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Jogger Seriously Hurt on Katy Trail

Jogger Seriously Hurt on Katy Trail

Old 10-12-10, 06:15 AM
  #26  
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In the news article they say, "...was jogging on the trail when she turned into the path of a bicyclist." The radio news report reduced this to "...was struck and killed by a bicyclist."
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Old 10-12-10, 07:15 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by lotek View Post
This line disturbs me:
But some folks suggest a speed limit or a total ban on bicycles. (From the MSNBC article referenced above).
I can see a concerted effort to ban bikes on MUPs, I've already heard some people interviewed say
that bikes should not be allowed on the same trails as runners.
What the foot traffic does not realize is that it really is a bike trail. It was built with government transportation funding for bicycles. That is the only reason it exists. The amenities like benches, water fountains and lighting are paid by private entities. What many want to do now is strip the user group responsible for building the thing! Pretty stupid if you ask me.

The Katy Trail is also being extended to the northeast which will eventually more than double the length. Currently it is only 3.5 miles long. It is being built in phases. I believe with 3 phases to go, two are unfunded. If bikes are censured from using the trail then the Katy Trail should be defunded. If the runner community thinks it is so awesome and powerful, then let them come up with the money to build the thing. The cyclists are tired of carrying the water for everyone else and being treated like crap.

Angela Hunt, the city councilwoman for this part of town is very friendly towards cycling. She should be considered a friend in this issue.

The problem is that if the anti-cycling people get a speed limit imposed, then it will spread city wide. Ruining other paths needed for faster commuting.
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Old 10-12-10, 07:49 AM
  #28  
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A speed limit won't help, or wouldn't help in this situation.
Getting hit by a bike at 10mph is still going to knock someone over,
and it wasn't the impact that killed her, it was the blow to the head when
she fell.
Knowing the rules of the road so to speak, i.e. when someone announces 'on you left' you
realize they're passing you. One witness said that the same rider passed him just before the
accident and clearly warned him that he was passing, can't fault the cyclist for this.
Not wearing headphones/ear buds etc. or having them cranked up so loud you can't hear
approaching riders also played into this accident.
Personally except for the access trail from Hillcrest Ave to White rock I try to
avoid MUPs they are unfortunately an accident waiting to happen.

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Old 10-12-10, 09:07 AM
  #29  
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I ride paths for a good amount of my commute from Plano to Dallas, and they are great in the early morning, because no one is using them but commuters. I will never ride a path on a sunny afternoon, as I know it will be taken over by people not paying attention.
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Old 10-12-10, 09:18 AM
  #30  
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I've heard the same thing, that katy trail was mainly for cyclists commuting to downtown and it ties into dallas' master plan of reducing road congestion and parking issues as the city grows. I do wonder if more cyclists used the trail and outnumbered runners would all the articles then state runner runs into cyclist? Or would the runners start using their side of the trail, the soft trail?...but seriously what's next white rock having bans and speed limits? how about a limit on how many luke's locker or run on training group members can run side by side, these groups take over the entire white rock trail every time they go running.

some links about how dallas wants to transform into a cycling city:

http://dallascityhall.com/developmen...ike_links.html
http://www.dallascityhall.com/develo...bike_plan.html
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont....192f8244.html
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Old 10-12-10, 11:56 AM
  #31  
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have a feeling this is the future of katy trail...

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/innovat...ex.html?hpt=C2
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Old 10-12-10, 01:45 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by tcs View Post
The only two times I've ridden there, the majority of the pedestrians eschewed their exculsive track and were mixing it up with the bicycles on the shared path. I entertained some theories on why this would be, but nothing I came up with quite fit what I was observing. (The news story said the jogger who was killed was using the shared side of the path.)
Living just a block from Katy trail, I commute to work via bicycle and I also have run (frequently) on Katy. I found that it is FAR safer as a runner on the shared path. I avoided the pedestrian path as often as I could due to head phones, dogs, cats, squirrels, kids, strollers, groups walking hand in hand, etc. The problem out here does defy all logic, because there is no logic. People are selfish and don't consider 'others' when making their plans to do whatever it is they are doing on the trail. Or, in other words, they plug in and forget about everything.

I would be very curious to see how many people have been run into and just bumped or scraped up and it wasn't reported. I suspect pedestrian/cycle/skater crashes happens almost daily and by a weird chance of (avoidable and unfortunate) coincidences this woman was killed.

Originally Posted by JMallez View Post
.but seriously what's next white rock having bans and speed limits? how about a limit on how many luke's locker or run on training group members can run side by side, these groups take over the entire white rock trail every time they go running.
Having trained with Run-on, I know they teach their groups to share the road. They teach proper road etiquette, proper rules of the road and communicate very similar to what you'd expect from a group ride. For education reasons, you want their groups to be as large as possible. They teach their runners how to share and hold a line; they do far more good than the minor inconvenience of having to pass them on the trail causes.

I can't speak for Lukes or DRC group etiquette. While I am a DRC member, I have not trained or run with their groups. I did almost take out a group of DRC members on the road part of the WRL trail (east side) where cars, cyclists and runners all mix. They group just wandered out into the middle of the road where I really didn't have time to react. By some freak accident, no one was hit. I know the next week, the DRC groups were in 2x2 rows and very well organized and communicated very well. SOMEONE said something and I thank them for that!

As a cyclist. I am also a GDB member, Dorba Member and PACC member. All of these groups do teach their riders how to share. Again, 'clubs' aren't really the problem here but should likely be used as a tool for spreading the word to all groups.


To the guy on the yellow bike on Katy trail this morning. My apologies for yanking your ear bud out to correct you about improper passing on Katy. I would like to have off line (and civil) communication as to why I felt my actions were necessary. (and would like to hear yours)

My version before I get jumped:
Me on a large MTB with roaring tires, him on a road bike.
two pair of pedestrians.
two walking north, two walking south. One had a dog (though I don't recall which one, based on my lane position, I'd say north bound had a dog)

I announced on left to south bound people, they moved over a bit and waved. I slowed to(12-15mph) and began to pass.

At this point, a bicycle flies by me on my left. (between north bound walkers and myself on the center line)

I got frustrated, announced "on your right", didn't even get body language that he had passed that close. So, I assume he's ignoring me or plugged in. I speed up to find out. Roll up on him and still, he doesn't know I'm next to him. I reach over and pluck the left ear bud out and announce (Announce you're passing next time). After a short unpleasant exchange, I remind him a woman was killed by a bicycle last week and he should be more cautious. I continued my commute to work.


A bit extreme, yes. But I'm not sure what it's going to take to get people to pay attention to their own actions rather than blaming 'others'.
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Old 10-12-10, 11:33 PM
  #33  
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i just remember seeing a wall of runners coming at me while on my bike at white rock and me thinking what am i going to do...i've boycotted GDB because in my opinion they don't practice safe and legal riding techniques (rolling through stops, running reds, creeping halfway through reds...) and in my opinion illegal riding doesn't just break the law but sets back the entire cycling community, legislation, and fuels motorist anger, so instead i drive 45 minutes out of my way and ride by myself on a 20 mile road with a big shoulder and no stops...no more trails, no more joggers, and no more unsafe groups for me, one crash and i decided to have the inconvenience of safety...

commuters though have to work with what they're given so be careful!
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Old 10-13-10, 12:12 AM
  #34  
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imo, street laws should apply to trails. anyone on trail should be able to hear surroundings just as you would when you're driving. you should always be able to hear emergency vehicles even with your windows rolled up. turning/switching lanes? you should always look all directions before making a move just as you would when you're driving.
well hope the jogger has reached the better place by now.
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Old 10-13-10, 06:53 AM
  #35  
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Sorry you had a negative experience with these group rides. As a former board member, I know they do not teach these illegal activities and I've personally made announcements at the start of group rides on the importance of not blowing signs/lights ESPECIALLY when cars are present. I suppose if you ride in the city enough, stopping at signs/lights comes just as complacent on a bicycle as it does in a car; as does avoidance of hazards in the road. Have you tried off-road trail riding? I find it's far more therapeutic than riding alone on a shoulder. Hikers and cyclists both are quite friendly and one can find a single track trail pretty easily in the N. Texas area.

If you were riding at 4:30-7am around WRL on T, TH and Sunday, then it may have been a Run-On sponsored training run. If evening, it was DRC or another group. If you do encounter a group that doesn't yield, stop and talk to them, see who the coach is and who they work with. (be polite) and then report back to the store owners/managers.
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Old 10-13-10, 10:48 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by JMallez View Post
.i've boycotted GDB because in my opinion they don't practice safe and legal riding techniques (rolling through stops, running reds, creeping halfway through reds...) and in my opinion illegal riding doesn't just break the law but sets back the entire cycling community, legislation, and fuels motorist anger....
+1

they also pick and choose when, where and who gets to run the stop signs...i was on a superbowl sunday ride with gdb a few years ago...we had already blown through no less than 20 stop signs...well i somehow found myself at the front of the pack, so naturally i went through a stop sign....i was then yelled at (no exaggeration) for a few mins by the "ride leader" about the rules of the road and how it was a "stupid move" to do that....5 miles later, i had moved myself to the back of the pack, as the whole ride was blowing through stop signs in highland park (in sunday morning church traffic nonetheless). gotta love double standards! i'm in a gdb jersey, so i can do illegal ****!
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Old 10-13-10, 10:52 AM
  #37  
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Call it whatever you want, but in my opinion, a sidewalk is designed exactly for that...WALKING. I "take the lane" on the street (ride exactly in the middle)rather than hugging the shoulder, so MOST cars don't encroach on me...it's safer than any stupid sidewalk but you can never bee 100% immune from accidents. There was an excellent cycling awareness website that had some interesting facts about bicycling accidents...it said something like 85-90 % of cycling accidents happen at intersections, not on straightaways...I'll see if I can find the link....
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Old 10-16-10, 08:18 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Armenian View Post
There was an excellent cycling awareness website that had some interesting facts about bicycling accidents... it said something like 85-90 % of cycling accidents happen at intersections, not on straightaways...I 'll see if I can find the link....
Any luck finding that link?
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Old 10-18-10, 07:26 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by hrt4me View Post
Any luck finding that link?
I think there are some stats on this site:
http://kenkifer.com/
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Old 10-20-10, 10:58 AM
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wait wasn't katy trail built with money designated for bicycle facilities/green air. And hasn't it be a major part of the proposed Veloweb?
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Old 10-20-10, 03:53 PM
  #41  
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Yalc, I believe you are correct.
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Old 10-29-10, 07:11 AM
  #42  
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I knew speed limits would be talked about on Katy trail. May actually be an okay idea.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39903563
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Old 10-29-10, 08:02 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Yalc View Post
wait wasn't katy trail built with money designated for bicycle facilities/green air. And hasn't it be a major part of the proposed Veloweb?
Ii believe some of the funding was from the normal transportation sources used by Rails to trails, so no it was not bike specific funding.

Here is a clip from the wikipedia article which seems to indicate much of the funding was private:

By the early 1990s, Dallas residents, business people, and city and county officials proposed restoring the greenbelt along the railroad route and creating an urban park as part of the national Rails to Trails Conservancy program, established in 1986 and based in Washington, D.C.



Initial funding for the project came through Dallas County and state grants. The Friends of the Katy Trail, a nonprofit organization, was founded in 1997 to organize public and private support for development and maintenance of the Katy Trail. Their capital campaign has since raised $11 million from government sources and $12 million from private funding and land donations.
The Katy Trail is intended to provide an effective way of connecting the various city parks running from White Rock Lake to the planned park system along the Trinity River—it runs alongside Reverchon Park and the park system along Turtle Creek.
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Old 10-29-10, 09:07 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by pathdoc View Post
I knew speed limits would be talked about on Katy trail. May actually be an okay idea.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39903563
You'll still have to catch and ticket the people going too fast. Even then, say a 15mph speed limit is enough to kill or seriously injure someone if they land on their head the right way. How fast was this cyclist going? Does anyone have any ideas?

Lets play a math game. Formula: F = m Dv/Dt Where F = force, M=mass, Dv=delta velocity, Dt= delta time. A quick google search gives me .0455 as a unit conversion for pound-miles per hour per second.

Say, a 200lb cyclist (180+ bike) traveling at 15mph hits a jogger who is stopped. Lets say it takes .5 seconds to 'stop' motion completely, since the jogger will give a little when hit. That's 200*15/.5 *.0455= 273lbs of force applied instantly to someone's shoulders. I'm too lazy to calculate the falling velocity of the runner when they actually are accelerated from 0 to whatever speed when they hit. I suspect it's in the neighborhood of 200lbs of force directly to the head when they impact.

Given the impact is more along the lines of .2 seconds and not .5, that force will nearly triple.

Lets do something else: A runner doing speed work. 6min mile isn't too hard for someone 'fit'. I'm not much of a runner and can run a sub 6min mile. I weigh 190lbs dressed. Lets assume it takes .3 seconds for us to crash and stop.

so 190*10/.3=6333.3...(.0455) That's 288lbs of force. More force than my first example, and with the right bad circumstances, enough to kill someone.
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Old 10-29-10, 12:50 PM
  #45  
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Brad, its not that lowering the speed will reduce injury but rather reducing speed will give people more time to react and hopefully avoid an accident all together.
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Old 10-29-10, 01:46 PM
  #46  
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2, 5, 10 15mph per hour, it doesn't matter how fast your going, what matters is WHEN the obstacle turns into your path as to whether or not you can avoid them/it. Speed as nothing to do with it.

And as long as joggers can wear earphones that they they can't ear surrounding sounds through (i don't understand this one because I can hear through mine) and bikers don't give all the warning they are supposed to (I'm guilty of it to), accidents will always happen. And hey, because we are human, accidents will always happen.

I'm sorry about the tragedy for this women and her family but it was an accident, just like the 4yo girl in NY.
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Old 10-29-10, 02:18 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by canopus View Post
2, 5, 10 15mph per hour, it doesn't matter how fast your going, what matters is WHEN the obstacle turns into your path as to whether or not you can avoid them/it. Speed as nothing to do with it.
Traveling at 2 or 5 miles per hour is not as likely to cause serious injury. 10 is probably marginal. 15 and above are starting to be real risks.

Originally Posted by canopus View Post
And as long as joggers can wear earphones that they they can't ear surrounding sounds through (i don't understand this one because I can hear through mine) and bikers don't give all the warning they are supposed to (I'm guilty of it to), accidents will always happen. And hey, because we are human, accidents will always happen.
I tend to agree with this. I am curious do you also feel this way when a car hits a cyclist? I'm asking because I do for the most part., unless the motorist (or cyclist) are doing something extraordinary to place others at risk. Something like excessive speeding, DUI, etc...
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Old 10-29-10, 09:55 PM
  #48  
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For the Katy trail, just prohibit headphones and earplugs.

I figured out many years ago that they would decrease safety and stopped wearing them.
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Old 10-30-10, 05:53 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by bjtesch View Post
For the Katy trail, just....
...require all users to wear helmets.
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Old 11-01-10, 05:53 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by myrridin View Post
Here is a clip from the wikipedia article which seems to indicate much of the funding was private...
The DMN reported in an article on 10/31 that some funding did come from government transportation moneys and therefore bicycles could not legally be banned from the Katy.
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