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Old 05-15-17, 06:25 AM
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So if the law says you are riding a donkey, you are riding a donkey? How about if the law is silent? I'm with BA, there's a place for this discussion, and it's not in the touring subforum. I'll give you the link again Electric Bikes - Bike Forums
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Old 05-15-17, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by alan s
So if the law says you are riding a donkey, you are riding a donkey? How about if the law is silent?
Correct, if the statutes were to define a cyclist as an equestrian then the laws that apply to equestrians would apply to cyclists, unless otherwise stated. As far as where the law is silent, that is very unlikely in the US. By way of example, I cannot find anything that excludes my e-bike from the definition of a moped, which requires a license, in New Mexico. As a result of this, on my summer tour, which begins in about two weeks, I will not go through NM.
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Old 05-15-17, 08:11 AM
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I think you are getting confused by how a mode of transportation is classified for the purpose of regulation, and what the mode of transportation actually is. I don't care how an electric vehicle or other motorized vehicle is classified under the law. In common parlance, it is not a bicycle. Nor is a donkey anything other than a donkey.
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Old 05-15-17, 08:43 AM
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Bicycle touring is about the touring and enjoyment.. not the bicycle.

When you start defining your validity by the type of bicycle you ride (man that sounds so funny as an adult) you have lost your bearings (pun intended).

When you discriminate against others because of the type of bicycle they ride (sounds even funnier as an adult) you have really lost your way.
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Old 05-15-17, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by BigAura
...I am also blessed by the luck-of-nature. If I was medically unable to pedal and required a motorized transport I would. BUT I WOULD NEVER call myself a cyclist. I would graciously accept my circumstance and move-on.

...You need to quit your trolling.
Why? Who would you imagine you were offending by calling yourself a cyclist? Do you think anyone out there actually cares?

And I believe, seeing as the mods said the discussion was allowed, continually telling people they don't belong here would make you the troll. Oops.

Originally Posted by alan s
...In common parlance, it is not a bicycle.
That's odd. Because, where I live the common man doesn't look at an ebike and say: "Hey there's a motorcycle". They all say: Hey there's an e bike".
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Old 05-15-17, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by 350htrr
..., BUT, assistance, electric or mechanical is assistance... Whether mechanical or electric. Try riding a 23% mile long hill with a 27 speed mechanical assistance and then on a single speed, I can assure you, that you Will find a difference, and single speed riders, riders who ONLY ride single speeds, will call you a cheat...
I do not understand.

A multi-speed bike requires muscle power to climb the hills. A single speed bike requires muscle power to climb the hills. Are you trying to say that comparing those two types of bicycles is the same as comparing bikes that use only muscle power to a motorized bike that might also use some muscle power on the pedals to climb those hills?

Perhaps if I was old enough to have been raised on penny farthings, I might understand your point better. But I draw a line between muscle power and external power sources.

If you want to ride your E bikes on the roads, great, that is where the motorcyles are too. And I will applaud you for using a greener form of transportation.

But what I find offensive is when people say that their 750 watt motors are for a bit of assistance and then demand the right to use facilities that are designated for muscle power users.
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Old 05-15-17, 09:44 AM
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What facilities are those?

I tour on roads and this sounds like the same argument cage drivers use when they see me there.. expecting a non motorized cyclist to use the sidewalk.

MUP's? I'm thinking multi covers that.

I guess we all need to learn how to share.. cyclists included.

As someone who tries to tour regularly on a bicycle I would give this piece of advice to others thinking of it:

Don't try to preserve the status quo. Whether it is the comfort you are used to, the locales you ordinarily frequent, the food you usually eat, the people you normally talk to or the method of travel you are anticipating. Embrace what's different and know that at least it won't hurt, if it does not enrich, your experience.

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Old 05-15-17, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by alan s
And BTW, I think 1000-3000 watt motors are becoming the norm, motors that can reach speeds in excess of 40 mph...
Nope. In MD 500 watts is the limit, in VA it's 750 watts. If you are being passed at 40mph on the C&O or Mt Vernon Trail you should chase them down and get their license number and report to the Park Police. A license plate would be required in MD at a speed faster than 20 or in VA at a speed faster than 25. Tourist in MSN, in WI it's 750 watts and 20mph. E-bikes are permitted on trails but motor has to be shut off.

Originally Posted by alan s
I don't care how an electric vehicle or other motorized vehicle is classified under the law. In common parlance, it is not a bicycle.
I've been on a 3 year hiatus from cycling due to my leg injury. Being the town "bike guy" I am congratulated daily by neighbors for being seen back out on my "bicycle". Not once have I been congratulated for being back out on my "electric vehicle".

Originally Posted by BigAura
There's even a sub-forum here...
Yes... 350htrr, Robert C and I are regulars at the electric bike sub-forum. Unfortunately that group doesn't have much expertise in loaded touring. They chat mostly about motors, batteries and electrical/mechanical minutia. @imi started this thread 2 years ago to get some opinions on how an e-bike could be used for loaded touring. We're just chiming in to offer suggestions to our colleague on this touring forum. When and if the moderators move the discussion to the e-bike sub-forum we're glad to continue there.

Originally Posted by BigAura
The entire world is full of roads built to accommodate motorized vehicles. Please ride there and go as fast as you like!
I do. The only bike path nearby doesn't go anywhere and I don't use it. If I ever took a tour on something like the C&O, GAP or Katy the assist would be unnecesssary and turned off. The motor and battery would just be dead weight along for the ride until the challenging road terrain returns. On more remote, less popular routes I would follow the local ordinance as suggested by Robert C.

The last time I used the C&O canal before I had an assist I was almost blasted off the trail by the lycra clad DC commuters on their unassisted fast bikes. That spot where the paved Capital Crescent bike route merges with the C&O is like a ramp onto the Beltway! Once while paralelling the VA Creeper trail on the road a motorist rolled down the window and shouted, "Get onto the Creeper!". Had I been on an e-bike the cyclists would have then yelled, "Get onto the road!"

Originally Posted by BigAura
Yes I'm a fit and healthy 64yo...
Yes, but that can change overnight with an accident, stroke or any other disability. You'll do anything to continue your bike hobby.
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Old 05-15-17, 10:01 AM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
I do not understand.

A multi-speed bike requires muscle power to climb the hills. A single speed bike requires muscle power to climb the hills. Are you trying to say that comparing those two types of bicycles is the same as comparing bikes that use only muscle power to a motorized bike that might also use some muscle power on the pedals to climb those hills?

Perhaps if I was old enough to have been raised on penny farthings, I might understand your point better. But I draw a line between muscle power and external power sources.

If you want to ride your E bikes on the roads, great, that is where the motorcyles are too. And I will applaud you for using a greener form of transportation.

But what I find offensive is when people say that their 750 watt motors are for a bit of assistance and then demand the right to use facilities that are designated for muscle power users.
I actually agree 100% with everything you just said... Technically.

But what I am trying to nail down is the word "assistance" and I am comparing 350 watts max of electrical motor assistance to work out to "effectively" be about the same as 27gears of mechanical assistance to ones pedaling effort, when comparing both to a single speed bicycle when using either type of assistance for going up big hills...
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Old 05-15-17, 10:09 AM
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I'll never understand what threatens people here so much about people touring on an e-bike. We've had motors on bikes nearly as long as bikes have existed, no one has yet removed your ability to pedal if you so choose. I met a few in the Netherlands, they were every bit as happy as me. It never seemed to occur to them that they weren't really touring. TO be quite honest, I'd rather hang with folks doing things their own way, instead of the purists telling others they are doing it wrong, it is why I could never be bothered to join a homebrew club.

As far as where threads belong, it seems fairly obvious to me. If it is a question about touring, it should be here, and if it is a question about the electronic bits on the bike, it should be in the e-bike forum. You're no more likely to get good tent or pannier information there than you are to get good recharging information here, the purpose of the subforums are to place the information where it belongs. I haven't seen anyone tell those with fat single speeds that there are separate sub forums that their bike belongs in, so their rack questions should go there.

Originally Posted by BobG
When and if the moderators move the discussion to the e-bike sub-forum we're glad to continue there.
The absolute correct answer on where threads belong, actually.
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Old 05-15-17, 10:33 AM
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Well spoken Jeff !!
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Old 05-15-17, 11:46 AM
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+1

In the next two months I'm doing two trips that involve ferries, planes, trains and a bicycle, and am planning another that involves a helicopter. 5 modes of transportation in which only one is a bike. I don't really feel I'm cheating with the other four modes because I never agreed to some sort of touring rule limiting their use.
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Old 05-15-17, 01:14 PM
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Touring regardless of what dinks think.

Originally Posted by alan s
Not quite sure where you are drawing the line. That bike is starting to look like a motorcycle. Why not just ride an electric motorcycle and be done with all the pretending? You can hike for a couple hours to get some exercise. You're not fooling anyone but yourself. And BTW, I think 1000-3000 watt motors are becoming the norm, motors that can reach speeds in excess of 40 mph and batteries with a range of 75 miles and higher. I draw the line at any motorized assistance, which makes me a mainstream, traditional bike tourer.
It always amuses me when haters that can't afford something that others have try and belittle whatever "it" is. I used to be that way until I grew up and stopped worrying about small minded people. If I had wanted an electric motorcycle I would have bought one, maybe I will someday. What I wanted was what I built, a human powered bicycle with power assist that can take hundreds of pounds of gear places that a traditional bike has difficulty navigating, for weeks at a time and distances that are far in excess of what an electric motorcycle is capable of. Often when sitting in a base camp after a day ride, people will drive in and unpack their bikes for a ride. I don't look down on them, I don't feel superior, but listening to whiners sit back and judge others like I see in this forum has taught me that sadly bike riders aren't all alike. I am proud of my bike, I did build it after all. She is the only one of her kind at the moment and I like that too.

Since you obviously are out of your league on ebike motors and batteries let me help you out some. Yes, there are 1000w to 3000w motors. Most of them are hub motors, not center drives, and some of those reach speeds over 40 mph if the bike is geared to do so. They are not the "norm" by any stretch of the imagination, however. They are also not classified as a bicycle or street legal. Also, if you think there is a motor/battery combo that will do 40 mph for 75 miles you're simply deluded. 750w is equal to 1 hp. A bicycle with a 750w electric motor that can't exceed 28 mph., on motor power only, is classified a bicycle, not a motor vehicle, not a power assisted vehicle, but a bicycle. That means anywhere a bike is allowed to ride, so am I.

I chose not to conform to your narrow minding view of a... let's see, what was your babbling bull****, oh yeah, "mainstream, traditional bike tourer", because I wanted comfort and luxury while riding for extended periods. My bike, with panniers and bar bag and everything I ride with, weighs in just under 175 lbs. fully loaded. The trailer weighs 14.5 lbs. and carries up to 100 lbs. of creature comforts. Add my weight of over 250 lbs., the weight of a bottle of Tanqueray gin and a large bottle of olives and it's more than most tandems can carry.

I find it funny that I have never run into riders "On the Road" that feel like you couch surfers seem to. Most are very open minded, jump at the offer to try for themselves and often take advantage of the portable shower and solar oven I ride with, Tanqueray and olives too.
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Old 05-15-17, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet
and am planning another that involves a helicopter. 5 modes of transportation in which only one is a bike.
Whats the helicopter for??? I wanna come!

Originally Posted by BBassett
Tanqueray and olives too.
You had me til there. I won't judge your bike or your touring, but I'll sure judge your poor taste in alcohol
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Old 05-15-17, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by jefnvk
Whats the helicopter for??? I wanna come!
Careful what you wish for. As Denis Leary once quipped: "Stevie Ray Vaughn in dead and we can't get Bon Jovi near a helicopter."
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Old 05-15-17, 02:03 PM
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This thread should be moved to the ultra heavyweight subforum. I had no idea. Absolutely, anyone in your situation needs a motor. In fact, 750 watts seems wholly inadequate.

And BTW, as a desk jockey, I take great offence at the term "couch surfer."
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Old 05-15-17, 02:08 PM
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Part of that s24o thing we were discussing in the other thread. I'm planning to chopper my bike up near the summit of a local mountain, hike to the top, and ride down the logging road back to civilization. I've done it before in the same area climbing an alpine route.
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Old 05-15-17, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by 350htrr
I actually agree 100% with everything you just said... Technically.

But what I am trying to nail down is the word "assistance" and I am comparing 350 watts max of electrical motor assistance to work out to "effectively" be about the same as 27gears of mechanical assistance to ones pedaling effort, when comparing both to a single speed bicycle when using either type of assistance for going up big hills...
I still don't get it. If e-assist is the same as a 27 speed, why not just get a 27 speed bike; it is cheaper

IIRC from physics 201 that it takes X amount of work to get an object up an incline. If it takes X amount of watts, it really does not matter if you are on a single speed or have 27 gears, the amount of work is the same. How that work is accomplished is what varies between a geared bike and a SS. The geared bike requires many more revolutions for a given distance than a SS, and is usually slower; meaning that less work is applied for a longer period of time to cover the same distance.

I believe it would be analogous to moving 2 piles of flour, each pile containing 200 pounds of flour. One pile of flour is packaged in 20 lb. bags(27 gears) and the other is packaged in 50 pound bags (SS). One pile could be loaded into the truck with 10 trips; the other pile could be loaded using only 4 trips. The amount of work is the same.

In your example of the 30 km assist on a 100 km trip tells me that the e-assist reduced the amount of work by 30%. This is what I don't get about your statement.

I still don't care what folks ride. I have a friend who rides an e-bike, and I am happy to see him out there with a big smile on his face.
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Old 05-15-17, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by jefnvk

You had me til there. I won't judge your bike or your touring, but I'll sure judge your poor taste in alcohol
I know some state politicians that have a bowling league and they all own Tanqueray bottle bongs.

I don't mind schooling people in ebikes or touring as far as my knowledge extends, so I can do it with Gin also. The Dutch originally produced Gin to aid digestion and help with stomach problems, I personally consume it to easy my gout and in the hopes, I don't ever get gallstones. Tanqueray #10 having citrus distilled with the juniper berries makes it, "like no other." Just ask them, they will tell you. I mostly like big green olives with pimento, and who doesn't feel cool kicked back in a 3 lbs. camp chair, in the middle of anywhere, holding a silicone martini glass with olives on a pepper oiled toothpick? I would drink it even if I didn't need the bottles for other reasons.

Hey, I drink Nestle tea too, it's pretty low rent, want to bad mouth that too?
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Old 05-15-17, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug64
I still don't get it. If e-assist is the same as a 27 speed, why not just get a 27 speed bike; it is cheaper

IIRC from physics 201 that it takes X amount of work to get an object up an incline. If it takes X amount of watts, it really does not matter if you are on a single speed or have 27 gears, the amount of work is the same. How that work is accomplished is what varies between a geared bike and a SS. The geared bike requires many more revolutions for a given distance than a SS, and is usually slower; meaning that less work is applied for a longer period of time to cover the same distance.

I believe it would be analogous to moving 2 piles of flour, each pile containing 200 pounds of flour. One pile of flour is packaged in 20 lb. bags(27 gears) and the other is packaged in 50 pound bags (SS). One pile could be loaded into the truck with 10 trips; the other pile could be loaded using only 4 trips. The amount of work is the same.

In your example of the 30 km assist on a 100 km trip tells me that the e-assist reduced the amount of work by 30%. This is what I don't get about your statement.

I still don't care what folks ride. I have a friend who rides an e-bike, and I am happy to see him out there with a big smile on his face.
30k of assist is not 30%, because no one is putting out effort 100% of the time. Coasting, pedaling lightly, etc. Probably closer to 50/50.
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Old 05-15-17, 02:58 PM
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Another thread down the tubes.
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Old 05-15-17, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet
Part of that s24o thing we were discussing in the other thread. I'm planning to chopper my bike up near the summit of a local mountain, hike to the top, and ride down the logging road back to civilization. I've done it before in the same area climbing an alpine route.
Sounds fun!

Originally Posted by BBassett
Hey, I drink Nestle tea too, it's pretty low rent, want to bad mouth that too?
As one who has a tea strainer on his packing list, yes, I kind of do want to badmouth that!

But despite my joking, glad to see someone else that knows the history of the various liquors. Can't stand the pine needle taste my self, but my "medicinal" choices are Barenjager and Becherovka!
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Old 05-15-17, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by BBassett
...

Since you obviously are out of your league on ebike motors and batteries let me help you out some. Yes, there are 1000w to 3000w motors. Most of them are hub motors, not center drives, and some of those reach speeds over 40 mph if the bike is geared to do so. They are not the "norm" by any stretch of the imagination, however. They are also not classified as a bicycle or street legal. Also, if you think there is a motor/battery combo that will do 40 mph for 75 miles you're simply deluded. 750w is equal to 1 hp. A bicycle with a 750w electric motor that can't exceed 28 mph., on motor power only, is classified a bicycle, not a motor vehicle, not a power assisted vehicle, but a bicycle. That means anywhere a bike is allowed to ride, so am I.

....

Ebikes are not classified as bicycles everywhere. In WA state they are classified as "electric assist bicycle" (Ebike, <20mph and <1000W). This means they are allowed MOST places traditional bicycles are allowed. But ebikes are NOT allowed to be ridden on sidewalks or trails that explicitly state motorized vehicles are prohibited. RCW 46.61.710


I am all for people riding what they want. But I am also all for people knowing where they are allowed to ride and tour. Having trails which do not allow any type of motorized vehicle (including ebikes) is a good thing in my mind.
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Old 05-15-17, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by BobG
Yes, but that can change overnight with an accident, stroke or any other disability. You'll do anything to continue your bike hobby.
Nope I'd take up eBiking, maybe, but I wouldn't call myself a cyclist and I'd ride on the road with the other motor vehicles.
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Old 05-15-17, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by MixedRider
Ebikes are not classified as bicycles everywhere. In WA state they are classified as "electric assist bicycle" (Ebike, <20mph and <1000W). This means they are allowed MOST places traditional bicycles are allowed. But ebikes are NOT allowed to be ridden on sidewalks or trails that explicitly state motorized vehicles are prohibited. RCW 46.61.710


I am all for people riding what they want. But I am also all for people knowing where they are allowed to ride and tour. Having trails which do not allow any type of motorized vehicle (including ebikes) is a good thing in my mind.
I prefer the Federal definition of what an ebike is:

Defined. The federal Consumer Product Safety Act defines a "low-speed electric bicycle" as a two or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals, a top speed when powered solely by the motor under 20 mph (32 km/h) and an electric motor that produces less than 750 W (1.01 hp)

I ride anywhere bikes are allowed and have no problems, but then I ride sanely and obey traffic laws when around vehicles. Once again, by Federal definition, my bike, is not, a motor vehicle. Besides, as you might find out someday, who knows, I am sure stranger things have happened, most "trails" that are posted "No Bikes" or "No Electric Assisted Bikes" are covered in people, I hate people, that's why I try and ride where there are only a few.
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