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Performance 28 mm tires

Old 06-11-13, 11:57 PM
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Performance 28 mm tires

I have 230 gram 25 mm Continental GP4000S tires on our tandem. But, I am seeing where 90% of pro riders in the Giro use 25 mm tires. I figure if a 140 lb. pro rider is most efficient on a 25 mm tire, this 290 lb. tandem team could stand to use a wider tire.

But the GP4000S doesn't come in 28 mm. I guess the obvious move is to the 260 gram Conti GP4 Seasons.

I looked at Michelin, but I don't see anything. The least bad 28 mm appears to be the cheapie 340 gram Dynamic Sport. What happened to the Krylion? That was a nice tire, and would have been a natural for the 28 mm.

There is the 235 gram Ultremo ZX with V-Guard, which appears to be Schwalbe's equivalent to the GP4000S, only it comes in 28 mm. Interesting that it in 28 mm it is only 5 grams heavier than the 25 mm GP4000S. I wonder how good that V-Guard flat protection is?

Another candidate is the Specialized Roubaix Pro, which is 700 x 25/28; psi 115-125; approx. weight 300g. What is 25/28? 26.5 mm?

Are there any other performance 28 mm tires we should consider?
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Old 06-12-13, 04:29 AM
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25/28 mm on Specialized tires means that it has a tread that is the width of a 25mm tire (and so should be as efficient as that) but has a volume like that of a 28mm tire (so should be as comfortable as that); they're trying to say that you can have the best of both worlds in one tire, but I'm not so sure that it achieves what they say.

The Michelin Krylion got absorbed into their Pro 4 Race line when they decided to make several different versions of it. So the new Krylion is called the Pro 4 Race Endurance, but unfortunately they only make 23 and 25 mm versions. I certainly wouldn't put the cheap Dynamic Sport model on a tandem.

I would definitely choose the Continental GP 4-season over the Ultremo for robustness.
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Old 06-12-13, 04:39 AM
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Gave up on 'performance' a while back when we lad a laceration on a new tire @ 40+ in a sweeping turn.
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Old 06-12-13, 05:15 AM
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I like your thinking! To carry that thought just a little 2mm further the fastest rolling (and most comfortable) wider 700C tire I have found is the 30mm Grand Boise Cerf. Very supple thin casing and tread so make your own judgement as to suitability at your desired pressure. I measured it to be 3 mm tread thick with calipers which is the same as I measured a Pro Race 3.

Volume of 25mm tire is 12.5 *12.5*3.14 = 490.6 volume. To scale up to tandem 30mm tire 15*15*3.14 = 706.5 volume

I actually gave up using it on our tandem because we need a more robust tire but I use it on my single. On good roads this it is a tandem option. Looks may be a problem since it has old school natural color side walls. Note The web site calls it a 32mm tire because that is what they measured it as on wide rims. The tire is labeled 30mm. Pinch flats will be a thing of the past.

http://www.compasscycle.com/tires_gb_700_32.html
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Old 06-12-13, 06:10 AM
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I'm not sure you can extrapolate from single racers to tandems.

Part of the reason they're going to 25mm tubulars is that they have a good aerodynamic profile with wider rims, such as Zipp firecrests.

28mm tire on a convential (i.e. narrower rim) is going to have a significant aerodynamic disadvantage that you're not going to make back in reduced rolling resistance.

Hence if the goal is performance, you're ok with the ride quality, and you're not pinch flatting, I'd stay with 25mm.
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Old 06-12-13, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Ritterview View Post
Are there any other performance 28 mm tires we should consider?
One's that will be compatible with any dimensional limits of your fork, rear stays and brakes...???

Not all "performance" forks, frames and brakes produced over the last 10-15 years will accommodate larger volume tires. Make sure you will be able to maintain adequate clearance for normal deflection and debris that can attach itself to tire tread (e.g., fresh asphalt, hot tar or other things that collect small stones) and need to be able to pass between the tire and fork bridge and any caliper arms.
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Old 06-12-13, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by waynesulak View Post
I like your thinking! To carry that thought just a little 2mm further the fastest rolling (and most comfortable) wider 700C tire I have found is the 30mm Grand Boise Cerf. Very supple thin casing and tread so make your own judgement as to suitability at your desired pressure. I measured it to be 3 mm tread thick with calipers which is the same as I measured a Pro Race 3.

Volume of 25mm tire is 12.5 *12.5*3.14 = 490.6 volume. To scale up to tandem 30mm tire 15*15*3.14 = 706.5 volume

I actually gave up using it on our tandem because we need a more robust tire but I use it on my single. On good roads this it is a tandem option. Looks may be a problem since it has old school natural color side walls. Note The web site calls it a 32mm tire because that is what they measured it as on wide rims. The tire is labeled 30mm. Pinch flats will be a thing of the past.

http://www.compasscycle.com/tires_gb_700_32.html
Actually Wayne, the tire you referenced and linked to is the Grand Bois Cypres. When mounted to my Velocity Synergy rims (those are what I'm using on my 1950 Norman Rapide) they measure 31mm. They are a wonderful tire.
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Old 06-12-13, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Ritterview View Post
I have 230 gram 25 mm Continental GP4000S tires on our tandem. But, I am seeing where 90% of pro riders in the Giro use 25 mm tires. I figure if a 140 lb. pro rider is most efficient on a 25 mm tire...
Alright.. I'm confused.
Why would a wider tire be more efficient? More weight and certainly more wind resistant. What's the Giro? I could understand maybe going to a wider tire is the roads are broken/crappy and you want more rubber on the road. Am I missing something?
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Old 06-12-13, 07:28 AM
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I would consider the Grand Bois Cerf. Since you're a weight weenie, you'll be happy to know that each tire weighs only 248 grams. That is the tire that I'm most likely going to use for my 1977 JT tandem which I'm nearly finished with.

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Old 06-12-13, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Pic View Post
Alright.. I'm confused.
Why would a wider tire be more efficient? More weight and certainly more wind resistant. What's the Giro? I could understand maybe going to a wider tire is the roads are broken/crappy and you want more rubber on the road. Am I missing something?
As to rolling resistance, there's an optimal amount of tire deflection for minimum rolling resistence. Thus depending on rider weight and tire pressure, wider can have lower rolling resistence.

As to aerodynamics, you're correct that generally wider = higher wind resistence. However, there is also the issue of how the tire interfaces with the rim. With the new generation of very wide deepsectioned rims, like Zipp Firecrests, racers are finding that there is little or no aerodynamic penalty to run a 25mm tire on the wider rims.

My point above, though is that you can't just extrapolate out, based on team weight alone, because the aerodynamics of a 28mm tire on a typical tandem rim, are going to be different than a 25mm tubular on a Zipp firecrest rim.

Zipp firecrest rims have a maximum width of 27mm. Thus, you can see that a 25mm tire might not add drag, compared to a 23mm tire.

By contrast, a Rolf tandem rim is narrower than 23mm, so going to 28mm is likely to add drag.

All that said, you can't make a definite conclusion on any wheel/tire combo, without a wind tunnel test, because what's intuitive, is not always true in aerodynamics.
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Old 06-12-13, 08:53 AM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
I'm not sure you can extrapolate from single racers to tandems.

Part of the reason they're going to 25mm tubulars is that they have a good aerodynamic profile with wider rims, such as Zipp firecrests.

28mm tire on a convential (i.e. narrower rim) is going to have a significant aerodynamic disadvantage that you're not going to make back in reduced rolling resistance.

Hence if the goal is performance, you're ok with the ride quality, and you're not pinch flatting, I'd stay with 25mm.
I agree the wider 30mm tire will be less aero. There are always tradeoffs. Hills vs wind, group vs time trial. I suggest casting a wide net and trying a lot of different tires and see what you think works. I would only eliminate tires that others (that have personally used the tires) mention are slow. I would not assume they are slow because they are wide.

I do believe that Firecrest was optimized for 21-23mm tires.

Quote from Zipp FAQ:


Tire choice depends highly on user preference and conditions. To summarize, a 21mm has superior aerodynamics with our rims; a 23mm is larger and subsequently has better ride quality and rim protection, but at a slight aero penalty. Here are some questions you can ask that will help guide your decision:


Triathlon/Time trial? In general – 21mm.
Road racing? In general – 23mm.
Training and/or daily riding? 23mm+

Dry? 21mm at normal recommended pressure.
Wet? 23mm at a slightly lower pressure.

Smooth roads? 21mm at normal recommended pressure.
Rough roads? 23mm at a slightly lower pressure.

User prefers slight aero benefit of 21's at the expense of a little ride comfort, rim protection, and rolling resistance? Use 21mm.
User prefers slightly better ride comfort, rim protection, and rolling resistance of 23's at the expense of a little aero? Use 23mm.

Rider weighs less? 21mm.
Rider weighs more? 23mm.
Wider tires faster - Velonews
http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/...-faster_209888

Last edited by waynesulak; 06-12-13 at 08:57 AM.
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Old 06-12-13, 09:13 AM
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Merlin nailed the discussion concerning the Pro trend of matching rim & tire widths for aerodynamics.

Also, as discussed in the "19mm rim" thread, using tires that are much wider than the outer rim width will increase the amount of tire "flop" while cornering. So, if you are looking for performance (ie: high speed) cornering, going with a wider tire on a narrow rim is not the best setup.

IMO, you would be better off first looking at the rim widths and profiles the pros are using (med-tall & wide ie: >= 21mm), then match an appropriate tire.

Last edited by twocicle; 06-12-13 at 04:34 PM.
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Old 06-12-13, 09:34 AM
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Some interesting data from Zipp engineer posted to weightweenies:
The 404 and 808 (either clincher or tubular) are fastest (aerodynamically speaking) with 21mm tires, though design centered on 23mm tires. The 303 (either version) is still fastest with the narrow tires but design focused on minimizing aero penalties with tires up to 27/28mm wide. Again, like most things in aerodynamics, this isn't a hard and fast rule as it's still tire model-dependent. One company's 23mm tire performs significantly better on each of these wheels than their 22mm tire, for example.

Lastly, I threw together a quick plot of 23mm and 23mm data for 303 and 404 carbon clinchers. Sorry it's not super polished but again it's from our internal database.


Full thread at:

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=97169&start=30




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Old 06-12-13, 10:33 AM
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We tried some 25 mm Continental GP4000S tires and thought they were very harsh. Then we tried some 28mm Continental Gatorskins and thought they were better. Then we tried some 28mm Schwalbe Ultremo ZX tires. I'm not exaggerating when I write that within 50 feet we both said "Wow... these are nice!"

The Schwalbes are so smooth that they transformed the ride quality of our Cannondale RT1000. It feels like they roll fast, too.

A couple of other tandem teams we know use them and really like them.

We ride on mostly smooth, clean roads, but sometimes I don't notice the occasional broken glass or small pothole. So far (knocking furiously on wood) we have not had a flat in about 200 miles.

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Old 06-12-13, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by mwandaw View Post
We tried some 25 mm Continental GP4000S tires and thought they were very harsh. Then we tried some 28mm Continental Gatorskins and thought they were better. Then we tried some 28mm Schwalbe Ultremo ZX tires. I'm not exaggerating when I write that within 50 feet we both said "Wow... these are nice!"

The Schwalbes are so smooth that they transformed the ride quality of our Cannondale RT1000. It feels like they roll fast, too.

A couple of other tandem teams we know use them and really like them.

We ride on mostly smooth, clean roads, but sometimes I don't notice the occasional broken glass or small pothole. So far (knocking furiously on wood) we have not had a flat in about 200 miles.
Same experience here.
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Old 06-12-13, 01:11 PM
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I like the 28mm Ultremo ZX but they will not clear the crown of our Enve 2.0 fork.
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Old 06-12-13, 02:13 PM
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Luckily forks can be replaced fairly easily and at a reasonable cost. Those with tandem frames that will not accept tires wider than 25mm have limited their options.
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Old 06-12-13, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Dean V View Post
I like the 28mm Ultremo ZX but they will not clear the crown of our Enve 2.0 fork.
Since I too have an ENVE 2.0 fork, I had looked into this. ENVE specs the 28 mm tire as the maximum tire width.

Other ENVE 2.0 fork users have successfully used 28 mm tires. Discussed here at Velo News.


The big Challenge tire [measured at 29 mm] barely fit inside the Enve fork on my test bike. It's important to set up the brakes using the quick release and the barrel adjuster so you can loosen both to get the wheel off.


Also here, and with an Ultremo:


This image is of a 28 ultremo r.1 on velocity a23 wheel. A few mm all around.

This poster reports fitting an Ultremo 28 mm ZX.

I have a wheelset with Velocity A23 (wide) rims on the bike and Schwalbe Ultremo ZX, 700x28 mounted which measures an actual 31MM across. There's 3MM on each side and about 5MM between the top of the tire and the bottom of the fork.
So, if your Ultremo 28 mm doesn't fit, it is an outlier.
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Old 06-12-13, 04:44 PM
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For a tour in Germany this fall I plan to run 28mm Conti 4Seasons on "skinny rim" (18.5mm) Spinergy wheels and with our Enve 2.0 fork. Currently we are running the same tire in 25mm has plenty of clearance so I don't see a problem fitting the 28mm either. Calfee advertises their standard frame setup as accepting a 28mm tire, so we'll see.

That is, unless I find a wider (~23mm) rim choice. I am confident that a 23mm rim w/25mm tire would be a perfect allround combo for us.

---

Since I posted just after Ritter's examples above, I have just one point to make about the last one, re:Ultremo 28mm ZX... he has a 23mm rim which will pull down the tire height vs a ~19mm rim which would make the tire profile taller.

Last edited by twocicle; 06-12-13 at 04:50 PM.
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Old 06-12-13, 05:20 PM
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I will be trying those Challenge Parigi Roubaix next, but still have a ways to go on this set of GP4000 25mm.
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Old 06-12-13, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by twocicle View Post
For a tour in Germany this fall I plan to run 28mm Conti 4Seasons on "skinny rim" (18.5mm) Spinergy wheels and with our Enve 2.0 fork. Currently we are running the same tire in 25mm has plenty of clearance so I don't see a problem fitting the 28mm either. Calfee advertises their standard frame setup as accepting a 28mm tire, so we'll see.

That is, unless I find a wider (~23mm) rim choice. I am confident that a 23mm rim w/25mm tire would be a perfect allround combo for us.

---

Since I posted just after Ritter's examples above, I have just one point to make about the last one, re:Ultremo 28mm ZX... he has a 23mm rim which will pull down the tire height vs a ~19mm rim which would make the tire profile taller.
Don't be so sure without trying it first. I also normally run 25mm Conti 4 seasons and on deep v rims on our standard Calfee with an alpha q fork. They have lots of clearance however the 28 work but just barely. Last year before a trip to Turkey which we were appropriately warned of rough roads I mounted a set of new 28 and merely pumped them them up to about 80psi and looked for defects in the tires before packing the bike. Fast forward to Turkey and pumped them to the usual 120 and what a difference as I only have about 1mm on the unused rear brake bridge and about the same on the fork in the vertical dimension. We rode them fine that way but we did get paint rub on the fork and bridge from stuff that stuck to the tire. Obviously a wider rim will offer more clearance in the vertical plane.
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Old 06-12-13, 07:01 PM
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I am inclined to think it is the fork rather than the tyre which is causing the lack of clearance.
Just did some measuring.
28mm Ultremo ZX on 19mm Mavic rim at 100psi was 29mm wide.
28mm Ultremo ZX on 23mm Hed Belgium rim at 100psi was 30mm wide and 0.8mm lower in profile.

Last edited by Dean V; 06-12-13 at 07:16 PM.
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Old 06-12-13, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by uspspro View Post
I will be trying those Challenge Parigi Roubaix next, but still have a ways to go on this set of GP4000 25mm.
Looking forward to your report on those tires.
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Old 06-12-13, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Ritterview View Post
Since I too have an ENVE 2.0 fork, I had looked into this. ENVE specs the 28 mm tire as the maximum tire width.

Other ENVE 2.0 fork users have successfully used 28 mm tires. Discussed here at Velo News.


The big Challenge tire [measured at 29 mm] barely fit inside the Enve fork on my test bike. It's important to set up the brakes using the quick release and the barrel adjuster so you can loosen both to get the wheel off.
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I have run close clearances but having given it thought over the years, I try to avoid that tight all around the tire on the front for fear of something wedging between tire and fork resulting in front wheel skid at speed.

Last edited by waynesulak; 06-12-13 at 08:20 PM.
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Old 06-12-13, 09:44 PM
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Ritterview
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Originally Posted by twocicle View Post
Merlin nailed the discussion concerning the Pro trend of matching rim & tire widths for aerodynamics.

Also, as discussed in the "19mm rim" thread, using tires that are much wider than the outer rim width will increase the amount of tire "flop" while cornering. So, if you are looking for performance (ie: high speed) cornering, going with a wider tire on a narrow rim is not the best setup.

IMO, you would be better off first looking at the rim widths and profiles the pros are using (med-tall & wide ie: >= 21mm), then match an appropriate tire.
Well, my ENVE 65 clinchers have a rim width of 22 mm, so I think they are probably okay. Better might be the more aerodynamic ENVE SES 6.7, which has a rim width of 26/24 mm front/rear, and thus is more in keeping with wider rim widths that populate the Giro. Unfortunately, the SES's (molded) spoke holes are limited to 20/24 front/rear (vs. 28 on the 65), which are too few for a tandem.
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