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Best Hub and Rim Combo for Touring

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Best Hub and Rim Combo for Touring

Old 10-16-15, 09:38 PM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by Bike Hermit View Post
Question; There is a difference between the Mavic A719 and the Velocity rims you mentioned. The Velocity rims have no eyelets while the Mavic rim has eyelets that extend through both walls of the rim. It seems to me that the stress from the spokes is distributed across the rim better with the Mavic design?
Also 80 grams heavier. Not really sure why, but a lot of shops and individuals seem to prefer the Velocity Dyads, though there were recent rumours of a bad batch that seems to have hurt them.

Earlier on I broached the idea that spoke tension was not as high, it sounds reasonable, but not sure about the facts. There has to be some reason why the whole double eyelet thing seems to have been set aside, and I think it is because the rims are stiffer and less dependant of high spoke tension and are doing more of the work and the spokes are under less tension, but presumably technical people know whether that is true.

700c Touring & Tandem Rims

Here he deals with the no eyelet thing:

Velocity Rims from Peter White Cycles
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Old 10-17-15, 03:00 AM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by MassiveD View Post
Actually, I don't know if I was clear, I love their stuff, and am trying to get as much as I can on my bike. I have this project to build an all US origin in parts, touring bike. Or maybe sorta groupo parts. I have dirt drops for instance, but they aren't built in the US, but bars weren't in a groupo. I have US cranks, brakes, hubs. Paul has a lot of cool little parts.

I guess I was rolling off the fact that a part that was available new all over the place, that I never suspected had been discontinued, has now just disappeared as I was planing to buy it. I am bidding for a damaged version on ebay. In the recommendation on hubs above, they aren't even being made, though there was some suggestion on the Paul website that the withdrawn hub was being redesigned, and some hub would return.
Ah gotcha. I think it might be a little harder to get all MUSA but you can probably get quality handmade non-sweatshop stuff like Nitto or Hope or something like that. That would be what I would go for.
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Old 10-17-15, 05:11 AM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by Doug64 View Post
Has anyone actually worn out a hub that has been properly maintained? If you did what part of the hub failed? I've been riding for a long time, and replaced several wheels, but none for hub failure.
I've broken Hopes and Deores. Hope failed at the axle, Deore cracked a flange.

I'm a Clydesdale, ex powerlifter, not the usual cyclist. YMMV.

Now I'm only DT Swiss and King.
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Old 10-17-15, 10:01 AM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by MassiveD View Post
Also 80 grams heavier. Not really sure why, but a lot of shops and individuals seem to prefer the Velocity Dyads, though there were recent rumours of a bad batch that seems to have hurt them.

Earlier on I broached the idea that spoke tension was not as high, it sounds reasonable, but not sure about the facts. There has to be some reason why the whole double eyelet thing seems to have been set aside, and I think it is because the rims are stiffer and less dependant of high spoke tension and are doing more of the work and the spokes are under less tension, but presumably technical people know whether that is true.

700c Touring & Tandem Rims

Here he deals with the no eyelet thing:

Velocity Rims from Peter White Cycles

Chad, in the OP said he wanted recommendations for bomb proof wheels, not light wheels.
Jobst Brandt R.I.P. has to be invoked in any discussion about wheels. In The Bicycle Wheel he talks about good hollow cross section rims that use steel sockets spanning both walls of the rim to distribute spoke loads to both walls of the rim. He goes on to say that rims without eyelets often crack around the spoke holes. One can't build a good wheel without the proper spoke tension since that is one of the reasons spokes break at the j-bend. That said, I have close to 10,000 miles on a set of wheels with Velocity AeroHead rims with no issues. Velocity beef up the thickness of the material in the rim wall where the spokes bed in order to help distribute the spoke load. The other reasons I like eyelets are; the steel eyelet resists galling of the rim by the nipples and the shape of the eyelet creates a little cradle for the head of the nipple. Velocity and Mavic make the best rims for wheel building in my opinion. That is based on the ease with which they true up when bringing the spokes up to tension- to me that indicates very good quality control

( I just found out that, when not logged in the word "recommendations" becomes a hyperlink and links to a Pizza Hut ad. Weird.

Last edited by Bike Hermit; 10-17-15 at 10:25 AM. Reason: addendum
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Old 10-17-15, 11:05 AM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by Bike Hermit View Post
Question; There is a difference between the Mavic A719 and the Velocity rims you mentioned. The Velocity rims have no eyelets while the Mavic rim has eyelets that extend through both walls of the rim. It seems to me that the stress from the spokes is distributed across the rim better with the Mavic design?
Spoke holes on the aero-style Dyad and similar A23 rims are located at a 90 degree rounded apex. It's impractical to rivet an eyelet into these rims due to curvature at the hole.

Google and you will find reputable wheelbuilders think eyelets don't make much difference one way or the other. Geometry, wall thickness, cross-sectional reinforcement and mass of the Al extrusion used in the rim are bigger factors in longevity than single/double/no eyelets.

Velocity's Synergy OC (for rear) is probably a better choice than A23 OC since it's a little beefier and offers same dish compensation, plus eyelets at same width. Velocity lists Synergy as a touring rim and A23 as a road rim (500g vs 460g in 700). Other tour-capable rims from Velocity:

1. Atlas looks like an excellent touring rim in classic polished silver, in 32/36h 26/650/700.

2. NoBS is a "better value" version of Atlas ($60 vs 90/120) without polished finish or eyelets, at 560g (26) / 620g (700).

3. Chukker is a heavier aero-profile rim intended for tandem/touring purposes at 620g (26) / 680g (700).

Velocity - Rims
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Old 10-17-15, 11:15 AM
  #81  
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95, I built using Sun Metals Rhyno .. a heavy, thick where the spoke nipple holes get drilled Extrusion (not the Rhyno Light)

Tandem stuff, I paired it with a Bullseye 40F and 48 spoke rear Hubset .. {Im still OK with 6 & 7 speed Freewheels)

My Koga Trekking Bike came with its Rohloff Hub 32 spokes laced 3 cross, to use the newer Option a 36 hole Hubshell 3 cross would be also very resistant to the occasionally seen hub shell Flange cracks in the 2 cross 32 hole Builds .

It uses Mavic EX 721 rims , but it's a 26" wheel ..
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Old 10-17-15, 12:17 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
...
My Koga Trekking Bike came with its Rohloff Hub 32 spokes laced 3 cross, to use the newer Option a 36 hole Hubshell 3 cross would be also very resistant to the occasionally seen hub shell Flange cracks in the 2 cross 32 hole Builds . ..
Rohloff is pretty clear that you should use 2 cross for 700c or 26 inch. See page 42 at this link.
http://www.rohloff.de/fileadmin/user...015_03_web.pdf
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Old 10-17-15, 12:33 PM
  #83  
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yea but if you got the Key spoke right so the NDS spoke is in the right Hole the spoke comes out at a Tangent,

and has a lot more metal to break out before the spoke pulls thru the flange ..

I Got A Bike that Koga Shipped built like that .. 3 cross though they Missed the key spoke but shipped the bike anyhow.

It is aWorld Touring bike after all the reliability is better with the tangent pull .. Rohloff ships Hubshells to places like Peru
for the 2 cross hub flange fractures that happen on big adventure tours ..


there are 2 spoke holes and the casing split bolt circle 32 its 8 bolts , 36 its 9.

My Bike Frida for 406 rims has to use 1 cross,

Since this hamster wheel is another 'what's Best?' thread A 36 hole Rohloff is better than a 32 hole one ..
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Old 10-17-15, 12:59 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by Bike Hermit View Post
Chad, in the OP said he wanted recommendations for bomb proof wheels, not light wheels.
Yeah, good point. What I meant to say with the weight numbers is that a lot of people I respect are saying the velocity wheels are the most durable, and they are 80 grams lighter, meaning if there is something missing, like the weight of eyelets, it isn't affecting reported durability. If they were the number 2 or 3 rim and were missing the weight and cost of eyelets, the picture might be more complete, but they are the number one for durability and to boot minus the weight of eyelets.

(Obviously the ratings are somewhat subjective, and also penned about 10 years ago on what can be a moving target.)

Jobst Brandt R.I.P. has to be invoked in any discussion about wheels.
So I would say, and have invoked him several times.


In The Bicycle Wheel he talks about good hollow cross section rims that use steel sockets spanning both walls of the rim to distribute spoke loads to both walls of the rim. He goes on to say that rims without eyelets often crack around the spoke holes. One can't build a good wheel without the proper spoke tension since that is one of the reasons spokes break at the j-bend.
So this is exactly what I have been mentioning in this thread. The older model Jobst advocated was that you used one of these (often described as light and responsive) rims. His favourite seems to have been the MA2. The stability of these rims, like a suspension bridge, is based on the perfect balance of (spoke) tension elements. And the strength is based on how high the spoke tension can be, and he recommended taking that to the point where the rim deformed and then backing off. But there is another model, say the aerospoke, where there are 5 spokes, and the unsupported "bridge" is strong because the rim is stronger than an MA2 could be. And when I wrote Brandt, he said you can ignore his recommendations on spoke tensioning, basically, when dealing with stiffer rims like the Dyads. If you tried to follow his lead you would break something, and the rims are not designed for the exact same relationship of spokes to rim as the older approach. Of course Brandt wasn't happy with almost any of the changes in modern rims.

I'd have to go back to my Brandt (or google his REC postings...) but I don't think he said spoke tension was key to reducing J failures, I think he said stress relief was the key there (assuming parts compatibility and quality).
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Old 10-17-15, 04:32 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
yea but if you got the Key spoke right so the NDS spoke is in the right Hole the spoke comes out at a Tangent,

and has a lot more metal to break out before the spoke pulls thru the flange ..
..
I would rather use the cross pattern that they specify because in part if you go to 3 cross, the spoke comes out of the rim at an angle farther from perpendicular to the rim, some wheel builders have had spoke breakage problems because the spoke bends at the top of the nipple when the spoke is angled too far from perpendicular.

Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
...
A 36 hole Rohloff is better than a 32 hole one ..
On that we agree, that is what I used on my bike.

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Old 10-17-15, 05:56 PM
  #86  
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CK hubs, Kinlin XC279 rims, Sapim brass nipples.
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Old 10-17-15, 09:56 PM
  #87  
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IMO ... Eyelets are the problem not the solution, same with presta.

I have 3 Dyads in use now. Not a speck of troubles. I used brass nylock nipples.
32H 2x 14G DT on Rohloff ... 8000 miles
36H 2x 13/14G Sturmey Archer 5w ... 10,000 miles
36H 3x 13/14G Sturmey Archer XL FDD ... all that + 660 = 18,660 miles. Elec side sealed bearing went at about 17,000 miles. Brake is still fine, but the cam is scored.
4200 miles was with 270 - 300 lbs GVW on tour.

All the REAL tour guys I saw in Vietnam had a ROHLOFF 14. I met a guy from Holland in Hanoi. His had a belt.

Oh, and I built them myself.

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Old 10-19-15, 09:07 PM
  #88  
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Anyone go with really lightweight rims for med-distance/med-load touring? Only rim failures I've had were non-loaded/non-touring riding; AFAIK due to under-tensioned spokes. Later I built or bought wheels with sturdy touring rims as insurance. But as a lightweight rider it's not clear that I need the added weight of heavy touring rims. Heavier tires help save flats & cushion bumps; heavier than necessary rim is sheer dead weight?
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Old 10-19-15, 11:16 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by DropBarFan View Post
Anyone go with really lightweight rims for med-distance/med-load touring? Only rim failures I've had were non-loaded/non-touring riding; AFAIK due to under-tensioned spokes. Later I built or bought wheels with sturdy touring rims as insurance. But as a lightweight rider it's not clear that I need the added weight of heavy touring rims. Heavier tires help save flats & cushion bumps; heavier than necessary rim is sheer dead weight?
Just as a metric 165 is very roughly where the normal weight range for cycling ends, so if you are 120, but carry 165 all up racks, panniers, and gear, then you are still pushing the upper limit. When I say the upper limit, a lot of people push it hard. If you want to forget about it no problem, but if you are the type who thinks they would like to err on the conservative side, but wonder if you are being crazy, 165 is a good number.

The other thing is you don't mention your weight, or what rims you think are too light or heavy, so impossible to judge what you are doing. But, it is often said that weight at the upper end is not such a big deal, abuse is more related to pattern of use. That applies to the lower end. If you have a lighter weight but are very dynamic, that may have more significance than the fact you can state a particular weight you are at and it is well within design limits.
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Old 10-22-15, 09:32 PM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by MassiveD View Post
Just as a metric 165 is very roughly where the normal weight range for cycling ends, so if you are 120, but carry 165 all up racks, panniers, and gear, then you are still pushing the upper limit. When I say the upper limit, a lot of people push it hard. If you want to forget about it no problem, but if you are the type who thinks they would like to err on the conservative side, but wonder if you are being crazy, 165 is a good number.

The other thing is you don't mention your weight, or what rims you think are too light or heavy, so impossible to judge what you are doing. But, it is often said that weight at the upper end is not such a big deal, abuse is more related to pattern of use. That applies to the lower end. If you have a lighter weight but are very dynamic, that may have more significance than the fact you can state a particular weight you are at and it is well within design limits.
I'm 63 kg weight, max total weight on the rims would be ~190 kg incl me/bike/racks/luggage & tours don't go over rough pavement/off-road. Rims are Sun Rhyno Lite 559-27, weighing 575 grams. I'm scanning now for light 559 rims, lightest I can see are Mavic 517 & 317 @ ~400 g, so a pair of those would save 350 g / .77 lbs. Not insignificant esp for rotational weight; OTOH a PITA to rebuild wheels, perhaps when one switches to dyno hub would be a good time.
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Old 10-22-15, 09:36 PM
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Is 190 kg correct?
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Old 10-22-15, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by DropBarFan View Post
I'm scanning now for light 559 rims, lightest I can see are Mavic 517 & 317 @ ~400 g, so a pair of those would save 350 g / .77 lbs.
Mavic hasn't sold the 517s in several years. They were a light mtb rim 10 years ago prone to short life. I built a few wheels with them and they just didn't last. Wider, heavier 519s were much more durable, and these were the basis for many of Mavic's current 559 rim product line. I still have 2-3 519 rims - got them from Nashbar for ~25 bux ea because they were 36h (less popular) and mislabelled as 32h with the rim decal (which I simply remove).

Look at Velocity's lineup (link in post 80), they will have 559 rims in rim and disc brake versions in more models/drillings/colors than Mavic, probably cheaper, and made in USA (JAX FL). Synergy (440g) & Aeroheat (480g) are lighter 559 touring rims.
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Old 10-23-15, 01:00 AM
  #93  
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I wonder what someone who knew nothing about rims, spokes and hubs would make of this vigorous debate.
So much choice, yet so little clear real world opinion thats easy to decipher, especially for non wheel builders like myself.

I run a 36H Rohloff though had a factory 40H been available, I'd have likely gone the 40 at the time.
I read of some custom 40H hub shells being available a while back but didn't feel any urgent need to pursue it.

My Son28 is 36H and has offered up no reasons for concern.

I've read of people espousing the virtues of Alpine 3's but alas they don't (or didn't when I got built) suit Rohloff hubs.
From memory too thick at the J-bend.
CX-Rays supposedly had the highest fatigue level testing results so as they fitted, I went with them in both wheels as a second choice.
3X in front and 2x in the rear as suggested by Rohloff.

Running both an IGH and dynohub, I wanted a balance between longevity and weight that accounted for already weighty hubs.

Dyad rims seemed to be used on premium brands like Co-motion and were the 700c extrusion of Aeroheats, which I'd used in the past.

If I had to do it again, I specify the same build except for the nipples.
Once I'd had my wheels built, I read of issues with the alloy nipples seizing, so wished I'd been more informed and got brass.

I went with disk brakes so without worrying about rim wear, I'm anticipating hopefully a long life from my wheels.

Would they qualify as best? No, but I wouldn't know what best is and even having read this thread couldn't suggest what might be.
I had to settle for buying what I thought might be quality and roll the dice from there.

So far, fingers crossed, no problems.

Last edited by rifraf; 10-23-15 at 01:06 AM.
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Old 10-23-15, 04:39 AM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by rifraf View Post
...
I run a 36H Rohloff though had a factory 40H been available, I'd have likely gone the 40 at the time.
I read of some custom 40H hub shells being available a while back but didn't feel any urgent need to pursue it.
...
If I had to do it again, I specify the same build except for the nipples.
Once I'd had my wheels built, I read of issues with the alloy nipples seizing, so wished I'd been more informed and got brass.
...
In the Rohloff manual that came with my hub they propose that the 32 spoke Rohloff wheel which is undished is about as strong as a dished 48 spoke rear wheel on a derailleur bike. (Page 41.) I still ordered 36 hole instead of 32 for my Rohloff wheel, just because I could. But my point is that I think there is no real reason to desire more spokes than 36 on a Rohloff for a solo bike. That said, I did go on one trip with a guy that had a 40 spoke undished rear derailleur wheel on his Americano. So, his wheel would have been stronger than the 36 spoke undished Rohloff wheel I have.

It probably would not be too hard to replace the nipples. But, if you wanted to try, you should get some instruction first on truing up a wheel. I have been building wheels since the 1970s, so it would probably take me two beers to accomplish. If it was me I would loosen all spokes slightly, then replace one nipple at a time. Finally tighten and re-true up the wheel. I do not have a spoke tension gauge, but I have access to use one at a bike shop. I bought Sapim nipples for my Rohloff bike, front and rear.
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Old 10-23-15, 08:39 AM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by seeker333 View Post
Mavic hasn't sold the 517s in several years. They were a light mtb rim 10 years ago prone to short life. I built a few wheels with them and they just didn't last. Wider, heavier 519s were much more durable, and these were the basis for many of Mavic's current 559 rim product line. I still have 2-3 519 rims - got them from Nashbar for ~25 bux ea because they were 36h (less popular) and mislabelled as 32h with the rim decal (which I simply remove).
The Mavic XC717 is the modern version of the XC517. It has about the same weight...420g...as the XC517. I've used both extensively for mountain bike riding and never found either to be particular short lived.

The XM719 is the current version of the XM519. The only effective difference is that the XM719 comes in a 36 hole rim and weighs about 50g more.

Originally Posted by seeker333 View Post
Look at Velocity's lineup (link in post 80), they will have 559 rims in rim and disc brake versions in more models/drillings/colors than Mavic, probably cheaper, and made in USA (JAX FL). Synergy (440g) & Aeroheat (480g) are lighter 559 touring rims.
The Synergy isn't a 559mm rim. It's a 622mm rim. The offerings from Velocity for 26" rims for rim brakes isn't all that much better than Mavic for narrower tired touring wheels. There's the Aeroheat, the Chukker or the Blunt 35. The Blunt 35 isn't really a good choice for touring since it's very, very wide and rather expensive. Mavic offers 3 rim brake rims and anyone of them would be a good choice for a 559mm wheel.

Don't get me wrong, the Aeroheat is a really good rim but it's also a $75 rim as is the Chukker. The Blunt 35 is a $100 rim! The Mavic XM rims range from $80 to about $35.
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Old 10-23-15, 10:06 AM
  #96  
psy
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I like to overbuild my bike so it can handle heavy (some would say over loaded) gear loads over rough terrain. Think "the white rim" self supported with stuff like an iPad, a couple go pros and four gallons of water.
My current touring wheel set consists of velocity psycho rims 36h (discontinued), Phil wood rear hub, Shimano Dynamo up front, with DT swiss alpine 3 spokes. Can't complain. Taken everything I've ever thrown at them and can handle a lot more I imagine. The Achilles heal of the wheel set is obviously the derailleur/hanger, and I have broken one before. But I feel like at least I can make a single speed and get home with my current setup, not sure that's true of an IGH.
I'm currently gathering up the components for a new wheel set and I've chosen to use the same brands of hubs and spokes laced this time to velocity cliffhanger rims. This will be a significant weight savings over my current rims, so I'm kinda interested to see if it makes a difference, with all the talk about how the rotational mass is so important. But weight savings had nothing to do with my rim choice, as far as I can tell, the cliffhanger is pretty much the beefiest looking rim available atm.

Last edited by psy; 10-23-15 at 10:56 AM.
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Old 10-23-15, 11:47 AM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
The Synergy isn't a 559mm rim
You are mistaken, and obviously I wouldn't have recommended it (twice) otherwise. I have 4x559s built into wheels in the garage, 3 more 559 OCs and 2 622 OCs still as rim. Synergy has been available in 559 and 622 for a decade, and more recently 584 - and even 20" and 27" in symmetric drilling.

http://store.velocityusa.com/p/syner..._touring?pp=12

http://store.velocityusa.com/k/search?q=synergy

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I just discovered Velocity has discontinued the Synergy rim. They quit making them several months ago, which explains the low/no stock status I found at various sellers. Velocity discontinued the Synergy due to low demand/sales. Velocity still has a lot of Synergy rims in inventory, so if you want them order soon from links above. AFAIK Synergy is/was unique in being the only OC-drilled rim-brake-capable 559 rim. The only asymmetrically-drilled rim Velocity will offer in the future is A23 in 622 only.

If you want an OC-drilled rim in 559 DISC take a look at Mavic EN821. UST-capable too.
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Old 10-23-15, 06:19 PM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by MassiveD View Post
Is 190 kg correct?
D'oh, that's supposed to be pounds, sorry.
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Old 10-23-15, 06:34 PM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by rifraf View Post
I wonder what someone who knew nothing about rims, spokes and hubs would make of this vigorous debate.


Would they qualify as best? No, but I wouldn't know what best is and even having read this thread couldn't suggest what might be.
I had to settle for buying what I thought might be quality and roll the dice from there.

So far, fingers crossed, no problems.
I think you are taking this a little hard. In your case with Rohloff on the table, And a generator hub Son 28, there aren't any better alternatives I am aware of, so the hubs are done. Spokes, you can't go wrong with wheelsmith or DT. And there are only a few rims referred to in the thread; some opinion that it may not be knowable whether the Mavic or Velocity is best, but pretty solid consensus that those are the available options, at the best level. There are some other rims I would happily ride.

Want to save about 1800 dollars over your selections? Drop your hubs and get some LX for about 30 dollars.
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Old 10-23-15, 06:50 PM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
Don't get me wrong, the Aeroheat is a really good rim but it's also a $75 rim as is the Chukker. The Blunt 35 is a $100 rim! The Mavic XM rims range from $80 to about $35.
I could easily find Aeroheat for under 50, and some Alex I like for 10 dollars a rim. 50 probably still has some people with their heads exploding, but it helps compared to 75. It's always the spokes that get me. I just don't expect them to cost what they do.
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