uspspro

I have no pics yet.

But I thought I would post up the details of our new setup.

First here is the old setup:

Levers: Campagnolo Chorus pre-2009 10 speed
Crankset: Davinci billet aluminum 53/42/28
RD: Campagnolo Comp Triple with Shiftmate
FD: Campagnolo Comp Triple
Cassette: SRAM XX 11-32 10 speed


So based on four primary drivers, I decided to test a new set of components on our Calfee.

1) A friend of mine, who is as much of a cycling "gear head" as me, ranted and raved about the excellent front shifting with the new Ultegra 6703 triple.

2) I heard from a couple of "tandem folks" that the 6703 levers had more brake cable pull. Allowing for a better setup for the Avid rear disc (less adjusting on long mountainous rides, and you can set the pads further apart... no rubbing).

3) I love the shape of new-style (09+) Campy levers (which I have on my half-bike), and the SRAM levers. The new Ultegra levers are similar to that shape: More substantial than the pre-09 Campy, with a nice flat section.

4) I want to eliminate the shiftmate.. Now I know that Tandem Geek claims that the Campy/Shimano hybrid setup works without one, but theoretically for optimal shifting:
-The shifter indexing should match up with the cassette
-The pull ratio of the RD should correspond to the levers

So new setup is as follows:

Levers: Shimano Ultegra 6703 10 speed
Crankset: Davinci billet aluminum 53/39/28 -- Same cranks, but I switched to a 39t middle ring for compatibility with new FD (would not work properly with the 42t)
RD: Shimano Deore XT 9-speed "Shadow" M772-SGS (long cage) -- Using XT RD for better handling of wide gear ranges. This 9-speed model has the same pull ratio as the road 10-speed RDs
FD: Shimano Ultegra 6703
Cassette: SRAM XX 11-32 10 speed -- same as before

So far, it's working pretty well. We only got one (65 mile) ride on the new gear so far. The only issue is the FD clamp. I was using a Campy clamp before, because the FSA "tandem" model supplied by Calfee put the Campy FD outboard way too far (unable to engage inner ring). Well with this Shimano 6703 FD, the FSA clamp still puts the FD outboard too far, but the Campy clamp is borderline too far inboard. With the limit screw all the way out, the FD can be in the correct position to ride in the 53x11, but just barely, so the shifting to the big ring is not very quick. It looks like the Shimano clamp has a little more offset, and I just need another 1mm or so. So I will try the Shimano FD clamp. Also, my 53t ring is pinned for a 42t middle ring, so it might be worth getting a new 53t that is for a 39t middle.

So now the good stuff!
- I am really liking the new hoods!
- The shifting under load is awesome, even while powering up a climb!
- The increased brake cable pull is certainly nice.

Anyway... these are just my initial thoughts, I though I would share.

Chris_W

Interesting report. If you want to go back to using the 42 tooth ring then just use a Shimano 105 triple front derailleur; it will work much better than the Ultegra because it's designed for an 11-tooth difference between the large and small rings.

TandemGeek

Will be interested to hear how it all works long term. I spent about 45 minutes on the phone with one of my tandem dealer friends and we talked about his experience with the newer Shimano Shadow components. He seemed to feel that they've sacrificed some of the previous robustness of the components for weight savings and that the shifting wasn't as reliable as it had been. Again, that's a data point of n=1, so I look forward to hearing how it all works as the miles stack-up. I suspect that rider technique may have more influence on the quality of the shifting performance than simply the hardware, so that's the wild card and in your case I don't think you have any technique issues, i.e., routinely getting slogged down to 60 rpms before getting around to shifting into a shorter gear, etc. IMHO and experience, tandem drive trains always perform better when higher cadences and better, more timely gear changes are used in combination.

To my early comments on hybrid drive trains, I would agree that perfectly matched, integrated groups will typically shift more accurately on a more consistent basis than any of the other hybrid set-ups. All of the hybrid set-ups... those with or without an adapter require a lot of careful attention to chain width (narrower is better), set-up, and periodic adjustment to account for cable stretch / housing compression to stay dialed-in given that you're playing around with less than .5mm of margin in the derailleur movement, shifter throw and/or cassette alignment.

The Shiftmates seem to work fairly well, but for me they've always needed to have the pulley orientation re-calibrated before each ride. Removal of the rear wheel or anthing else that would allow the derailleur cable to go slack would typically invite the pulley to rotate out of alignment. Teflon coated or "slick wire" derailleur cables also seem to invite a little 'progression' over multiple shifts that rotate the pulley out of alignment, noting the more often you run the chain up and down the full length of your cassette, the quicker it would go out alignment, i.e., those of us who ride in hilly areas would notice it more than folks who don't find themselves constantly shifting to adjust for significant changes in terrain.

The latter is why the 'sans-Shiftmate' hybrid set-up was sometimes preferrable, as it was less prone to shifting performance degradation... but was also a bit more demanding in terms of the previously mentioned need to be very attentive to chain width (noting different brands and models of 9 and 10 speed chains have different widths), derailleur cable and housing installation, and derailleur adjustments.

We're still evaluating our 10 speed Campy lever / SRAM X.0 RD / Shimano cassette hybrid drive train with the Shiftmate Straight 5S. So far, it's been very crisp but last week started to get a little balky between the 11t & 12t rear cogs. I need to check the pully alignment to see if it may have walked over the past few hundred miles since it was installed. But, other than that, it's been by far the best shifting performance I've had in a long time and I attritute that to SRAM's unique cable stop arrangement with its shorter and more direct cable routing.

PMK

TG, it does have the look of fast or color of money also. Seriously, it does look good, and it's nice to see something a bit outside the conventional Silver or Black. Hope the gear changes remain confident so it will be on there a while.

PK

ReedCycle

We have had our Calfee for one year, with a similar set-up:
Levers: Ultegra 6703
Crankset: DaVinci with FSA 53/39/26 chainrings
FD: Ultegra 6703 with FSA clamp
RD/Cassette: Started with Ultegra 6703 medium cage with IRD 11-32. Switched in February to XT M761 SGS with SRAM 12-36.
Brakes: DA 7900 front and rear

Front shifting has been excellent. Rear shifting was fair with the Ultegra RD and IRD cassette. Switching to the XT M-761 RD and SRAM cassette tremendously improved the rear shifting. Mel at Tandems East recommended the M761 SGS RD over the 9 speed Shadow models. Overall, a noticeable improvement over the Ultegra 9-speed drivetrain that we had on our Co-Motion.

Shifts beautifully, rides beautifully, looks beautiful.

uspspro

Cool setup!

TandemGeek

Thanks Paul. For those who don't know what PMK's referring to, SRAM offered the X.0 components in a range of colors and may still do so, but I don't think it's as pronounced as it was in 2009. I had some photos on our blog, but for those who are curious that haven't seen the "new" set-up, I've linked to one of the photos on the blog. I blame ChiChi for sewing the seeds of drive train color-coordination... just when I thought I'd vanquished myself of vanity.

rdtompki

TG,
What sort of metal ferrules are you using with your Shiftmate. I just switched over from Shimano to SRAM RD while my right Ergo was getting repaired and the ferrules I have aren't tight enough to avoid a good deal of slop thus causing some shifting problems. I may need to temporarily switch back to the Deore RD until I get the SRAM thing figured out.

TandemGeek

Campy housing with Campy ferrules... probably old stuff that I pulled out of a canister full of miscellaneous ferrules.

rdtompki

I switched back to my Shimano RD and the shifting (with Shiftmate seems to work fine. Something going on with the SRAM X9 10 spd. that I don't understand; the effort to shift with the SRAM RD was considerably higher. I'm positive I had the Shiftmate mounted correctly. Go figure?

TandemGeek

Might want to double check the cut-sheet on the Shiftmate Straight S5 to make sure the cable coming from your shifters went on to the small groove and crossed over to the large going out to the derailleur... and that the flat spot was sitting at 6 O'Clock when the chain was on the smallest rear cog.

https://jtekengineering.com/Images/Sh...structions.pdf

Other than that, there's not much else that can be mis-adjusted if your Shimano RD is working fine, i.e., nothing amiss elsewhere. Not that it would work in practice, but just to isolate the issue, did you bench test the SRAM RD without the Shiftmate to see if shifting effort was still high?

rdtompki

I triple-checked the installation of the Shiftmate, but did not bench test the SRAM RD. I'm going to look at the RD more closely regarding spring tension, but setting that aside I've only 6" or so between the frame cable stop and the RD cable stop and it's not a straight shot. So with the ferrules undersized compared to the Shiftmate features I don't have good alignment of the cable with the Shiftmate. And Jagwire cable is pretty stiff. I can see the angle between the Shiftmate and ferrule change as the cable tension is increasing which doesn't seem like a good thing.

Always good to remind folks of the small pulley/big pulley sequence; when I first installed the Shimano configuration I didn't read the directions too closely and neglected to reverse the pulley

waynesulak

I find I have to adjust our shiftmate cable about every 200 miles. It is a pain but I love the shape of Campy 10 shifters and the front shifting is great.

I have used both Campy and Shimano shifter and FDs and for us we can shift under much higher load with Campy shifters than with a Shimano shifter. This is with either FD installed. I have not tried SRAM shifters since they do not support a triple. Of course we try not to front shift under much load but sometimes it happens.....

bikeriderdave

I have considered changing from 6603 to 6703 levers on our dual-disc PeriScope triple, thinking -- as you did -- that increased cable pull should make it easier to keep the discs silent, even after hard application and temporary disc warp. But I'm concerned that the TINSTAAFL principle will prevail, and that extra pad travel will cost more of the current setup's excellent power and modulation than I would like. Or that added pad travel won't make enough difference, given the narrow clearances of the calipers themselves. New 6703 levers aren't cheap, after all, and we're still saving for #2 stoker's higher education.

Now that a few weeks have passed, are your first impressions still valid? Did greater brake cable pull decrease brake rub as you expected? Have you noticed any reduction in apparent braking power or modulation?

Thanks for sharing,
Dave

DoubleDiamonDog

I am too lazy to look up the actual part numbers but the compenents were new four summers ago when we bought our tandem with all Ultergra Brifters, FD and RD and 52-39-30 chainrings and 12-27 cassette and Davinci cranks. 10 spd, superb shifting front and rear and no shiftmate to tweak. I asked our builder about the IRD cassette because so many tandems were being sold with them and I thought that might be the way to go but he talked me out of it. He said that they had tested them and he did not like the way the shifted. As we found out later, a number of people reported having trouble with them. At that time he said if we wanted a bigger cog in the back we should go with the XTR RD and 9 speed cassette and actually set the bike up that way originally but I asked him to swap out and use the 12-27 and Ultegra RD. No regrets to this point but as the years go by we may need a bigger cog back there.