and neither is it clear that front shifting will improve.
02-22-11, 05:12 AM
#17
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Most of this weight savings is in using lightweight half-bike cranks (here Paketa uses the 646 gram and discontinued ISIS BB Zipp 300), and ditching the hefty default FSA SLK tandem crankset.
If you start with an already light Lightning tandem crank, the difference between triple and double isn't anywhere near 1 lb. The triple's extra weight, which consists the addition to a double crankset of:
30T Chainring: 40 grams
Spyder: 50 grams
Chainring bolts: 10 grams
Total: 100 grams
...is only 100 grams, or 0.22 lbs.
We can see from the photo that there is extra magnesium material needed in the custom 'V2r yoke...an important part of the V2r frame....what gives clearance to have the timing belt on the drive side', and this weighs something (50 grams?), and if there isn't sufficient extra material there, then bottom bracket flex may increase.
The 11-36 SRAM XX Cassette looks huge, and that has got to weigh. Actually, SRAM's CNC Power Dome construction does an excellent job keeping the weight down, and it weighs 208 grams. In comparison (I'll compare what I have) a Campy 11-speed SR 12-27 and 12-29 cassette weighs 206 grams and 220 grams respectively.
There is a weight difference in the rear derailleur. The medium-cage SRAM XX RD weighs 181 grams, and the long-cage needed for the 11-36 probably about 195 (?). Campy's SR 11-speed has only a short cage RD, but will shift a 12-29 cassette with a triple, and it weighs 157 grams, or 38 grams less.
As mentioned, the Paketa uses the discontinued Zipp 300 double crankset, which at 646 grams with ISIS BB is at least 50 grams heavier than a Lightning double, for 100 grams difference total. The use of the ISIS Zipp suggests that the Paketa's unconventional chainring spacing precludes external bearing cranks, as the spindle would be too short.
The Lightning has the modern external BB, which has largely superseded internal BB, and may have reduced friction (I haven't verified this).
So, even if you are getting this right-drive double set-up in order to save weight, the actual weight savings are trivial to none or even negative, if compared to a Lightning triple. I haven't tried to figure out the cost aspect of all this, presuming this is lower on the priority list of someone purchasing $600 magnesium calipers.
The relatively wide Gates drive on the inside must send the two chainrings out farther than is conventional. As mentioned, this may affect chainline. So too might this affect front shifting. I can't tell from the photographs if there is some modification or adapter to the front derailleur clamp to adjust to a different chainring position. If there is, one wouldn't expect this to improve shifting.
In all, it seems like a lot of effort has gone into getting rid of the triple as if that was an end in itself. There is actually little weight advantage, and neither is it clear that front shifting will improve.
If you start with an already light Lightning tandem crank, the difference between triple and double isn't anywhere near 1 lb. The triple's extra weight, which consists the addition to a double crankset of:
30T Chainring: 40 grams
Spyder: 50 grams
Chainring bolts: 10 grams
Total: 100 grams
...is only 100 grams, or 0.22 lbs.
We can see from the photo that there is extra magnesium material needed in the custom 'V2r yoke...an important part of the V2r frame....what gives clearance to have the timing belt on the drive side', and this weighs something (50 grams?), and if there isn't sufficient extra material there, then bottom bracket flex may increase.
The 11-36 SRAM XX Cassette looks huge, and that has got to weigh. Actually, SRAM's CNC Power Dome construction does an excellent job keeping the weight down, and it weighs 208 grams. In comparison (I'll compare what I have) a Campy 11-speed SR 12-27 and 12-29 cassette weighs 206 grams and 220 grams respectively.
There is a weight difference in the rear derailleur. The medium-cage SRAM XX RD weighs 181 grams, and the long-cage needed for the 11-36 probably about 195 (?). Campy's SR 11-speed has only a short cage RD, but will shift a 12-29 cassette with a triple, and it weighs 157 grams, or 38 grams less.
As mentioned, the Paketa uses the discontinued Zipp 300 double crankset, which at 646 grams with ISIS BB is at least 50 grams heavier than a Lightning double, for 100 grams difference total. The use of the ISIS Zipp suggests that the Paketa's unconventional chainring spacing precludes external bearing cranks, as the spindle would be too short.
The Lightning has the modern external BB, which has largely superseded internal BB, and may have reduced friction (I haven't verified this).
So, even if you are getting this right-drive double set-up in order to save weight, the actual weight savings are trivial to none or even negative, if compared to a Lightning triple. I haven't tried to figure out the cost aspect of all this, presuming this is lower on the priority list of someone purchasing $600 magnesium calipers.
The relatively wide Gates drive on the inside must send the two chainrings out farther than is conventional. As mentioned, this may affect chainline. So too might this affect front shifting. I can't tell from the photographs if there is some modification or adapter to the front derailleur clamp to adjust to a different chainring position. If there is, one wouldn't expect this to improve shifting.
In all, it seems like a lot of effort has gone into getting rid of the triple as if that was an end in itself. There is actually little weight advantage, and neither is it clear that front shifting will improve.
Like I wrote in another post. My wife and I love the bike. It works great. No flex, with a very smooth ride. It also accelerates like mad. I really don't understand all the negativity towards the double. If you don't like it, don't buy it. If you want a fast race machine, this is the bike.
Pick your bike, pick your drivetrain, wheels and brakes. But don't pick on other peoples builds just because they don't suit your needs or capabilities.
02-22-11, 05:53 AM
#18
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Our V2r has lightning cranks with external bearings. A standard front derailleur clamp. The boom tube has indentations to accommodate the gates pulleys. This along with the yoke on the chainstay, keeps the chainring location and q factor "normal".
Like I wrote in another post. My wife and I love the bike. It works great. No flex, with a very smooth ride. It also accelerates like mad. I really don't understand all the negativity towards the double. If you don't like it, don't buy it. If you want a fast race machine, this is the bike.
Pick your bike, pick your drivetrain, wheels and brakes. But don't pick on other peoples builds just because they don't suit your needs or capabilities.
Like I wrote in another post. My wife and I love the bike. It works great. No flex, with a very smooth ride. It also accelerates like mad. I really don't understand all the negativity towards the double. If you don't like it, don't buy it. If you want a fast race machine, this is the bike.
Pick your bike, pick your drivetrain, wheels and brakes. But don't pick on other peoples builds just because they don't suit your needs or capabilities.
The all right side drive with a 2x9 is something we spent a lot of miles on with our 29r Fandango off road tandem. Our setup utilized the outboard chainring location for the timing ring turning on otbd bearing Shimano LX cranks.
It was run many miles off road. Not perfect on account of the drive chain would randomly and inconsistently overtravel and get bound up.
The nice things with right side drive are crank selections and no twisting loads into the aft BB area and no constant diagonal loads in the rear BB shaft and bearings. It looks nice also.
For us, random overtravel of the drive chain would instantly stop us.
Done right, right side drive works. We spent many miles without a problem.
As for gearing limitations or gear spacing for each selection, this topic alone proves the priorities for teams can vary.
I'm not sure where this tandem V2r lives in Florida, but hopefully some day we will see it and maybe they will slow down for a moment as they pass us and let us check it out.
Bikes like this and Carmichael Training waterbottles, sometimes come with unknowns...plan accordingly.
PK
02-22-11, 06:18 AM
#19
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The all right side drive with a 2x9 is something we spent a lot of miles on with our 29r Fandango off road tandem. Our setup utilized the outboard chainring location for the timing ring turning on otbd bearing Shimano LX cranks.
It was run many miles off road. Not perfect on account of the drive chain would randomly and inconsistently overtravel and get bound up.
The nice things with right side drive are crank selections and no twisting loads into the aft BB area and no constant diagonal loads in the rear BB shaft and bearings. It looks nice also.
For us, random overtravel of the drive chain would instantly stop us.
Done right, right side drive works. We spent many miles without a problem.
As for gearing limitations or gear spacing for each selection, this topic alone proves the priorities for teams can vary.
I'm not sure where this tandem V2r lives in Florida, but hopefully some day we will see it and maybe they will slow down for a moment as they pass us and let us check it out.
Bikes like this and Carmichael Training waterbottles, sometimes come with unknowns...plan accordingly.
PK
It was run many miles off road. Not perfect on account of the drive chain would randomly and inconsistently overtravel and get bound up.
The nice things with right side drive are crank selections and no twisting loads into the aft BB area and no constant diagonal loads in the rear BB shaft and bearings. It looks nice also.
For us, random overtravel of the drive chain would instantly stop us.
Done right, right side drive works. We spent many miles without a problem.
As for gearing limitations or gear spacing for each selection, this topic alone proves the priorities for teams can vary.
I'm not sure where this tandem V2r lives in Florida, but hopefully some day we will see it and maybe they will slow down for a moment as they pass us and let us check it out.
Bikes like this and Carmichael Training waterbottles, sometimes come with unknowns...plan accordingly.
PK
We live in Jacksonville. I would love to see your 29er tandem. My wife and I are avid MTBers. Did you do Tour de Felasco this year? There were several tandems out there.
Rick
02-22-11, 08:53 AM
#20
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Rick,
It's certainly a beautiful tandem and likely very well suited for the purposes of many teams. My take is that some of the commentary, both objective and subjective, is aimed a bit at Paketa's marketing, not at the your choice of ride, but selling product is all about marketing? It's not the bike for seniors such as my wife and I - we need our 24-32 to get up the climbs around here and we don't even live in the Rockies, but if we turned the clock back 30 years we'd certainly be intrigued (and darn fast I think!)
It's certainly a beautiful tandem and likely very well suited for the purposes of many teams. My take is that some of the commentary, both objective and subjective, is aimed a bit at Paketa's marketing, not at the your choice of ride, but selling product is all about marketing? It's not the bike for seniors such as my wife and I - we need our 24-32 to get up the climbs around here and we don't even live in the Rockies, but if we turned the clock back 30 years we'd certainly be intrigued (and darn fast I think!)
02-22-11, 09:34 AM
#22
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Rick,
It's certainly a beautiful tandem and likely very well suited for the purposes of many teams. My take is that some of the commentary, both objective and subjective, is aimed a bit at Paketa's marketing, not at the your choice of ride, but selling product is all about marketing? It's not the bike for seniors such as my wife and I - we need our 24-32 to get up the climbs around here and we don't even live in the Rockies, but if we turned the clock back 30 years we'd certainly be intrigued (and darn fast I think!)
It's certainly a beautiful tandem and likely very well suited for the purposes of many teams. My take is that some of the commentary, both objective and subjective, is aimed a bit at Paketa's marketing, not at the your choice of ride, but selling product is all about marketing? It's not the bike for seniors such as my wife and I - we need our 24-32 to get up the climbs around here and we don't even live in the Rockies, but if we turned the clock back 30 years we'd certainly be intrigued (and darn fast I think!)
I agree some of the commentary is aimed at Paketa's marketing. Others just forget they are talking about somebody's pride & joy.
I realize this bike is not for everyone. No bike is. I also know the triple is in our tandem future. Time marches on. But for now, we will have fun with this bike while we can.
Thanks for you post!
Rick
02-22-11, 09:37 AM
#24
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Hi PK, thanks for the positive feedback. Good to hear you like the right side timing setup too. I guess you actually have to try it to appreciate the efficiency of it.
We live in Jacksonville. I would love to see your 29er tandem. My wife and I are avid MTBers. Did you do Tour de Felasco this year? There were several tandems out there.
Rick
We live in Jacksonville. I would love to see your 29er tandem. My wife and I are avid MTBers. Did you do Tour de Felasco this year? There were several tandems out there.
Rick
I don't want to sidetrack this too much from the V2r. Yes we did attend San Felasco. There were three tandems at the event. A red Fandango 29r of the Judds, a Blue Fandango 29r of Jamie and Jennifers and our White Fandango 29r.
As much good times as we had on our 2x9 all right side drive, San Felasco was the the last current right side drive ride. Early on it worked fine with no problems, then with dust and ??? it got temperamental. Suffice to say, unless it was sections I recalled from previous years, we rode the majority in the 36t front big ring.
The current setup now has the same 2x9, with an outer chain guide / bashguard, but sports tandem cranks and a left / right drive setup.
https://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=638913
We plan to be at Santos in March, along with some other teams. Alex is slated to bring his demo off-road fleet, so, if you never tried off-road tandeming, Santos is a great place to try it.
Now I ask in curiosity, will the bike and you two be riding the St Augustine ?? ride in a couple of weeks? I'd love to see the machine there if you attend. Not sure if the Flyin" Robustas will be there either.
I'm sure we will have another all right side drive tandem at some point. Possibly when this current drivetrain wears out I'll build the Co-Mo as 2x10 on the right.
Like so much though, we have a good bike and it does well for us. I tried to get it all by building a 4x9. Close spacing with a huge amount of possible gearing choices. The drawback is the person shifting needs to be well aware of what gearset is selected and not slack the chain or wear the front der. I get away with this since we run flat bars and XO twist shifters. Like gearing, just a riding position we are comfy with and enjoy. Seems to work ok as we don't get dropped to bad and are having fun.
PK
Last edited by PMK; 02-22-11 at 09:42 AM.
02-22-11, 12:03 PM
#25
Tandem Vincitur
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With the custom yoke, Paketa purchasers can make statements with their cranks. They could have used the Zipp VumaQuad, which weighs about the same as the Lightning, but costs $900 each. Look for others to get Dura Ace, or Campy Record.
Come to think of it, I think that since you have a Lightning, which can accommodate a triple and comes in a tandem version, you haven't burned your triple bridges, and if at some point you wanted to switch to a conventional left-side sync, triple arrangement, you could with the substitution of a few parts. Best of both worlds.