Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Touring
Reload this Page >

touring when it is hotter than Hot

Touring Have a dream to ride a bike across your state, across the country, or around the world? Self-contained or fully supported? Trade ideas, adventures, and more in our bicycle touring forum.

touring when it is hotter than Hot

Old 06-23-15, 10:18 PM
  #1  
cyclezealot
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
cyclezealot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Fallbrook,Calif./Palau del Vidre, France
Posts: 13,192

Bikes: Klein QP, Fuji touring, Surly Cross Check, BCH City bike

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1259 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
touring when it is hotter than Hot

How did you do. I once got Heat Exhaustion at about 90... Long term forecast for the Pacific Northwest Interior is nearly 100 for days. What was your experience like with prolonged exposure to 95 degree plus weather. We might be hammered by such heat by the better part of a week on a 12 day bike tour.. ?
__________________
Pray for the Dead and Fight like Hell for the Living










^ Since January 1, 2012
cyclezealot is offline  
Old 06-23-15, 10:24 PM
  #2  
bikemig 
Senior Member
 
bikemig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Middle Earth (aka IA)
Posts: 15,128

Bikes: A bunch of old bikes and a few new ones

Mentioned: 107 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3611 Post(s)
Liked 64 Times in 57 Posts
That's no fun but at least it's not wet heat, right? Humidity is tough to deal with. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/op...-humidity.html

I'd find a way to keep my water cold; that's the best way I know of to lower internal body temperature. Personally I'd pick up a camelback (one of the smaller ones that hold 50 ounces) and fill that bag with ice from a convenience store and some water. There is nothing better than drinking cold water all day long on a hot ride.
bikemig is offline  
Old 06-23-15, 11:42 PM
  #3  
Doug64
Senior Member
 
Doug64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Oregon
Posts: 5,493
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 767 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 22 Times in 14 Posts
My wife and I have experienced temperatures of 109F for several days on at least 4 different extended tours. We found that getting up early and trying to get our day's riding in before 2:00 pm helped. We also keep well hydrated, and use electrolyte replacement drinks.

Get used to riding in the heat by riding in the heat. We have put in some long rides on 95 F days getting ready for an eastern oregon tour starting the 1st week of July. Right now a 50 mile ride in the low 90's feels pretty good.

One of my front panniers is insulated, and it will keep drinks cool, when ice can be obtained to fill up an empty bottle. Unfortunately, some of our our hottest days were in areas with long distances between resupply points; eastern Oregon, southern Idaho, Wyoming and interior British Columbia.

Also, those neck cooler wraps, the kind you soak in water , really do work.
[/UR

If you find shade use it, or improvise. Also a white or light colored shirt or jersey helps. In areas of high temps and low humidity a cotton T-shirt is cooler than the wicking tech T-shirts.


Eastern Oregon's High Desert.


Insulated front pannier. Duct tape and a cheap Walmart sleeping pad. The top is capped with a tight fitting piece of pad.


We made our prototype in Wyoming on a cross country ride 8 years ago, and have used an insulated front pannier every tour since then.

Last edited by Doug64; 06-23-15 at 11:49 PM.
Doug64 is offline  
Old 06-24-15, 05:50 AM
  #4  
rcschafer
Senior Member
 
rcschafer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: New Orleans, LA, USA
Posts: 269

Bikes: '59 Raleigh Lenton, '86 Peugeot PSN-10 Triathalon, '84 Peugeot PGN-10, 8? Peugeot UE-18, Peugeot NS-540, '86 Giant Iguana (Xtracycle), Holdsworth Gemini tandem, Surly Cross Check fixie, '86 Centurion MV Ironman

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Love the insulated pannier, will start on one soonest! Could've used it this past weekend...

One note on those neck wraps, they rely on evaporation to work and might not be as effective in more humid areas. I tried one down here in south Louisiana and it was pretty uncomfortable. Since OP is in the PNW this might not be an issue.
rcschafer is offline  
Old 06-24-15, 05:58 AM
  #5  
TallTourist
Senior Member
 
TallTourist's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Touring Latin America Currently
Posts: 249

Bikes: Vivente Deccan XXXL Slightly modified

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 116 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I always just soak my clothing in water when it's really hot, if you can find a cheap white long sleeved cotton shirt and long johns or something like that they will hold water for ages and keep you cool especially while moving or in wind. I've done this for years and it works like a charm while touring, tree-planting or hauling giant duffel bags on ones back through the desert. Even if you don't have cotton clothing it works well with synthetics. The aforementioned desert slog was done in a black synthetic top soaked in river water and a Tilley hat.
TallTourist is offline  
Old 06-24-15, 07:06 AM
  #6  
staehpj1 
Senior Member
 
staehpj1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 9,245
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 154 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by cyclezealot View Post
How did you do. I once got Heat Exhaustion at about 90... Long term forecast for the Pacific Northwest Interior is nearly 100 for days. What was your experience like with prolonged exposure to 95 degree plus weather. We might be hammered by such heat by the better part of a week on a 12 day bike tour.. ?
I hate hot weather. That said I do acclimate to it. I still don't like it though.

I try to schedule my trips to avoid hot weather, but for some routes that just isn't possible.

Hot and humid is worse that hot and dry unless the hot and dry is much hotter. We did the TA a year of record heat. We managed fine, but it would have been nicer if cooler. We also did the lower half of the SC during an early heat wave. It was crazy hot in the Mojave, at least 110 F and probably more like 115 F. Again we managed fine, but I hated the heat and suffered a good bit.

The key is to stay hydrated. It also helps to ride early, even before daylight, and knock off early for the day. The problem with knocking off early is that unless you have a place to stop that has either shade or water to get in it is still miserable. Even doing all that I hated the heat. Did I mention that I hate the heat? I sometimes wonder why I moved to Florida
staehpj1 is offline  
Old 06-24-15, 07:30 AM
  #7  
saddlesores
Senior Member
 
saddlesores's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bangkok...and....Hainan
Posts: 2,993

Bikes: inferior steel....and....noodly aluminium

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 698 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by cyclezealot View Post
What was your experience like with prolonged exposure to 95 degree plus weather.
awesome! love it! alice springs, cambodia, nevada, arizona, ........ as long as it's a dry
heat i'm good.....100 degrees, 110 degrees, whatever.






carry water, lots of water. monitor salt intake.
remember to drink. if you're not thirsty, drink twice as much.
if you're tired, take a break. take many breaks.
take a break even if not tired, no telling when the next one will come along.
carry shade.....a small tarp and some thin ropes.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
ALB-LV05-a.jpg (99.6 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg
DV07-a.jpg (100.1 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg
DV03-a.jpg (99.6 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg
Picture 431.jpg (99.9 KB, 15 views)
saddlesores is offline  
Old 06-24-15, 07:49 AM
  #8  
bradtx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Pearland, Texas
Posts: 7,580

Bikes: Cannondale, Trek, Raleigh, Santana

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 304 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
cyclezealot, HYDRATE!

Basically you should drink enough to pee at least once an hour. When it's humid this is easier to remember because the sweat doesn't evaporate like it will when hot and the humidity is low.

Brad
bradtx is offline  
Old 06-24-15, 08:00 AM
  #9  
prathmann
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Bay Area, Calif.
Posts: 7,261
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 657 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by rcschafer View Post
Love the insulated pannier, will start on one soonest! Could've used it this past weekend...
I do something similar but just use insulation that I'm carrying anyway. Wrapping a sleeping bag and/or jacket/etc. around cold food and drinks keeps them cool for a long time. Just make sure you have a watertight plastic bag around the ice and cold items.
prathmann is offline  
Old 06-24-15, 08:26 AM
  #10  
Tourist in MSN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 5,794

Bikes: 1961 Ideor, 1994 Bridgestone MB-6, 2006 Airnimal Joey, 2009 Thorn Sherpa, 2013 Thorn Nomad, 2015 VO Pass Hunter, 2017 Lynskey Backroad, 2017 Raleigh Gran Prix, Perfekt 3 Speed -age unknown, 1980s Bianchi Mixte on a trainer. Others are now gone.

Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1235 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 11 Times in 10 Posts
I carry enough water bottles to hold a gallon. But that might not be enough where you are going, I had a college prof that had done geological research in death valley, he said that they each carried a 2.5 gallon water jug on back pack frames.

I have never put a cotton tube sock on a water bottle and wet it down to make the bottle cooler, but I have heard that some do that to take advantage of evaporative cooling. I use insulated bottles, so probably would not help me.

If you get dehydrated, do NOT get tempted to suddenly drink too much water, that can dilute the electrolytes in your blood stream and cause a problem. Best to not run out, instead work to stay hydrated without sudden large thirst quenches.

Exertion means more calories burned. Calories is a measure of heat generating capacity. Bottom line, take it easy and burn fewer calories.

The above comments about starting out early and quitting early are very good.

Do not forget the sunscreen. If you get a bit of sunburn, later days it will feel really terrible when you are in the sunlight. I have thinning spot without much hair on top of my head, I take my helmet off to apply sunscreen on my thin spot too.

Camping, when it can be too hot to use a sleeping bag, a sleeping bag liner is really nice.

If you have any long downhills and rim brakes, your tires on a hot day will be a lot hotter than they would on a cooler day. I have stopped to cool rims on downhills in the mountains.
Tourist in MSN is offline  
Old 06-24-15, 08:41 AM
  #11  
djb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Montreal Canada
Posts: 8,878
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1087 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 38 Times in 30 Posts
lots of really good suggestions here.
Bottom line is being very aware of taking in lots of luiquids, keeping on top of it. The times I've had to ride in 90s a lot, I've generally been lucky in that there have been towns and stores available to be able to go in, take advantage of air conditioning and buying some cold drinks, I find getting some cold drinks in really helps.
Taking shade breaks and even a nap in the hottest parts of the day has worked for me also.

I think to when I was younger, I figure Im smarter now and listen to my body more, and am much more careful of sunscreening well, drinking lots regularly and taking breaks more.

Doug--that's a cool idea (sic), I really like that. I've used cut up pieces of those blue mats to make protective stuff for laptops and camera stuff in the past, but it completely makes sense to use it for insulation, great idea.
Will store that one in the 'ol noggin for future use.
djb is offline  
Old 06-24-15, 08:44 AM
  #12  
timdow
Pie Smuggler
 
timdow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: San Diego
Posts: 309

Bikes: 2010 LHT (Blue), 2000 Jamis Aurora, 2005 Giant Ranier, 1998 Schwinn Moab (converted for commuting), 1994 Trek 1220

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Don't think this has been mentioned... it barely gets dark overnight in WA this time of year. This should make riding early in day easier, although if you are camping it also may be difficult to get enough sleep.

My suggestion, if possible for you is to change the plan and do the coast. This would be a very pleasant tour this time of year.
timdow is offline  
Old 06-24-15, 09:07 AM
  #13  
arctos
40 yrs bike touring
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Santa Barbara,CA.
Posts: 1,013

Bikes: Bruce Gordon Ti Rock N Road [1989], Fat Chance Mountain Tandem [1988]

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
In addition to the many good ideas already mentioned I carry a Chrome Dome aluminized umbrella to create a shady spot around me when no other shade is available. Also useful for brief rain showers. It weighs 8 oz.
For a more extended midday nap to avoid heat I carry a lightweight aluminzed tarp to create a larger shaded area. It reflects away a surprising amount of heat. I use bungies to attach it to the bike on one end and two stakes at the other end. It weighs 8oz. It is also the part of my shelter as the rain cover for the net tent I made for bug infested places on tour. Nice to be bug free on hot days and nights The net tent weighs 10 oz.

Attached Images
File Type: jpg
IMG_0255.jpg (100.2 KB, 24 views)
arctos is offline  
Old 06-24-15, 09:07 AM
  #14  
mijome07
Senior Member
 
mijome07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: So Cal
Posts: 1,556
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I love riding in hot weather. I have no choice... I live in a desert.
mijome07 is offline  
Old 06-24-15, 09:31 AM
  #15  
MMACH 5
Cycle Dallas
 
MMACH 5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Land of Gar, TX
Posts: 3,775

Bikes: Dulcinea--2017 Kona Rove & a few others

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 194 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times in 3 Posts
I rode from Dallas to Wichita Falls in July, several years back. The high temps recorded for the area by the weather service ranged from 104° to 106° F. In the direct sun, my odometer read 129° F. My iPhone shut down and displayed the warning attached.

All this to say that the days weren't too bad. As long as I kept moving, I generated my own breeze. I stayed hydrated and stopped for snowcones in several towns along the way.

The nights were a bit less pleasant. The low never got below 80° so I'd lay on my back until it was crazy sweaty, then lay on my side until it was soaking wet and then over to my stomach. I did this all night the first night. The second night, I was so exhausted from not sleeping the first, I slept and sweated in one spot all night.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
129F.jpg (20.0 KB, 13 views)
MMACH 5 is offline  
Old 06-24-15, 09:31 AM
  #16  
tarwheel 
Senior Member
 
tarwheel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 8,906

Bikes: Waterford RST-22, Bob Jackson World Tour, Ritchey Breakaway Cross, Soma Saga, De Bernardi SL, Specialized Sequoia

Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 194 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Get up early and get going while it's cooler. i have ridden many week-long tours in summer. When the weather gets really hot, we try to hit the road by 6 am each day. We finish most of our mileage by 11 am or so, stop for a nice lunch and then finish the remaining miles with time to cool down in the shade or swimming pool afterwards.

I don't normally drink a lot of sports drinks like Gatorade, but make an exception on long rides in hot weather. My legs have cramped up a few times on really hot days, and Gatorade seems to help prevent that.
tarwheel is offline  
Old 06-24-15, 09:38 AM
  #17  
MZilliox 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: S Oregon
Posts: 804

Bikes: Berthoud Randoneusse, Curt Goodrich steel road, Zanconato Minimax road, Jeff Lyon steel all road,

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
10 days in a row over 100 in the forecast here in southern oregon, i think my training is going to take a small dip this week, good luck out there!!!

Last edited by MZilliox; 06-24-15 at 09:48 AM.
MZilliox is offline  
Old 06-24-15, 09:40 AM
  #18  
Wilfred Laurier
Señor Member
 
Wilfred Laurier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 4,288
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 326 Post(s)
Liked 63 Times in 44 Posts
I used to like to include multiple swimming spots on my rides, but that might not be possible on a point-to-point tour in an area you are not familiar with.
Wilfred Laurier is offline  
Old 06-24-15, 09:55 AM
  #19  
fietsbob 
coprolite
 
fietsbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 41,928

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 188 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6833 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 214 Times in 178 Posts
Southern coast of Norway has some ice age carved pools with cool fresh water in them .
fietsbob is offline  
Old 06-24-15, 07:17 PM
  #20  
andrewclaus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Golden, CO
Posts: 1,520

Bikes: 2016 Fuji Tread

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 218 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 15 Times in 13 Posts
My heat wave experience (in the US Midwest in 2012) was tolerable because there was a steady SW breeze, all day and all night. I pitched my tent to take advantage of the breeze which allowed me to sleep when the temp was 95F at sunset and 75F at sunrise (with 75F dewpoint! My glasses and mirror would fog up on descents into creek valleys--it was horrible). I would wake at dawn and immediately begin riding, trying to get 40 miles by 10 am when the 105F humid heat got intolerable. Then I'd find shade and water if A/C was unavailable. When possible I'd wait out the next six hours in town, between the library and diners, then get cycling as the shadows lengthened and could often get another 60 miles by dark. 100+ miles per day in 100+ heat for a little over a week--tough going but survivable.

I found myself adding salt to salty food like french fries--I really needed the extra salt and you might need to pay attention to that as well. Hyponatremia can be fatal.
andrewclaus is offline  
Old 06-24-15, 08:13 PM
  #21  
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 36,049

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 121 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4342 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
One trick is to pack lights and ride in the predawn, or at least at dawn. That will protect you from the worst of the heat. If you only get 3/4 of your planned day in before it gets brutal, find a cool place to spend mid day, and put in the last two hours at dusk.

Or if you do ride through heat, learn to pace yourself and ride at speeds where you get decent breeze to help stay cooler (less hot), yet aren't working to where you get overheated. (nothing's perfect here, just keep it in mind and do the best you can).

As other noted, stay hydrated, but make sure to maintain your electrolytes lest you cramp up (better outcome) or start becoming hyponatremic (worse possibility). Also, get some hot riding in, even maybe to the extent of overdoing it a bit, so you can learn what going too far feels like.

BTW- if you, like me, are used to high humidity when it's hot, be aware that dry heat is very different. I suffered extreme water loss riding in Nevada one year. It was hot and obviously dry, but I never felt hot at all, since my sweat was cooling me so effectively. Problem is that it worked so well, that I never got my usual cues, such as a hot flush face, sweaty neck and salt running own into my eyes. So, I had no idea how fast I was draining my fluid reserve, and got back, with a salt crusted face, and a few pounds of water low. It didn't hit me hard until later on, then it took me 2 day to get fluids back into balance.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline  
Old 06-24-15, 09:06 PM
  #22  
djb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Montreal Canada
Posts: 8,878
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1087 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 38 Times in 30 Posts
I have found that Gatorade powder is great when it's really hot, being able to mix it diluted is nice and it really is inexpensive. I've used nalgenes to carry it in, of even zip locks.
Just always rinse bike bottles really well to avoid growing stuff in the little crevices etc.
djb is offline  
Old 06-25-15, 03:36 AM
  #23  
jargo432
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: North Texas
Posts: 277

Bikes: Surly Disc Trucker, Ogre, Steamroller

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I was a paratrooper in Panama (1/508) and the first thing they teach you is how to deal with the heat.

People have to understand that it takes time for your body to absorb water. If you find yourself thirsty it's too late. The real trick is to drink a couple of glasses (or more) of water the night before, then start drinking early and keep at it all day long. It's O K to have a Gatoraid now and then but never drink just Gatoraid, It'll really mess up you kidneys. (been there, done that) Another important thing is acclimation. If your touring and you sleep in hotels in the A C, your body can't adjust. Once your in the heat, stay in the heat. And lastly don't push too hard. Take plenty of breaks, and oh yeah.... drink drink drink.
jargo432 is offline  
Old 06-25-15, 04:23 AM
  #24  
imi
aka Timi
 
imi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Posts: 2,864

Bikes: Bob Jackson World Tour (touring) and a Miyata 100 (commuting)

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Not much to add, but keep your head covered and wear whatever clothing or sun lotion you need to not get sunburnt.
imi is offline  
Old 06-25-15, 06:27 AM
  #25  
andrewclaus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Golden, CO
Posts: 1,520

Bikes: 2016 Fuji Tread

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 218 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 15 Times in 13 Posts
Originally Posted by jargo432 View Post
...It's O K to have a Gatoraid now and then but never drink just Gatoraid, It'll really mess up you kidneys. (been there, done that)...
Thanks for adding that. It'll also mess with your bowels. When I was a wildland firefighter, sometimes Gatorade was the first thing to come up the line. If I drank one fast, I'd get explosive flatulence (which can be funny on a fire line, maybe not cycling, especially on a tandem).

Eating well and sometimes adding a little salt has always worked for me. When I crave salt and start licking the bag the chips come it, I'm low.
andrewclaus is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.