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Rubbing hands together in excitement and anticipation and a rim query

Old 04-23-15, 09:35 PM
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Clark W. Griswold
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Rubbing hands together in excitement and anticipation and a rim query

Rubbing hands together in excitement and antcipation...huh? This dude must be crazy!
Yes I am crazy but my Co-Motion Cascadia frame is ready to be shipped and is just awaiting CC info so I can pay the rest off. Hence the excitement. Soon I will have something near to my dream touring bike and I cannot wait. I will try and get some pictures as I build or maybe when I am finished, depending on how it all goes together and my work schedule.

Now onto rim concerns.
I am now revisiting my rim choices and need some clarity here is what I am thinking (all 700c all 36h being laced to Phil Hubs with disc brakes and 28-32 tires) in no real order.

Velocity A23 OC (and probably A23 front for matching.
Velocity Dyad
Mavic A719
H+Son TB14

Price is not really an issue because they are all similarly priced enough. Unfortunately the TB14 is the only NMSW rim on the list (I cannot seem to get the Dyad NMSW through my distributors).
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Old 04-23-15, 09:55 PM
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Co- Motion uses Dyad rims on most of their complete touring bikes and tandems. That probably says a lot. I have also used Dyad rims on our bikes and have been happy with them. My wife has about 12,000 miles on her Co-Mo Nor'wester Tour in the 4 years since she got it. It was built up using dyad rims, Ultegra hubs, and Wheelsmith spokes. I have Dyad rims on 2 bikes, so I don't have as many miles on individual rims as she does, but we've not had any problems.

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Old 04-23-15, 10:26 PM
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for convenience and availability purposes on a touring bike, i wouldn't want an OC rim. and for durability reasons would avoid low-profile rims. and i prefer a machined braking surface, if only to avoid the more likely possibility of a ridge at the joint on a non-machined braking surface.

so, i'd go Dyad or Mavic.
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Old 04-24-15, 04:07 AM
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Personally, I am not convinced of the OC concept for longevity of the rim.

Dyads are OK in my experience, but I am now a fan of the Mavic A719.

Of course, all that could change with a hiccup in quality control in any brand.
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Old 04-24-15, 04:27 AM
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I had a 26" Mavic A719 that cracked recently. It wasn't catastrophic, but the wheel became unable to be trued. It could be a one-off, but I'm no longer a fan.
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Old 04-25-15, 06:54 PM
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Good to know on all accounts I have my work cut out for me. I think O/C is probably not for me right now so that can go so I think it is down to Dyad or A719 but leaning heavily towards the Dyad which is where I sort of started at. It was good to hear some more opinions I have been doing my research but it is always good to hear from my BF touring peeps.
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Old 04-25-15, 08:21 PM
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I choose SunRingle Helix27 for my tourer. Tubeless ready, disc only, very solid, 32 hole only but they're mountain bike rims, stronger than the 36h Mavic a319 I've used extensively in the past.
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Old 04-26-15, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr IGH
I choose SunRingle Helix27 for my tourer. Tubeless ready, disc only, very solid, 32 hole only but they're mountain bike rims, stronger than the 36h Mavic a319 I've used extensively in the past.
Yeah I couldn't do 32 for my tourer. I am a fat-ass and a chronic overpacker. SunRingle has some nice stuff though but I feel like I should stick with 36 spokes. I might still check it out though because at some point I will be building up a mountain bike and disc only tubeless ready would be my kind of language for MTB.

I haven't heard a lot of good from the A319 but the A719 is more mixed but trending towards decent so we shall see.
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Old 04-26-15, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by veganbikes
Soon I will have something near to my dream touring bike and I cannot wait. I will try and get some pictures as I build or maybe when I am finished, depending on how it all goes together and my work schedule.
Congrats on the very nice frame. You're well on your way to a great bike!!!

Do post pics as you can. I would be cool to start a thread and show everything from unpacking the frame to riding it out of the driveway.
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Old 04-26-15, 11:42 PM
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WABAC Mavic mod 4..
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Old 04-27-15, 08:21 AM
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I just built up a set of disc wheels for my touring bike with Velocity A23 OCs. I think they're nice because both front and rear can be built with almost no dish. That actually makes it more convenient to service on tour, because you need fewer spoke lengths. There's no difference in the process of building or repairing a wheel with an OC rim.
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Old 04-27-15, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by veganbikes
Yeah I couldn't do 32 for my tourer. I am a fat-ass and a chronic overpacker. SunRingle has some nice stuff though but I feel like I should stick with 36 spokes. I might still check it out though because at some point I will be building up a mountain bike and disc only tubeless ready would be my kind of language for MTB.

I haven't heard a lot of good from the A319 but the A719 is more mixed but trending towards decent so we shall see.
I used to make my MTB wheels 36 spoke, with modern tubeless ready rims there's no need to. I'm 220lbs and my 32hole MTB wheels are better than my older 36 hole wheels. Modern tubeless ready rims are stronger because the bead section of the rim is shorter and the extra material is moved to the spoke track. A319s are stronger than 719s due to the extra material/weight but I don't use either anymore, modern tubeless ready rims are better. Also using disc brakes allows MTB rims to be used, the SunRingle Helix 27 are 27mm wide, 23mm inside, better tyre profile on wider rims. My Pasela 38mm measure a true 38mm wide. BTW, tubeless ready rims work well well with or without tubes, I'm getting ready to go tubeless but so far I'm running tubes.
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Old 04-29-15, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr IGH
I used to make my MTB wheels 36 spoke, with modern tubeless ready rims there's no need to. I'm 220lbs and my 32hole MTB wheels are better than my older 36 hole wheels. Modern tubeless ready rims are stronger because the bead section of the rim is shorter and the extra material is moved to the spoke track. A319s are stronger than 719s due to the extra material/weight but I don't use either anymore, modern tubeless ready rims are better. Also using disc brakes allows MTB rims to be used, the SunRingle Helix 27 are 27mm wide, 23mm inside, better tyre profile on wider rims. My Pasela 38mm measure a true 38mm wide. BTW, tubeless ready rims work well well with or without tubes, I'm getting ready to go tubeless but so far I'm running tubes.

You are giving me some confidence in that realm but I am carrying cargo as well and I am still just a wee cautious.
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Old 04-29-15, 07:13 PM
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Dyad; or if you want to go a bit wider, Velocity NoBS.

I would definitely not go with the A23 or similar narrower rim.

And if you have purchased the hubs yet, consider 40 spokes instead of 36 on the rear.
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Old 04-29-15, 07:57 PM
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You really can't go wrong with either Dyads or Mavic 719's, heck I've even seen Mavic 319's hold up to heavy loads for many thousands of miles.

Btw, Isn't this where cyccommute chimes in and states that it's not the quality of the rim but rather the quality of the butted spokes that truly make the difference
(Shame on me for being associated with these boards way toooooo long)
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Old 04-30-15, 08:38 AM
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- Mavic 319 are stronger/stiffer than Mavic 719 and are a better rim for touring (heavier too but that's why they're stronger).
- Forget old rim designs such as the Mavic, modern tubeless ready rims are stronger and lighter. If your touring bike has disc brakes, then the best choice is a MTB rim, wider, lighter and stronger. TR rims have short beads and stronger spoke tracks compared to older hook bead rims (such as Mavic 319/719) and weigh less with more strength/stiffness.
- Straight gauge spokes make a stronger/stiffer wheel compared to double butted spokes (comparing 2.0 SG to 2.0/1.8 DB).
- The debate over 36/40 hole vs 32 hole rims is over. The MTB market has gravitated to 32H almost exclusively, the stress a MTB wheels receives from a 300lb Clyde is much worse than any touring wheel will experience. All that's available in 36/40 hole rims are old, hook bead rims designs. You get a weaker wheel with orphan hubs (esp with 40H).

Stans and SunRingle offer some great TR rims that are perfect for touring, esp if your bike has disc brakes. The SunRingle Helix 27 TR is stronger, stiffer and lighter than either the 719 or the 319 and cost $62. Can't beat it, esp the greater width, allows better handling when running those 38/42mm tyres.
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Old 05-04-15, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by nfmisso
Dyad; or if you want to go a bit wider, Velocity NoBS.

I would definitely not go with the A23 or similar narrower rim.

And if you have purchased the hubs yet, consider 40 spokes instead of 36 on the rear.
Already been talked out of 40 holes! The Dyad is most certainly in the running. The NoBS is nice but I don't need a ton of width my planned max width is going to be 700x35 but mostly will run 28s/32s.

Originally Posted by robow
You really can't go wrong with either Dyads or Mavic 719's, heck I've even seen Mavic 319's hold up to heavy loads for many thousands of miles.

Btw, Isn't this where cyccommute chimes in and states that it's not the quality of the rim but rather the quality of the butted spokes that truly make the difference
(Shame on me for being associated with these boards way toooooo long)
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...it happens. Sometimes you just can't leave. It is like Cheers or my local chinese delivery at work.

Originally Posted by Mr IGH
- Mavic 319 are stronger/stiffer than Mavic 719 and are a better rim for touring (heavier too but that's why they're stronger).
- Forget old rim designs such as the Mavic, modern tubeless ready rims are stronger and lighter. If your touring bike has disc brakes, then the best choice is a MTB rim, wider, lighter and stronger. TR rims have short beads and stronger spoke tracks compared to older hook bead rims (such as Mavic 319/719) and weigh less with more strength/stiffness.
- Straight gauge spokes make a stronger/stiffer wheel compared to double butted spokes (comparing 2.0 SG to 2.0/1.8 DB).
- The debate over 36/40 hole vs 32 hole rims is over. The MTB market has gravitated to 32H almost exclusively, the stress a MTB wheels receives from a 300lb Clyde is much worse than any touring wheel will experience. All that's available in 36/40 hole rims are old, hook bead rims designs. You get a weaker wheel with orphan hubs (esp with 40H).

Stans and SunRingle offer some great TR rims that are perfect for touring, esp if your bike has disc brakes. The SunRingle Helix 27 TR is stronger, stiffer and lighter than either the 719 or the 319 and cost $62. Can't beat it, esp the greater width, allows better handling when running those 38/42mm tyres.
Dang it you are making such good points. My body is saying "36 you fat ass" but my mind is saying "32 tubeless ready MTB is making more sense" ATYO what would be your dream price is no concern rim that exists in real life that I can purchase in the 32h TR rim category? I know you have mentioned the Helix 27 but maybe there is something better?
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Old 05-05-15, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by veganbikes
...your dream price is no concern rim that exists in real life that I can purchase in the 32h TR rim category? I know you have mentioned the Helix 27 but maybe there is something better?
The Stans Flow EX are a step up from the Helix 27, 29mm wide, same weigh, welded seam. If I was going 35mm max, I would use the Helix TR 25s....

In fact, I did I built two sets of wheels for the same price as one fancy set. One set is Shimano XT 756 rear hub, Alfine Dyno front hub, aero Sanpin spokes in the front, DT 2.0/1.8 in the rear, SunRingle Helix25 rims. They're my lightweight gravel grinder wheels and I run 32mm Paselas on them. I beat on them without any concern for the road, riding with my local club on gravel rides.

The other set is my heavy duty commuting/touring wheelset. Rear hub is a Shimano XT 756, front is a Shimano 3D71 dyno hub, DT 2.0 spokes, SunRingle Helix 27 rims. I run 38mm Paselas most of the time and Kenda Klondike studded tyres in the winter.

The wheelsets swap out with any adjustment to the disc calipers or rear derailleur, in the winter I can change between studs or road tyres in a few minutes.
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Old 05-05-15, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr IGH
- Mavic 319 are stronger/stiffer than Mavic 719 and are a better rim for touring (heavier too but that's why they're stronger).
- Forget old rim designs such as the Mavic, modern tubeless ready rims are stronger and lighter. If your touring bike has disc brakes, then the best choice is a MTB rim, wider, lighter and stronger. TR rims have short beads and stronger spoke tracks compared to older hook bead rims (such as Mavic 319/719) and weigh less with more strength/stiffness.
- Straight gauge spokes make a stronger/stiffer wheel compared to double butted spokes (comparing 2.0 SG to 2.0/1.8 DB).
- The debate over 36/40 hole vs 32 hole rims is over. The MTB market has gravitated to 32H almost exclusively, the stress a MTB wheels receives from a 300lb Clyde is much worse than any touring wheel will experience. All that's available in 36/40 hole rims are old, hook bead rims designs. You get a weaker wheel with orphan hubs (esp with 40H).

Stans and SunRingle offer some great TR rims that are perfect for touring, esp if your bike has disc brakes. The SunRingle Helix 27 TR is stronger, stiffer and lighter than either the 719 or the 319 and cost $62. Can't beat it, esp the greater width, allows better handling when running those 38/42mm tyres.
I agree, except for the straight gauge spokes...maybe stiffer, but not stronger. Just ordered a touring wheelset with White Industries CLD hubs 32-hole, Velocity Aileron NMSW rims and double-butted spokes. I debated 32 vs. 36, and since this is supposed to be a gravel grinding rim, it should be plenty strong.
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Old 05-05-15, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr IGH
- Straight gauge spokes make a stronger/stiffer wheel compared to double butted spokes (comparing 2.0 SG to 2.0/1.8 DB).
Straight gauge spokes might very well make the wheel stiffer but many experts including the late Sheldon Brown stated the slightly more elastic wheel with butted spokes will make the wheel more durable and more resistant to instantaneous shock. That being said, I too have said that straight 14g spokes are probably more than adequate for most tourers.

Wheelbuilding

As to the Mavic 319 being a stronger rim than the 719, I think you'll get some argument from Mavic on that one, hence the 50% increase in cost for the 719 and that not for saving only 30 grams per rim. The rims aren't made from the same alloy and so the strength to weight argument goes out the window. Again, I've built up wheels using both rims and both have served me well so take your pick.

Last edited by robow; 05-05-15 at 08:26 AM.
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Old 05-05-15, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by robow
Straight gauge spokes might very well make the wheel stiffer but many experts including the late Sheldon Brown stated the slightly more elastic wheel with butted spokes will make the wheel more durable and more resistant to instantaneous shock....
Not true, there's a discussion on the road bike forum where we squashed this myth. Straight gauge spokes 2.0mm make a stronger, stiffer and longer lasting wheel compared to using 2.0/1.8mm db spokes. There's no engineering principal that supports the db spoke myth, quite the opposite, it's very easy to prove it's a myth. Google "engineering superposition" and then we can have the discussion.

If db spokes were better for a heavy duty wheelset, I would have used them.

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Old 05-05-15, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by robow
...The rims aren't made from the same alloy and so the strength to weight argument goes out the window. Again, I've built up wheels using both rims and both have served me well so take your pick.
Again, not true, the 719 are lighter and hardened. They are more likely to deform due to less material and the hardening doesn't enhance their yield limit. Save your money if all you want is strength, the 319 are better by virtue of the extra ~60gms of material. Of course, why bother with 30 year old designs, there's much better on the market today.
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Old 05-05-15, 09:01 AM
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My understanding is DB spokes are every bit as strong as straight gauge, since almost all the stress is at the ends of the spoke, which is the same gauge. DB spokes will give a less stiff ride than straight gauge and weigh less for equal strength. Is this all a myth?
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Old 05-05-15, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr IGH
Not true, there's a discussion on the road bike forum where we squashed this myth. Straight gauge spokes 2.0mm make a stronger, stiffer and longer lasting wheel compared to using 2.0/1.8mm db spokes. There's no engineering principal that supports the db spoke myth, quite the opposite, it's very easy to prove it's a myth. Google "engineering superposition" and then we can have the discussion.

If db spokes were better for a heavy duty wheelset, I would have used them.
Darn, where's cyccommute when I need him. Stuart, tell him about Alpine's triple butted spokes of the Gods. You need to set this fellow Coloradian straight (errr I mean butted)
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Old 05-05-15, 09:47 AM
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Not to get all weight-weenie on you, but the Dyads are considerably lighter than Mavic A-719s and less expensive. I've got two sets of Dyad wheels used for commuting a touring. Both are 36-hole, one laced to Ultegra hubs and the other to Shimano DX hubs. Although I prefer DB spokes, and my wheels laced to Ultegra hubs have them, my second set has straight-gauge spokes because they were so much less expensive.
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