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Best Hub and Rim Combo for Touring

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Best Hub and Rim Combo for Touring

Old 10-15-15, 09:54 PM
  #51  
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What about the Riv Silver hubs for a lower price point. Look nice, more mystery metal for those who like to roll the dice on quality. I don't like the front 32 aspect, but it would be fine on a 26, and is probably all right on just about anything.

http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/hu-1.htm
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Old 10-15-15, 11:07 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by MassiveD View Post
It's an opinion, who said I was "basing" it on anything. .
The gods of logic and reasoning said opinions must be based on something.

I haven't said anything in this thread is overpriced crap.

As for the quill stem on their Camper(I assume this is what you are referring to)...a quill stem on a bike means the company is peddling cheap crap? Seems like a stretch to me. All my bikes are threaded. Love em. Easy to adjust the height. A pop top stem then also allow for easy bar install. What's not to love?
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Old 10-16-15, 09:23 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by MassiveD View Post
There are lots of reports of rim failures from what I can see. Failure though rarely means collapse as a spoke failure might mean, but as far as cracks and sidewall blowouts, you will see many reports. These failures are sometimes in newish gear, but rims are consumables also, so they can fail as a normal course of their use also. Hubs and spokes are eternal.
I don't see a lot of posts about rim failure. There are some but not nearly as many as about spokes failing. That said, you bring up a perfect point about the rim. If the rim is what matters to wheel strength, then why wouldn't a rim failure be more likely to result in a catastrophic failure of the wheel? Although one spoke probably won't mean that the wheel will collapse the wheel as a whole is more severely compromised when a spoke fails than when the rare rim might fail. This says to me that the spokes are the weak link in the system and, therefore, responsible for the strength of the wheel.

Originally Posted by MassiveD View Post
I do agree buying fatter heavier is not a good idea, but that isn't really the end of it, there are many different manufacturers out there while you are creaming a few proven brands, and I wouldn't get too excited about which from among those, but I only accept a few from the whole universe. Seems to me your short list of rims, spokes, and hubs are all about as long.
I'm not sure where you are going with this nor what your objection is. I put out a few examples of rims and hubs but I didn't mean it to be a comprehensive list. There are lots of rims out there that could be used for building a good touring wheel. Like I said originally, which one really doesn't matter all that much. Give the choice I would pick an off-center drilled rim over a regular rim to get the advantage of less dish but there are a few other OC rims out there as well. As long as the rim has 36 holes or more, it will make a good touring rim.

Originally Posted by MassiveD View Post
"Spokes, on the other hand, can be a very common place for failure and it only takes a couple of spokes breaking to absolutely ruin a wheel."

Sure, but they don't break if the wheel is properly built even for very heavy riders like myself. If they broke, then the maker either selected the wrong components or built the wheel wrong. Jobst also says there is a small chance of a bad spoke, they do occur and need to be culled, while many people see a breakage as condemning the whole wheel and they change the whole wheel, thereby exposing themselves to new variables, and a new winnowing process. There is just no way one is having multiple spoke failures on a well built wheel. While I am all for 40 spoke wheels there are experimental wheels that were heavily toured at 20 spokes, and they did not fail. A proper 36 spoke wheel should never fail in the spokes, other than as mentioned.
Maybe they shouldn't break but even Brandt has discussed spoke fatigue in depth in Bicycle Wheel (starting on page 30). Spoke can and do fatigue. They don't last forever and the rear (see page 33) is even more susceptible to fatigue because of the uneven tension on the rear spokes due to the way that they have to be constructed. Adding more load increases the fatigue.

As for the 20 spoke wheel, how about a link an article about them.


Originally Posted by MassiveD View Post
I don't really see the point of toolless disassembly, smacks of crap made easy to fix. The bearings are supposed to be good for 50K miles. Last time I looked at Phil instructions it said one needed a press, but I hear lots of people say they are roadside, so I am confused. If I wanted easy service I would go Shimano or DT.
That's an odd attitude to take. Being able to put together something like a hub that can be easily disassembled with few tools or no tools says to me clever engineering and really isn't what I would call a hallmark of "crap". Yes, it's easy to fix but, in my experience, "crap" isn't easy to fix. It's not fixable at all.

Phil Wood hubs, by the way, are very easy to change bearings. No press or special tool...unlike DT and/or Chris King...is needed to take out the bearings. The one time I took apart my rear Phil, the bearings slipped right out without tools or presses. I've worked with Shimano and I've looked at how DT hubs are serviced and I wouldn't call either "easy". DT is a little easier than Shimano but, then, I consider the cup and cone system to be about the worst possible system for service.

Originally Posted by MassiveD View Post
Last I looked you could get any drilling you want in DT, that may have changed, don't know. 40s and 48s. I am not recommending King or Campy, but some big names like them and I would have thought on average they had better track records than VO. How many VO hubs have been sold, or seriously campaigned?
The only 36 or 40 hole hubs that I can find on DT's website are tandem disc hubs.

Originally Posted by MassiveD View Post
I don't say (or shouldn't) that rims are stronger, though I guess they are, they are orders of magnitude stiffer. The deeper sections are a change at the third power, and strength at the second.
Some rims rims have deeper sections but certainly not all rims are being made that way. But I really don't that too many people are going to choose a Velocity Chukker or Deep V for touring. For one, they are boat anchors and secondly, finding replacement tubes with stems long enough in the middle of nowhere might be a challenge. And the discussion is about a touring wheels where strength is more important than stiffness.


Originally Posted by MassiveD View Post
Well as you know, it was rarer back in the day to use a spoke tension meter. A lot of guys thought they knew what was happening. Jobst said you needed to build tension until the rim deformed, them back off. I wrote him a few years back (he always said there was nothing new, and he didn't need to revise his book) and asked how I was supposed to do that with the rims of today, and their deep sections, That would put huge stress on the eyelets and probably if they tacoed, it might even be dangerous. He sorta sighed in prose and said, just dial in the numbers the factory suggests. Those numbers are not that high for velocity. Jobst MA2 world was based on the highest manageable spoke tension, that is not the current world, which is maybe why high end rims do not have double eyelets these days. If the rims were twice as deep as they currently are, and made of steel, spoke tension would be of little importance to their durability. That is what did happen to a lessor degree.
My problem is that I can't find anything value for tension that is "factory suggested". That data has eluded me for a very long time.

You've brought up the Mavic MA2 as an example a couple of times. Personally, I found the MA2 to be about the worst rim I've ever used just for general riding. I made a few wheels with that rim and they all cracked at the eyelet which says to me that the spoke tension has to be pretty low to avoid breaking the rim.

Originally Posted by MassiveD View Post
I think you are arguing my case, I am saying rims break, you are saying they don't mater.
I'm saying that they don't matter for wheel strength. They don't really break all that often.

Originally Posted by MassiveD View Post
Obviously gross spoke failure is going to drop the whole bike. But it should never happen. The spoke is a keystone component. But spokes are also steel, if they are stress relieved, there aren't any normal course loads that should break them. I guess the word is that spoke failure can be "catastrophic", but that is different from the part itself being weak.

If a few spokes break, they should be replaced and one should carry on. The wheel is fine if it was well built, at least the bad spokes have been culled. If the wheel was not properly built and eventually all the spokes are going to fail, that is a different mater. But too many people have your view that a bad spoke or two in a well built wheel is a calamity for the wheel.
My turn: You are arguing my case now. "The spoke is the keystone component" says that it is the most important part of the wheel when it comes to strength. I would also argue that, given what Brandt says in his book, spokes do and will fatigue. It may take a while but they can fatigue.

The problem with replacing "a few spokes" if they break is that the other spokes have been overloaded taking up the load from the broken one. Generally speaking, people who replace more than 3 or 4 spokes at any one time are going to be replacing more often down the road. They are just going to end up chasing broken spokes around the wheel. Yes, broken spokes are often the fault of the build but not always.
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Old 10-16-15, 09:35 AM
  #54  
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Just my take but I consider hubs as more or less disposable, though with just a little care, even a Shimano Tiagra hub will last for many years. I can buy 16 Tiagra rear hubs for the price of one Phil rear hub. If I can get at least 4-5 years use out of a hub, which I'm sure I can, then I would need to be riding 80 years to break even.

As to butted spokes, yea I use them most of the time, but you're probably tired of hearing me point out how many thousands of Trek, Specialized, Giant mountain bikes go out the door each year with straight 14 gauge spokes and often with far less than 36 spokes these days, have 200+ lb kids abusing the heck out them all day long and spoke breakage isn't a regular issue.

With rims, stick to any of the half dozen that always get mentioned and you'll be fine, I only hope you get to tour long enough to wear a couple sets out.
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Old 10-16-15, 09:56 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by robow View Post
Just my take but I consider hubs as more or less disposable, though with just a little care, even a Shimano Tiagra hub will last for many years. I can buy 16 Tiagra rear hubs for the price of one Phil rear hub. If I can get at least 4-5 years use out of a hub, which I'm sure I can, then I would need to be riding 80 years to break even.

As to butted spokes, yea I use them most of the time, but you're probably tired of hearing me point out how many thousands of Trek, Specialized, Giant mountain bikes go out the door each year with straight 14 gauge spokes and often with far less than 36 spokes these days, have 200+ lb kids abusing the heck out them all day long and spoke breakage isn't a regular issue.

With rims, stick to any of the half dozen that always get mentioned and you'll be fine, I only hope you get to tour long enough to wear a couple sets out.
A hub may be disposable at home base, but I would hope I don't have to build a new wheel on the field since a good wheel can't really come out without the proper tools such as tensionmeter.
A good hub is bought so that a failure does not happen. The better (non Shimano) bubs are often just cartridge bearing carriers so if one fails you pop it out and put a new one in. This way the hub can potentially be eternal. A cup and cone hub will wear down eventually.
Also, I did not take a Shimano rear hub because their cracking freehub epidemic. It's too big a risk. Would have liked a hope front hub but with so few moving parts as is in the front hub it's difficult to justify the cost
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Old 10-16-15, 10:01 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by robow View Post
Just my take but I consider hubs as more or less disposable, though with just a little care, even a Shimano Tiagra hub will last for many years. I can buy 16 Tiagra rear hubs for the price of one Phil rear hub. If I can get at least 4-5 years use out of a hub, which I'm sure I can, then I would need to be riding 80 years to break even.
This also means you'll be rebuilding your wheels before every tour, since there's no guarantee your Tiagra hub will survive to the end, as it is disposable.... I prefer a long-lived, high-quality hub. it's one of the places on my bike I always​ invest.
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Old 10-16-15, 10:24 AM
  #57  
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Spokes, rims, hubs have all been discussed. But not much on nipples. I switched to Sapim nipples on my last set of wheels, quite happy with them. Veganbikes in post 19 also cited them, above.

Originally Posted by robow View Post
Just my take but I consider hubs as more or less disposable, though with just a little care, even a Shimano Tiagra hub will last for many years. I can buy 16 Tiagra rear hubs for the price of one Phil rear hub. If I can get at least 4-5 years use out of a hub, which I'm sure I can, then I would need to be riding 80 years to break even.
...
That would be be more logical if you could wear out a hub and with a wrench or two swap out hubs in a couple minutes like swapping out a worn out cable or brake pad. But changing a hub means re-spoking the wheel. Most people would do that with new spokes, the spokes probably cost more than the hub, etc.
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Old 10-16-15, 10:40 AM
  #58  
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As I said , In the Busy summer season in small town Bike shops, the replacement wheel
wont be custom hand made for you, while you wait.

So, Hope you don't have a rim damaging Accident.

Good Luck.
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Old 10-16-15, 11:13 AM
  #59  
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Has anyone actually worn out a hub that has been properly maintained? If you did what part of the hub failed? I've been riding for a long time, and replaced several wheels, but none for hub failure.

Last edited by Doug64; 10-16-15 at 11:19 AM.
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Old 10-16-15, 12:49 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by Doug64 View Post
Has anyone actually worn out a hub that has been properly maintained? If you did what part of the hub failed? I've been riding for a long time, and replaced several wheels, but none for hub failure.
I'm with you Doug, it's never been a routine problem of having to change out worn or failed hubs for me in a lifetime of cycling. A Shimano XT or LX will go a long long time and changing out these hubs before each tour seems silly to me. It's a darn good thing I never realized I needed a White or a Wood hub to tour successfully all these years or else I would have missed out on all those thousands of miles and smiles with my worthless Shimano hubs.

Btw, "Shimano cracking free hub epidemic" seems a bit exaggerated doesn't it?
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Old 10-16-15, 01:00 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by MassiveD View Post
The problem with Paul stuff is it's here, it's there it's gone. If I still had silly money to spend I would outfit a whole touring bike in Paul stuff, hubs dérailleurs, brakes, post, levers, etc... Just for the fun of having an american made groupo, but the stuff doesn't hang around. But in the practical world, he cuts stuff out too often.
He is operating with a small staff and trying to keep quality high. The derailleur he made was maybe not ready for primetime and so cutting that made some sense (plus it probably cost more to make than it would sell for). I think his stuff is still worth it and I think with the internet and all the bike websites like the Radavist, he has a good market and probably will be dropping less. But with a smaller staff and not a whole lot of space it is hard to do everything and keep moving forward.
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Old 10-16-15, 01:05 PM
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The issue I have seen with Shutter Precision is that they generally are quite narrow and compact so the flanges are a little too close together and I think that doesn't build as good of a wheel. The quality doesn't seem to be bad for the price for sure but the width especially the disc version is super narrow. I have a friend who has built 4 Dynamo wheels (for himself) two with SP and two with SON and he prefers the SON and was agreeing on the width issues of the SP but still would buy again.
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Old 10-16-15, 02:34 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
The gods of logic and reasoning said opinions must be based on something.
I think you are moving from logic to sophistry. There is nothing unusual about opinions that come from preferences, or taste or whatever. If you just want to spin wheels in discussion, they may be based on "something", but I thought you had more substance in mind, as your critique of my lack of experience with the product suggested. We all dismiss the majority of products available in the marketplace and are not required to give a doctoral dissertation with sources as to why. There are great opportunities available to people who want to import Chinese copies of various products. I don't feel particular compromised for tarring some of this stuff as cheap crap in a discussion of Rohloff, Phil, DT, White, etc...

I haven't said anything in this thread is overpriced crap.
That's OK, I fixed it for you.

As for the quill stem on their Camper(I assume this is what you are referring to)...a quill stem on a bike means the company is peddling cheap crap? Seems like a stretch to me. All my bikes are threaded. Love em. Easy to adjust the height. A pop top stem then also allow for easy bar install. What's not to love?
I have nothing against quills, the only bike I am running at the moment is an old Nishiki with a quill stem. The crap part refers to cheap asian knock off of a classic european format that uses a quill stem, in my estimation, only because of the usual "it's retro logic". My point clearly stated was that they are driven by cheaply produced suggestions of style and not substance, or probably both, but they lose me with the former. I didn't say nor do I believe that a quill is a worse system, though both have their advantages. My conclusion is that for them cost trumps craftsmanship, and style trumps substance, which is why they are successful. In a discussion of the ultimate, they aren't the ultimate. That looks, like Mariposa, or Gordon, or Phil Wood. I'm actually mildly shocked that someone would choose them as the 3rd touring hub in excellence, and he may be right though I didn't hear what I would need to share that opinion.
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Old 10-16-15, 02:46 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by veganbikes View Post
He is operating with a small staff and trying to keep quality high. The derailleur he made was maybe not ready for primetime and so cutting that made some sense (plus it probably cost more to make than it would sell for). I think his stuff is still worth it and I think with the internet and all the bike websites like the Radavist, he has a good market and probably will be dropping less. But with a smaller staff and not a whole lot of space it is hard to do everything and keep moving forward.
Actually, I don't know if I was clear, I love their stuff, and am trying to get as much as I can on my bike. I have this project to build an all US origin in parts, touring bike. Or maybe sorta groupo parts. I have dirt drops for instance, but they aren't built in the US, but bars weren't in a groupo. I have US cranks, brakes, hubs. Paul has a lot of cool little parts.

I guess I was rolling off the fact that a part that was available new all over the place, that I never suspected had been discontinued, has now just disappeared as I was planing to buy it. I am bidding for a damaged version on ebay. In the recommendation on hubs above, they aren't even being made, though there was some suggestion on the Paul website that the withdrawn hub was being redesigned, and some hub would return.
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Old 10-16-15, 02:52 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by MassiveD View Post
What about the Riv Silver hubs for a lower price point. Look nice, more mystery metal for those who like to roll the dice on quality. I don't like the front 32 aspect, but it would be fine on a 26, and is probably all right on just about anything.

SILVER Hub 36H rear; 32H front
Looks interesting
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Old 10-16-15, 03:10 PM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by robow View Post
I'm with you Doug, it's never been a routine problem of having to change out worn or failed hubs for me in a lifetime of cycling. A Shimano XT or LX will go a long long time and changing out these hubs before each tour seems silly to me.
I would never do that, for one thing you could buy the Phil hubs before you replaced too many wheels. My thing is assuming, you don't live in a box, we are talking about 100 + dollars upcharge or less for the front hub, and certainly more, though variable for the rear. A lot of people buy that cheap experimental bike, like a Windsor, maybe. Then they upgrade to the normal level, like an LHT with basic solid components. Seen lots of threads of that type. Or maybe they recondition an MTB, then get an LHT. You could have bought the LHT with some mega parts for starters. Lots of people buy many bikes, mostly the same, just to see what some small variation is like. They are spending the same money, they just never get out of the bargain rack. I'd just rather get all the good parts for starters.

It's arguable, as Jobst Brandt did I believe, that the Shimano hubs are actually better. There is ample reason to believe that cold forged parts and loose bearing are a better system than turned billet and sealed bearings. The last Shimano set I bought were LX, and they were fine. Except they were really ugly, and when I went to repack them after a very wet tour it turned out one of the labyrinth seals under the boot was badly distorted, and the hub had filled with water. And then there is the shell thing. Plus Shimano is always changing stuff, never to make it better for tourists, and I really don't have a comfort level with their direction. Phil sells some of the same stuff they were selling 40 years ago, the Shimano is always in flux.

It's a darn good thing I never realized I needed a White or a Wood hub to tour successfully all these years or else I would have missed out on all those thousands of miles and smiles with my worthless Shimano hubs.
You probably don't need them, but people who buy them often stick with them rather than running around buying 5 other LX level bikes, I see that so often. There are people who never feel the need to buy a bike after they get a basic one, but a lot of people will spend a ton of money on a variety of bikes. Buy the best first and you have nowhere to go, and it's all cheap stuff anyway. Meanwhile they are prettier to look at.

Ray Jardine has done some large tours on bikes, including ones he bought at Walmart. My wife used to fly into towns and go to Goodwill and pick up a clunker then tour on it the whole summer. Most people here wouldn't stoop to that. Shimano is the overpriced luxury brand to some. I'm just no longer interested in anything Shimano has to sell. People can find their own level.

Last edited by MassiveD; 10-16-15 at 03:54 PM.
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Old 10-16-15, 03:27 PM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by Doug64 View Post
Has anyone actually worn out a hub that has been properly maintained? If you did what part of the hub failed? I've been riding for a long time, and replaced several wheels, but none for hub failure.
I've pitted many cones, especially in the early days of my bicycling (around 1977) when the seals were...well...there were no seals. My first mountain bike actually had a cartridge bearing hub which lasted for a long time until it was replaced with a freehub. Frankly because I'm a tinkerer and upgrader, I seldom keep a set of wheels long enough to wear out the bearings.

I do volunteer at my local co-op and I see a lot of pitted cones, a few cracked flanges, a few pitted cups and even a few cups that have completely disintegrated.
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Old 10-16-15, 03:45 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
I've pitted many cones, especially in the early days of my bicycling (around 1977) when the seals were...well...there were no seals. My first mountain bike actually had a cartridge bearing hub which lasted for a long time until it was replaced with a freehub. Frankly because I'm a tinkerer and upgrader, I seldom keep a set of wheels long enough to wear out the bearings.

I do volunteer at my local co-op and I see a lot of pitted cones, a few cracked flanges, a few pitted cups and even a few cups that have completely disintegrated.
I hear you, but I'm talking about properly maintained hubs. It is rare to get pitted cones or races and the other damage you describe on hubs that have received good care. I have worked on a lot of kid's bikes, and it amazes me sometimes how their chains even bend or that their wheels can actually rotate. Sure, a dry hub will get damaged pretty fast, but that is not the usual case.

However, I do use Phil Wood grease, does that count
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Old 10-16-15, 03:54 PM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by robow View Post
I'm with you Doug, it's never been a routine problem of having to change out worn or failed hubs for me in a lifetime of cycling. A Shimano XT or LX will go a long long time and changing out these hubs before each tour seems silly to me. It's a darn good thing I never realized I needed a White or a Wood hub to tour successfully all these years or else I would have missed out on all those thousands of miles and smiles with my worthless Shimano hubs.
Go read my post again. I never said that anyone "needed" a Phil Wood or White Industries hub. I said, quite specifically, " If money is no object, go with a pair of Phil Woods." I also gave some other options. There are very good reasons to go with a Phil Wood hub. They require almost zero maintenance. If you find yourself with a broken spoke on the side of the road, you don't need a cassette removal tool nor a chainwhip to remove the cassette and get at the spokes for replacement. The whole cassette comes out when you remove the end caps. The Velo Orange hubs share that feature.

If you do have to replace the bearings, there's not fiddly adjustments needed nor special thin wrenches...you need at least two wrenches to adjust a cup and cone and, in some instances, you need a third one for the front... to adjust the cones. A 5 mm allen wrench in the case of the Phils and nothing is the case of the Velo Orange are all that is needed. The bearings pop out and pop in without much effort and they don't need any adjustment.


Shimano has as much of a history of dropping products or just changing products to make everyone change their components as someone like Paul's does. They are even worse in lot of respects because Shimano does little to support their products in the out years. Try finding a cone for a 7 speed Shimano XT sometime. They changed the diameter of their axles by an oddly tiny amount and modern cones won't fit.

I'll admit that the Shimano stuff is good. You'll likely be problem free for many thousands of miles. But there is something to be said for supporting small makers like Phil Woods and White Industries who make beautiful products in the US. When everything is made by Shimano, there is no innovation and little style. Personally, I'd rather not have all my money going to some giant corporation. Too much of it already goes there.
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Old 10-16-15, 03:57 PM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by Doug64 View Post
I hear you, but I'm talking about properly maintained hubs. It is rare to get pitted cones or races and the other damage you describe on hubs that have received good care. I have worked on a lot of kid's bikes, and it amazes me sometimes how their chains even bend or that their wheels can actually rotate. Sure, a dry hub will get damaged pretty fast, but that is not the usual case.

However, I do use Phil Wood grease, does that count
Pitted cones before hubs had the contact seals were common even with regular maintenance. I've seen them pitted in everything from nicely packed hubs to dry hubs.
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Old 10-16-15, 04:04 PM
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Ok, I can see how that would be useful relative to spokes. It is one of my criteria that I will spend significant bucks to get everything on the bike possible adjustable with a few keys.

Shimano is so bad compared to Paul I won't deal with them. When I hear people like yourself who know about this stuff talking about their stuff some changes they have made will come up, and I will think I am glad I didn't buy that one. I just am not interested in figuring out all the options and what they are still making that holds up and I hate where they are going with wheel build. My quibble on Paul is they have discontinued a lot of stuff I wanted over the years, and when it is gone it often doesn't come back. Shimano keeps introducing new versions, one can buy them, I just don't care to.
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Old 10-16-15, 04:32 PM
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By the way, one thing I don't like about, say, the White hub, but it applies equally to many others is, I believe the version I have is good for 8 9 and 10 cassettes, and they are now good for 9, 10, and 11. Personally 8 is as far as I want to go, because I don't like the chains from 9 and on up. But I would run a 9, and may do that. But both Phil and White are now doing 11s. So if you want to run a low number cassette, you are being force into the wheel building chaos of a high number race oriented system. The wheel build might go better if I found an original 8 only Shimano on Ebay. I have to say the rear white hub is a bit scary looking. This is where the Phil Freewheel system shines, or should. But I guess most people want the 11s.

On the other hand, that would be a good reason to buy a super hub of your preferred production year since you should be able to run it for life, but I guess I waited too long.
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Old 10-16-15, 05:29 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
The flames will start shortly but...

Hub: Doesn't matter

Rim: Doesn't matter

Spokes: They aren't an afterthought and they matter...a lot!

Let's get the first two items out of the way. If money is no object, go with a pair of Phil Woods. The amount of time you don't spend cleaning and repacking and futzing with them is just about worth the serious coin you'll spend on them. Second choice (if money is a bit of an object but not too much), White Industries. Not as easy to fix in the field but they are super nice hubs. Third choice: Velo Orange has some really nice hubs for pretty cheap. Final choice (personally): anything with a cup and cone like Shimano. There's nothing wrong with Shimano hubs but I just find fiddling with cups and cones on a yearly or biyearly basis to be something that I'd rather not do.

For rims, it really, honestly, absolutely doesn't matter. There is no real difference between a Velocity Dyad, Velocity A23 or a Mavic A719. Of those 3, I'd probably go with the A23 and save a bit of weight. The rim is just along for the ride. It's a convenient place to hang a tire and so thing for the spokes to attach to. Because of the dynamics of the wheel, a super heavy rim is just super heavy. It really isn't "stronger". It may resist deflection a tiny bit but not enough to make much of a difference. The rim is going to squish as it hits the bottom of the rotation and the spoke is going to unload. More weight really isn't going to change that much.

I would suggest getting an off-center (OC) rim for the rear. The OC rim allows for a better spoke angle on the driveside and results in a stronger, more symmetrically loaded wheel. The Velocity A23 OC is both a good example and a good choice. None of the other "touring" choices from Velocity offer off-center. Saving 100 grams per wheel is just a bonus.

Finally, there's the spokes. They do the heavy lifting. They take all the abuse of riding and cornering and potholes. Most people are going to go with just any old spoke. That's the wrong way to approach a truly strong wheel. Start with the spokes. For touring (or heavy riders or heavy touring riders), a triple butted spoke with a 2.3/1.8/2.0mm profile is best. The thicker head makes for a spoke that has about 40% resistance to breakage...i.e. stronger... than a straight gauge spoke. The 2.3mm head fits more snugly in the hub and allows for less movement as the spoke is unloaded and loaded during the rotational cycle as well.

DT Alpine III are very good spokes but expect to pay $2 per spoke if you can find them by the each. More often you'll have to buy an entire box of 72 for a 36 spoke wheel which makes them closer to $4 per spoke unless you are making two of the same wheel. Sapim makes the Strong and Force spokes which are cheaper. The Strong has a thick head and straight body (2.3/2.0mm) while the Force is a triple butted spoke. Wheelsmith makes the DH13 which is the same as the Sapim Strong. My current favorite spoke is the Pillar PSR TB2018. You can get them from Bdop cycling for about $0.90 each which is on par with the cost of a single butted spoke. They don't come with nipples which adds a couple of pennies per spoke but they are excellent spokes. I'd use brass nipples just because they are easier to build with. If you want colored nipples, Pillar makes colored brass ones that you can find on Fleabay.

All of my wheels...and I mean all...from mountain bike to road bike to touring bike to commute are built this way. I build with pretty good hubs (Phils, Whites, a Paul), damned good spokes and light weight rims. I don't baby my wheels either. My current touring wheels (Phil FSC hub/Alpine III spokes/Dyad rims) have about 10,000 trouble free touring miles on them and my commuter bike with a very similar wheel set has about 15,000 miles on them. I simply don't worry about wheels anymore.
Question; There is a difference between the Mavic A719 and the Velocity rims you mentioned. The Velocity rims have no eyelets while the Mavic rim has eyelets that extend through both walls of the rim. It seems to me that the stress from the spokes is distributed across the rim better with the Mavic design?
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Old 10-16-15, 05:33 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by Doug64 View Post
Has anyone actually worn out a hub that has been properly maintained? If you did what part of the hub failed? I've been riding for a long time, and replaced several wheels, but none for hub failure.
I have a customer who had a Shimano XT freehub body crack. I had an XT hub on one of my bikes which just started freewheeling, in both directions, one day. The pawls in the freehub body had all sheared off. We are both now running White Industries.
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Old 10-16-15, 09:10 PM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
Go read my post again. I never said that anyone "needed" a Phil Wood or White Industries hub. I said, quite specifically, " If money is no object, go with a pair of Phil Woods."
I did read your posts (with respect as I often do) and I couldn't agree more with you. My statement was not so directed at any one individual but in general as to how these "hub wars" often turn. For the person reading this and/or for future searches as to which hubs to consider, they will often come away with the idea that one can't begin to think of touring on decent basic well maintained Shimano hub or lest they find themselves stuck in the middle of nowhere stranded, but if only they had dropped $475 on that Phil Wood rear hub, that all would have been blue skies. The OP asked for the best and the best names came out, it just seems that a sense of balance was needed and that is what I intended.

Last edited by robow; 10-17-15 at 01:54 PM.
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