brons2

I had this come up yesterday about 3/4ths through a very hilly 30 mile ride that involved several grind-em-out hills.

Frankly, I enjoy riding my single bike more, alone, or with friends that can ride faster. But I like riding with my wife also, I just accept the fact that we're not going to be going as far or as fast. When we do ride together, I enjoy the tandem more because I know she's right behind me. When we ride together but on our single bikes it's not challenging enough for me. I have to constantly wait up for her. When we're on the tandem it's a lot of work pulling the two of us up the hills (and the 50lb bike with not a ton of lateral stability), so I get plenty of a workout.

Maybe some of this is due to her complaining about her bum being sore? I read the other thread about women's saddles.

But how do you other tandems handle these issues?

Maybe I just need to level up with her that i find the rides we do together on our single bikes, well, boring. But I see that going over like a ton of bricks on my head. I think the best way to start off addressing this issue is with a fancy new saddle for her.

Team Fab

For off road riding I changed to a fully rigid single speed. Sure made it harder for me to keep up especially on the rough trails, but i got stronger for racing and my bike handling got better. Maybe there is something you can do on the road. Fixie with ballon tires and fenders? Get her a better bike?

Chris_W

Does she go for rides on her own bike alone much? If not, if she only ever rides when you ride together, then she may just be missing the feeling of riding her own bike. Encouraging her to get out on her own once in a while may help her motivation to ride the tandem when you're riding together.

waynesulak

I gather she enjoys riding her single more. Everyone is different and I have never run into that one. My wife likes going faster on the tandem than slower on the. Her single is not just gathering dust and I wish she would ride is occasionally.

We do have discussions about how long to ride the tandem with her often wanting a shorter or less hilly route.

Saddle issues are there for everyone and I can only suggest to keep trying saddles. As I assume you already know, standing up hills as often as possible before any saddle pain helps a lot to prevent saddle issues. It is easy to forget on the tandem and become glued in the saddle. Pedaling hard also takes weight off the rear end. There I suppose you have two problems working together.

Possibly she feels obligated to ride harder on the tandem and likes easier rides on her single where she can regulate her effort?

If she does not want to work hard she is in a group that includes the vast majority of the sane poplulation and I am not sure of the best approach. My stoker feels that way sometimes and someone to chase usually helps get her motivated but I know that does not work for most people....

Good luck.

brons2

This is another thing.
It's not that she doesn't want to work hard, but she says she feels disconnected at the high cadence that I prefer. When I slow down the cadence it seems like I get more push from the back. But I don't really care for it, and I don't think my knees do either.

I guess I can chalk off the preference for masher cadence to her relative inexperience on road bikes, I suppose.

I'm not giving up yet. Wish me luck.

Team Fab

How about independant pedaling such as Devinci?

DubT

It takes more than luck!

Give us some details.

How long have you been riding tandem, how far do you try to go on each ride, have you had a bike fit, have you discussed cadence, have you asked her how far and how fast she wants to go? It is all about COMMUNICATION. We headed out yesterday and at the 10 mile mark, stoker said that she was not feeling it and was ready to head home, we IMMEDIATELY headed home. I then rode another 20 miles on my single. Today we rode 25 miles and we had a 20 MPH wind to deal with, stoker was fine.

try to find a cadence that she is happy with, go the distance that she wants to go, make sure that she is comfortable, ask her where she wants to go. Love that lady and appreciate the fact that she is willing to get out and ride with you. We tandem teams are a major minority, we need to take super great care of our stoker wives. (Significant others).

My wife now has sever miles and hours on her new John Cobb $180 saddle and she gives it two thumbs, 0 pressure on her soft tissue and after a 1 degree tilt change her sit bone area is also HAPPY, HAPPY, HAPPY. She is happy and so am i.

Don't give up but have an honest talk and find out what her expectations are.

We have been married for almost 51 years and learning to communicate is still a learning process!

brons2

I don't have that kind of money just sitting around. And it's only indpendent to the point of pedaling or not. There's not different cadences available. Unless something has changed in the last few years.

I have rode many miles on brevets with a couple on a titanium DaVinci. I now have greater appreciation for them. They are excellent tandem riders.

ironhanglider

A few random thoughts:

Are her feet actually connected? If not it can be really disconcerting if you feel like you have to chase the pedals just to keep your feet on.

Shorter cranks are easier to turn faster. Many teams have longer cranks at the front and shorter at the rear for the same reason. The cadence is the same for both, but feels different.

Get a computer with a cadence sensor mount it on the stoker bars.

Let her feel that she can control the gear selection. If she asks for the next gear she should get it.

Harden up, your knees are not going to blow apart due to pedalling a bit slower for a few short rides on a tandem. You can ride your single bike at whatever speed you like.

Convert her single bike to a fixie (not single speed).

Find a way to make it enjoyable for her, otherwise it'll just become a long single bike with a spare seat.


Cheers,

Cameron

brons2

Been riding tandem only a couple of months. We have gone between 15-30 miles on each ride. We have not had a bike fit, but I would like to. I have tried to tell her constantly that her cadence should be between 75 and 95, even going so far to buy a cadence meter for her single bike. As for how far I think 20-30 miles is usually achievable.

I'm just trying to listen to my knees to know when they're not feeling it
Now I have to listen to a whole other person???

I am definitely appreciative of the fact that she likes to ride bikes. Very much so.

I don't think she'll go for a saddle if she knows it cost $180. She thought a $300 Bikes Direct bike was really expensive when she was starting off. I don't want to have to lie by omission and be deceptive about the cost of bike bits. I just would like to get her used to the notion that several hundred dollars is not too much to spend to have fun with your spouse. And when that fun involves riding bikes the money just has to be spent sometimes.

I agree with you about communication being a lifelong process. We have a book full of marriage advice all from couples who have been married longer than 50 years. Pretty cool stuff.

brons2

Yes, her feet are connected, we are using the stock pedals and toeclips. I have talked to her some about going clipless in the back. I have several sets for Shimano SPD (MTB type) just sitting around as I now ride longer rides with flat pedals to avoid hotfoot. She thinks it will be too scary to have clipless pedals but I am trying to reassure her that it will be easy.

I have not measured the cranks but I will do so soon. It has the stock crankset on it. Most of the effort that has gone into the drivetrain so far has been modernization. New wheel on Shimano HF08 hubs, HG61 12-36 cassette, M591 derailer, new chain, new chainrings on the drive cranks. Next effort was on my fit issues, new 48CM handlebars, brifters, stem extender, longer seatpost. It's clear I need to focus on her fit issues now.

I would very much like to get a cadence meter and split it between the back and front, if that's possible.

I have no problem giving her the next gear if she wants it. I guess we just need to communicate it better.

Anyway, thanks for the input.

krobinson103

Two wireless computers of the same model
calibrated to one sensor would give you the dual cadence/speed display you want.

WheelsNT

The computers don't even have to be wireless -- we use two cateye astrale 8's. I spliced the wires and run them both off the same sensor. This really helped us, because then we could have a meaningful discussion about cadence. My preference was 100-120 and the stoker wanted no more than 90. So I began shifting every time we got to 90. This bred a lot of trust, because she could see on the display that I was keeping it to what we had agreed on. Over time, we raised the limit to 95, and then to 100. Now, we generally keep it below 100, but if we're trying to make it through a traffic light or merge into traffic or something, we can briefly pop it up to 115-120 without a problem. So the stoker has become much more comfortable with higher cadences over time. I'd say it took maybe a year or 15 months.

The stoker is giving up a lot of control to stoke. They need to be comfortable that you -- since you have control -- are going to control things in a way they're comfortable with. By keeping the cadence where they are happy ( and they can see the number on the display) you show your commitment to keeping them comfortable. If you can, start there-- I'd bet it will work out for you in the long run. If that means you go slow for a while because your knees can't handle pushing harder, that's ok. It's an investment in the future. If that's the case, you might want to pick routes with less climbing for a while until she gets more comfortable.

My stoker is reading over my shoulder, and she says,"it's all about trust."

Dean V

It will just take some patience and perseverance on both your parts. You will need to do some experimenting with saddles for her. You will need to drop your cadence for her and build it up over time. In the meanwhile due to the slower bike and cadence you will be tempted to try harder than you should just "to get this bus moving". You need to throttle back to avoid that as that will give your knees a hammering if they are vulnerable. Yes it can feel like going from a nimble sports car (single bike) to a tank (tandem) but you just need to accept it for what it is. Over time as your stoker gets fitter and you progress to a better bike things will improve.

B. Carfree

If your stoker wants a cadence below 75, that's going to be a challenge. My knees hurt just thinking about that low a cadence. It seems like she needs to work her way up to a higher cadence, but if she is having saddle issues, that's going to be tough to do. I suggest finding a shop that has demo saddles and trying out as many as it takes. Of course, as she gets stronger and is able to put more force into the pedals she will have fewer issues on the saddle, but that will take time and effort as well (weight training is not a bad idea, and not just for the cycling benefits).

In the mean time, maybe go out of phase so you aren't just overwhelming her effort/feedback. If you want to try something particularly odd, you can drop the size of your timing ring in front while leaving hers alone so that your cadence will be faster than hers at the cost of never being sure where her pedals are (tricky for cornering, that might work better with an independent coasting system where the stoker could deal with the pedal position on her own).

Or, just HTFU and learn to enjoy clubbing along at 70 rpm.

Rowan

Life is full of compromises. Did you get your own way all the time as a kid and as an adult, and throughout your marriage? Likely not, but if so: this is not about you!

If you want to ride with your wife, compromise. Put up with the comments, and if they seem like whining, find out why she is making them and FIX IT!

If it means changing your cadence, change it; negotiate with her to lift hers slightly. Believe it or not, there may be tushy issues involved in higher or lower cadences than what she is used to.

If you are grinding up a hill, STOP and have a rest. Not for you, but for her sake. The way you ride solo is not the way the pair of you ride on the tandem.

And if you are riding solos together, make concessions for her. Ride at the back, ride at the front, ride next to her, but don't get to the point where she feels alone and vulnerable.

And get a fit. And don't ride it as though you want to break every speed record in the book. Tandems don't necessarily go as fast as singles.

Personally, from the tone of the original post, I think your riding days with your wife are numbered. And it would be your fault, not hers.

Carbonfiberboy 

My understanding is that she is fine with the tandem, maybe prefers it to her single, but you enjoy your single more.

#1 thing is to get her butt comfortable. My stoker adores her Specialized Lithia. Maybe TMI, but she's an outie. They come in widths, so have her sit on the Ass-O-Meter at your LBS. Of course butt comfort also comes from riding consistently.

#2 thing is your commitment. I basically gave up riding my singles. When I need a bike fix, we both get a bike fix. I don't ride more than she does, therefore we are gravitating to the same fitness, though not the same power. Commitment makes a profound difference, as you know. I am very lucky to have a stoker who is interested in riding, being fit, and living forever. But riding together is so much fun, and really more interesting because more complicated than riding one's single.

#3 is how to progress. I ride my rollers at least once/week year-round. I do pedaling drills on them, mostly high cadence, but also one-legged and some intervals. Stoker has a cheapo dumpster-dived trainer, doesn't even have resistance, but it works fine for her. So once a week, we train together but separately and at our own speeds. It's nice to be able to talk to each other while doing this. Mostly we do high cadence drills, as she hates OLP. But she'll do that sometimes, too. By high cadence drills, I mean that we shift into low gears so that our HR stays in zone 2, and we pedal as fast as we can within that limitation, for 15 minutes or longer, up to 45 minutes continuously. I do 115-120. She now does almost 115, but she started hardly being able to hit 100. We can now accelerate comfortably uphill at 95.

I know exactly what you mean about the stoker power drop-off at higher cadence. So you can tell exactly where she's comfortable. Me, too. So what I do, is I push that a hair as much as I dare during every ride. That helped some, too, but not as much as the high cadence drills. We also do core work together, using Core Advantage. We also go to the gym together once a week and take a spin class, and then lift weights after, just using the Friel or Chapple Anatomical Adaptation phase, nothing heavy for at least the first year or two.

The other thing that we do that's been a huge help is that we have a Garmin 800. She has it on her bars, using a Bar Fly mount. I have the chest strap for it, so she sees my HR. She has a Polar watch and transmitter for her HR, though she could use an ANT+ setup - she just has always had a Polar. I also have an ANT+ bike computer that shows me my HR. I don't need to see hers and certainly don't want to. Anyway, she matches HR with me so we're working about the same. Most women have a slightly higher HR than men, so that means that most female stokers just starting out would have a sufficiently easier time of it and not get beaten up too badly on a ride. And therefore have fun, and want more.

With this system, there is some lag time at both ends of a hill or acceleration, but it evens out. We're both beat about the same at the end of a ride. If she's getting tired too fast, she just backs it off a few beats from me. Or if I'm more tired, she'll run a few beats ahead of me. This also makes it more obvious when one of us needs to eat or whatever, because our HRs start to diverge, even though our RPEs are the same, so we can talk about that and figure out how to fix it.

The main thing is to understand that this is a team sport. Only the team matters.

waynesulak

This is a touchy area of personal relationships that everyone has to find what works for them. Some good points have been made:

Communication is key is a very good point. Setting goals before the ride is important.

Shorter stoker cranks than captain cranks help a lot. We have 160 mm stoker cranks and 170mm captain cranks. If cadence is an issue why have someone who is shorter using almost the same size cranks?

One trick that helps is moving the cranks lightly out of phase. We have the stoker cranks one or two teeth ahead of the captain's cranks. She is a little slower over the top so this lets her feel some resistance before I can put any power into the stroke. I can't really tell the difference but she says it helps her keep up at higher cadences.

Some like to ride in groups so see what you can do to ride your tandem with groups that if possible include women. You might find the bicycle budget and the goals expanding.

Saddles - if one works it is priceless so keep trying. If price is a concern then two I would try are Rivet and Brooks. Rivet saddles lets you return them up to a year later for a full refund. Wallingford has a great return policy on Brooks saddles that gives you plenty of time to try it out.

Now the issue that does not seem to get raised. I have a slight problem with the assumption that the stoker is doing the captain some kind of favor riding the tandem. There are teams that have stokers that want to ride just like the captain. When we are going well, we are a team with two minds willing the bike forward pushing ourselves not one member asking the other into going harder or longer than they want to go. I am more goal oriented than my stoker so there is some communication needed about what we ride, but most days she wants to ride to get a good hard workout and appreciates my riding the tandem with her as much as I appreciate her riding with me. It is a win for both of us.

If the stoker is just doing it for the captain and not because she wants to ride the tandem then it seems to me that pushing through suffering toward difficult goals is not really part of a sustainable long term plan. The ride is what it is and just have a good time and enjoy the ride together without trying to make it into something it is not. Just the other day we passed two riders talking as they rode, coasting down every downhill and making pretty slow time. They were having a nice enjoyable ride but not getting much of a workout. Still like taking a stroll they were out enjoying the outdoors rather than posting things on the internet.

LuckySailor

I'm unclear here. You enjoy riding single more or she enjoys riding single more? Saddle issues are most of our problems its seems or fit issues second. If it's her, then see if she'd like to try a different saddle. 2gether time with your wife is so very important. When you're out on the bike it's just the 2 of you no distractions, its personal, almost intimate time really. I always say, "a happy wife is a happy life".

brons2

I'm sorry to be unclear. She commented on our last ride that she enjoyed riding her single bike more. Probably because her bum was real sore.

What I want, apparently isn't relevant

That being said, if we're going riding together I'd much rather take the tandem.

reburns

Perhaps it's the stoker being unclear...or maybe the captain needing to listen more actively. You need to understand exactly what prompted her comment. If it's something that you could change, like cadence or speed or whatever, you need to understand that and then make the effort to change whatever you can that's under your control. If it's the saddle or fit or some other aspect of the equipment, you need to work as a team to try some different solutions. That is, if tandeming with your wife is something you highly value.

Chris_W

If she's not feeling so connected when riding at higher cadences then try riding 90 degrees out of phase (OOP). My wife was really happy about the feeling of OOP as it gives more resistance while she is in the power phase of the pedal stroke.

diabloridr

It may not require 90 OOP.

I lead my beloved stoker by a single chain link to improve feel of our combined stroke.

Lots of discussion on this in past threads.

YMMV.

Team Fab

We found that when we were beginning on a tandem we stood up less and moved less on the saddles. Maybe she just needs to stand up on the pedals or get off and give her butt a break? Now it is a habit that we take bum breaks, standing while coasting, standing while climbing, stand while trying to track stand at lights. When you are on a single you move around alot more in the saddle.

DubT

I have some more questions.

1. how do your fitness levels compare.

2. How long does she like to ride solo

3. It is obvious that you are tall and you like to ride long distances

4. Is your stoker tall or short, light or heavy

5. How fast do you like to ride and what speed does she like to ride.

Maybe you are riding too far, maybe 10-15 mile rides would make her happy. Take a tandem ride and then ride solo. Then everyone is Happy, Happy, Happy.

If your bum is hurting then the ride is not any fun at all. We started out riding 5 miles and then 7 etc. Slow and easy, no climbing until she was ready, she will now ride 45 miles and hills no longer bother her. We did do a saddle upgrade recently that has helped even more, after our 18 mile ride yesterday she had "0" bum issues and "0" soft tissue issues and she is ready to ride again today when the roads dry up.

Take your time and make her comfortable, a happy stoker is a true JOY!

My average speed is 3 - 4 MPH faster on my single but I ride 95% of the time on the tandem. If i need a solo fix i ride the single after our tandem ride.

It works for us!