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dealing with dogs

Old 11-17-15, 01:11 AM
  #51  
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I'd just like to point out to all the people saying that you need to know very specific knowledge and skills when dealing with dogs and you'll be ok (such as stop, commanding voice, look in the eye or don't, not too much at least, maybe not too commanding voice, water bottle squirt etc). Where I live, dog whispering is not a civil duty, ie. it's not required of a person to know exactly how to deal with dogs professionally and competently. Not sure how it works where you live. Some people don't know how to deal with dogs, some people fear dogs (for good reason) and depending on local laws, have every right to defend themselves against dogs with any legally acceptable means.

If I had the chance I'd carry pepperspray. Or a gun. Sadly we don't have the chance to do either but maybe someday the pepperspray will become allowed. If I lived in the US i'd carry a gun and shoot a chasing dog, especially if it's a big one since there's really no way to predict what it is going to do. Dogs are animals and can surprise even the best dog whisperer. As I'm not in any way proficient with dogs I'd just use the use of force wheel (like in any use of force situation) and quickly decide the best/safest action for me. Use of force pyramid doesn't work with dogs, it rarely works with people.
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Old 11-17-15, 01:25 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by Jarrett2 View Post
One thing that is not discussed much is looking and listening for dogs and understanding why they do what they do.


Also, dogs get that pack mentality courage. If there are two dogs or three dogs, they might become more emboldened to make an attack. Something else to watch out for. But this sometimes has a funny backfire, they will misplace their aggression and attack each other as you ride by
There the dogs are confused about who is Pack Leader so they can end up fighting each other.

I ride with loose dogs on every single ride I do. I don't carry horns or sprays. I feel like I have better options in dealing with them, but that's just me. I have a lot of experience dealing with dogs, I understand their behavior and have no fear of them. I usually end up making friends with the loose dogs I come into contact with.

Hope some of that helps.
I'm pretty good with dogs, often dog-sit for friends & the dogs quickly learn the rules they're not taught at home. & my dog helps by telling guest dogs when they break a rule. OTOH I'm not sure how much dog expertise would help for some of the bad situations w/loose dogs. Keep riding away & some dogs will be satisfied you're not challenging them but then they might see that as weakness & keep pursuing. If you stop & face dogs down they might go into submissive mode but then they might see biker stopping as weakness & continue in attack mode. Unfortunately most dog-owners are pretty clueless & reinforce bad behavior as I constantly see while dog-walking on local path.
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Old 11-17-15, 04:05 AM
  #53  
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Around here, bear spray is not cheap, not practical as a means of dog protection. If one dog comes after me I am OK with that, I can deal with it. Don't need spray. But when they show up every few miles, it isn't practical. If you think that legally or practically you can drive down the road and spray say 30 dogs a day, not get arrested or attacked... Bear spray is not formulated for dogs it is stronger that human spray, and about 3 times stronger than dog spray. So if you use bear spray on a dog, you have some potential liability as there are government standards for humane formulations. Some are probably getting run over by cars, which can endanger the drivers.
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Old 11-17-15, 04:48 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by Ty0604 View Post
I own one actually, as you can see by my post above. It came free with the bear spray. REI was offering that or the belt holster for free with purchase. Saw your post afterwards.
I have one on order to try out. I bought the spray at REI but didn't get the Kozee free.
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Old 11-17-15, 06:40 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by MassiveD View Post
If you think that legally or practically you can drive down the road and spray say 30 dogs a day, not get arrested or attacked...
I don't see where anyone is suggesting that one spray every dog one sees. However, if a person sensibly and rationally evaluates the situation and feels that s/he is in danger ... dog loses, sorry.

Based on the fact that most people have been chased but very, very few attacked, it seems that bear spray or whatever else is mostly for peace of mind for the rider, but in the case where Something is needed, I'd prefer to have pepper spray than to use nothing or instead to use something more dangerous to the animal.

As for liability, it is a case of assault---I have the right to defend myself if attacked. Also, even bear spray is Not likely to do damage even if inhaled or sprayed directly on the eyeballs (anyone seen the video of cops in the Pacific Northwest applying it directly to the eyes of people chained to giant redwoods? Or the cop on the West Coast who took a giant can and sprayed the faces of Occupy protesters?)

The whole point of "Bear Spray" is that it is Non-Damaging, Non-Lethal alternative to more dangerous weapons. If a dog attacks and bites me, I would have to report it to police and sadly the dog would likely be put down. Wouldn't you rather I chase it off?

As for "humane formulations," I doubt that manufacturers could sell the stuff in stores if it was illegal.

As far as getting run over, your grammar construction makes it seem as if the regulations are getting run over. I assume you mean the dogs are. Care to offer the slightest shred of evidence?

I don't carry any defense with me, but if I did, wouldn't you rather it was pepper spray and not a handgun?

How to Handle a Dog Attack: 15 Steps (with Pictures) - wikiHow
Part 2 of 4: Defending and Protecting Yourself
Fight back against an attacking dog. If the dog starts biting you, you've got to defend yourself. Hit or kick the dog in the throat, nose, and the back of the head. This will stun the dog and give you time to get away.[3]
It's okay to raise your voice at this point. Yell for help as you're fighting back. Hopefully others will hear and come to your aid. However, avoid screaming as this may lead the dog to strengthen his attack.
If you have a stick or another weapon, you can (and should) use it to hit the dog. Don't hit him over the top of the head, though; most dogs have very thick skulls, so this will only serve to make the dog angrier. If available, mace or pepper spray also work as a good defense against an attacking dog. [Emphasis added.]
Fight as though your life depends on it, because it does. Dog attacks can be fatal. While you certainly don't want to hurt a dog unnecessarily, you should use force as necessary if you are being seriously attacked.

Also: Leerburg | What Would I Do if Attacked by a Dog?
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Old 11-17-15, 06:45 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
There are few things I can think of that would be a worse way of dealing with dogs than to actively try to poison them. Can me St Francis, I guess, but I really have no desire to try and hurt animals.
If you really think protecting a wild dog that's attacking you and/or your family is that important, then I have no problem with that. I'm not putting any value on an animal that's allowed to run unrestrained by the owners, and attacking anyone and everyone on the trail. Those are the kind of dogs you hear and read about mauling innocent people/children. I like animal, and have a mini schnauzer that's an important part of my family, but we care enough about the dog that we don't allow it to roam freely around the area. To each there own.
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Old 11-17-15, 10:01 AM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by robow View Post
I'm wondering how one determines when to dismount the bike and when to keep riding, since it seems to me to be a split second decision and generally continuing to ride and yell at the animal does the trick. Things can happen so fast.
Those that often dismount, any hints?
Each situation is different. If yelling at the dog slows them down and/or stops them, then continue riding, although I keep an eye on every dog until I'm well past their yard. If the dog doesn't slow down or if it continues to seem aggressive, I will slow, stop (maybe) and turn to face them (maybe). If I feel that I might need to defend myself, I'll get off the bike and face the dog.

But having to completely dismount is an extremely rare event. I seldom have dog encounters of any kind while I'm touring nor while I'm out just riding. Even when I was riding through the southern Appalachias, I think I had 4 dog encounters over the course of a month. I got barked at a lot but I didn't have many dogs that actively came out of their yards. On my most recent tour around Lake Erie, I can't recall one dog encounter and I was riding through some very rural areas of Ontario, New York and Pennsylvania.
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Old 11-17-15, 10:07 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by MassiveD View Post
I don't agree that most dogs are submissive though. Sure a human can easily dominate a dog, often. But the attacking dogs are not for the most part acting as obedient guardians of humans or property, they are playing the alpha role. Most dog owners are completely oblivious to the fact their dogs don't respect them, and the degree to which the dog is often unpredictable to the owner, is evidence of the fact the relationship is not understood.
You are completely mistaken about the relationship between humans and dogs. We human simple will not tolerate a dog that would show no respect for a human. A dog that doesn't respect even the smallest human doesn't live long enough to pass those genes on to off-spring. Even mostly feral dogs like those you find around Native American reservations in the southwestern US are incredibly mild mannered because any aggression they might display toward humans has long been breed out of them.

Now if you were talking about cats, I'd agree but, thankfully, we don't breed cats to be as big as dogs. If we did, they'd eat our faces off. I'm not sure the little ones we have now wouldn't do that given half a chance
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Old 11-17-15, 10:23 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post

How to Handle a Dog Attack: 15 Steps (with Pictures) - wikiHow
Part 2 of 4: Defending and Protecting Yourself
Fight back against an attacking dog. If the dog starts biting you, you've got to defend yourself. Hit or kick the dog in the throat, nose, and the back of the head. This will stun the dog and give you time to get away.[3]
It's okay to raise your voice at this point. Yell for help as you're fighting back. Hopefully others will hear and come to your aid. However, avoid screaming as this may lead the dog to strengthen his attack.
If you have a stick or another weapon, you can (and should) use it to hit the dog. Don't hit him over the top of the head, though; most dogs have very thick skulls, so this will only serve to make the dog angrier. If available, mace or pepper spray also work as a good defense against an attacking dog. [Emphasis added.]
Fight as though your life depends on it, because it does. Dog attacks can be fatal. While you certainly don't want to hurt a dog unnecessarily, you should use force as necessary if you are being seriously attacked.
If the situation escalates to this point, the advice given in the link is quite good. The same advice is good for just about any other kind of predator attack as well.

I disagree, however, with their second step in "Warding off an attack". Dogs are not gorillas. Making eye contact with them isn't going to trigger an attack. In fact, in most all dog encounters, we are the gorilla and we should frighten the dog. Every dog on the planet knows what a human can do with their hands and what we can pick up as a weapon. You need to use that to your advantage in any kind of dog encounter. Looking away is a sign of submission to a dog. If nothing else, looking directly at the dog is looking that a target. You can't kick, hit, punch or fight the animal if you don't keep your eye on them.

I have never encountered a dog of any kind that would make a frontal attack on anything. They attack from behind as do most every predator...with the exception of humans.
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Old 11-17-15, 11:00 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by veganbikes View Post
If we hadn't already covered it quite well fairly recently and there was brand new information that was super crucial then yes nothing wrong. However none of that is the case.

A few "Advanced Searches" indicate multiple threads started for any given topic... strange, isn't it? The entire forum is an education in repetitiveness. Expect you and Indyfazio to post the same reply in every repeat topic from here on out, right... Or, would that be repetitive?
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Old 11-17-15, 11:20 AM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by jonc123 View Post
I have one on order to try out. I bought the spray at REI but didn't get the Kozee free.
I'm sure I must have caught it on sale.
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Old 11-17-15, 11:23 AM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by MassiveD View Post
Around here, bear spray is not cheap, not practical as a means of dog protection. If one dog comes after me I am OK with that, I can deal with it. Don't need spray. But when they show up every few miles, it isn't practical. If you think that legally or practically you can drive down the road and spray say 30 dogs a day, not get arrested or attacked... Bear spray is not formulated for dogs it is stronger that human spray, and about 3 times stronger than dog spray. So if you use bear spray on a dog, you have some potential liability as there are government standards for humane formulations. Some are probably getting run over by cars, which can endanger the drivers.
Generally one can tell the difference between an aggressive dog and a nonagressive dog. I also carry my gun with me on tour. The bear spray, while it may injure the dog, is a less lethal way to deal with a dangerous animal. However, if I absolutely had to I'd have no problem shooting a dog if I was in fear of my life. I love animals too so don't take that as someone who's cruel. Not the case.
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Old 11-17-15, 12:05 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
If a dog attacks and bites me, I would have to report it to police and sadly the dog would likely be put down.
Unfortunately not in my local counties, around here, a dog must commit 3 offences before it is mandatory to be put down. The young woman that I referred to earlier that was bitten so badly in the lower leg, even tried to take it to court since this was the 2nd documented offence by that same animal. I heard eventually the owner did get rid of the dog, not because he was legally bound to do so, but rather his homeowners's insurance writer required it because of having to pay out.
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Old 11-17-15, 12:33 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
Dogs are not gorillas.
Charging adult St. Bernards at 250 lbs are gorillas.

btw, we all come at this subject with differing opinions often dependent on where we live and ride. I noticed that while I was riding out in the Denver/ Golden/ Arvada area this past summer that I never once had a single dog come out after us. The entire culture was different out there and it was wonderful, and according to my friend, quite the norm. He had previously lived in my area for about 4 years and almost gave up riding because he hated the daily confrontation with dogs.

Stuart, if you ever need to refresh your defensive dog tactics, don't waste your time in Canada, come on out and ride with me in southern IL and IN, and you'll get the all practice you need (and if not, we head over to western rural KY where you can get a Masters degree in defensive dog tactics : )
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Old 11-17-15, 12:48 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by robow View Post
Charging adult St. Bernards at 250 lbs are gorillas.

btw, we all come at this subject with differing opinions often dependent on where we live and ride.
: )
Very true, but you know better than to use rational thought and logical reasoning in a dog thread!
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Old 11-17-15, 02:29 PM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by robow View Post
Unfortunately not in my local counties, around here, a dog must commit 3 offences before it is mandatory to be put down. The young woman that I referred to earlier that was bitten so badly in the lower leg, even tried to take it to court since this was the 2nd documented offence by that same animal. I heard eventually the owner did get rid of the dog, not because he was legally bound to do so, but rather his homeowners's insurance writer required it because of having to pay out.
I find it hard to beleive that any governmental organization would allow any dog 3 strikes, especially if the dog has caused grievous injury on the previous 2 strikes. At the very least I doubt any home owner who had a dog that had caused a single grievous injury could afford the lawsuit. They most certainly couldn't afford the second one.

Originally Posted by robow View Post
Charging adult St. Bernards at 250 lbs are gorillas.
Nope. Still domesticated dogs who know exactly where then stand in the pack order. I would still look them straight in the eyes if they were being aggressive towards me.

Originally Posted by robow View Post
btw, we all come at this subject with differing opinions often dependent on where we live and ride. I noticed that while I was riding out in the Denver/ Golden/ Arvada area this past summer that I never once had a single dog come out after us. The entire culture was different out there and it was wonderful, and according to my friend, quite the norm. He had previously lived in my area for about 4 years and almost gave up riding because he hated the daily confrontation with dogs.

Stuart, if you ever need to refresh your defensive dog tactics, don't waste your time in Canada, come on out and ride with me in southern IL and IN, and you'll get the all practice you need (and if not, we head over to western rural KY where you can get a Masters degree in defensive dog tactics : )
I have ridden in all three of those locations, as well as southern Ohio, West Virginia, Virginia, North and South Carolina, Georgia, Mississippi, Alabama and all but 3 states in the US. If you look at my journals on Crazy Guy on a Bike, you can see my routes. I've yet to run across a dog that I couldn't get to back down. That includes the sneaky one in "Twisting Down the Alley" outside of Mena, Arkansas. The only reason that he was sneaky was because I was laughing too hard after watching a dachshund jump...well "try" to jump...off the 4th step out of the trailer house and rolling down the walkway like a donut and didn't see the bigger dog angling towards me. He still responded to being yelled at.
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Old 11-17-15, 02:38 PM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
I have ridden in all three of those locations, as well as southern Ohio, West Virginia, Virginia, North and South Carolina, Georgia, Mississippi, Alabama and all but 3 states in the US. If you look at my journals on Crazy Guy on a Bike, you can see my routes. I've yet to run across a dog that I couldn't get to back down. That includes the sneaky one in "Twisting Down the Alley" outside of Mena, Arkansas. The only reason that he was sneaky was because I was laughing too hard after watching a dachshund jump...well "try" to jump...off the 4th step out of the trailer house and rolling down the walkway like a donut and didn't see the bigger dog angling towards me. He still responded to being yelled at.
Four large dogs with no collars chased me down on Mohawk reservation in Canada. I didn't realize it then, but I was not supposed to be there, and because of several conflicts over the previous decade, there was a high chance these unleashed dogs were trained to attack.

I yelled "NO." in a commanding voice, slowed but did not stop, looked them right in the eyes, and passed by without a hitch. When I came back through the same way the following morning, there was a fifth dog but I was even less afraid. They knew the pecking order.

A dog that will attack a cyclist viciously is rare, in my experience. Non-existent, going by my actual experience, anyways.
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Old 11-17-15, 04:52 PM
  #68  
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dealing with dogs

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Old 11-17-15, 09:57 PM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
You are completely mistaken about the relationship between humans and dogs. We human simple will not tolerate a dog that would show no respect for a human. A dog that doesn't respect even the smallest human doesn't live long enough to pass those genes on to off-spring. Even mostly feral dogs like those you find around Native American reservations in the southwestern US are incredibly mild mannered because any aggression they might display toward humans has long been breed out of them.

Now if you were talking about cats, I'd agree but, thankfully, we don't breed cats to be as big as dogs. If we did, they'd eat our faces off. I'm not sure the little ones we have now wouldn't do that given half a chance
I agree to some extent--most dogs' instinct is to be submissive Pack Follower but OTOH most dog owners fail to properly act as Pack Leader so avg dog is somewhat confused & can jump into dominant mode when it feels threatened. I'd guess that feral dogs might on avg be less dangerous than home dogs 'cause feral dogs are used to their pecking order, ie the Pack Leader chooses what pack will do. Feral dogs probably have less pent-up energy too so perhaps are less inclined to needlessly hassle humans. However, even dog experts can get bitten by unbalanced dogs so I wouldn't feel immune to dog attacks either. Once saw a neighbor's small dog bolt out at lightning speed (no barks) & knock over an unsuspecting bike commuter by charging into front wheel.
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Old 11-18-15, 09:51 AM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by DropBarFan View Post
I agree to some extent--most dogs' instinct is to be submissive Pack Follower but OTOH most dog owners fail to properly act as Pack Leader so avg dog is somewhat confused & can jump into dominant mode when it feels threatened. I'd guess that feral dogs might on avg be less dangerous than home dogs 'cause feral dogs are used to their pecking order, ie the Pack Leader chooses what pack will do. Feral dogs probably have less pent-up energy too so perhaps are less inclined to needlessly hassle humans. However, even dog experts can get bitten by unbalanced dogs so I wouldn't feel immune to dog attacks either. Once saw a neighbor's small dog bolt out at lightning speed (no barks) & knock over an unsuspecting bike commuter by charging into front wheel.
Let me clarify here. I'm not talking about establishing a pecking order or even a relationship with the dog. I talking about introducing doubt into their minds for just a long enough to slow them down and get them to stop chasing a cyclist. Whether that doubt takes the form of conditioned response to a human through their training or just recognizing that the prey they were considering chasing just isn't worth the effort, I don't really care nor does it really matter. I've seen dogs stop in their tracks when I yell at them. They often continue to bark but seldom will they resume the chase.

And, yes, I know that dog experts as well as veterinarians get bitten. But in both cases the person is close within the dog's proximity, i.e. in range of their teeth. I never let a dog I don't know and that is being aggressive get that close to me. I've picked up a rock or put my bike between them and any bits that they could bit before they get to that point. I have whacked a dog across the nose with a bicycle wheel and that sends them packing.
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Old 11-18-15, 10:30 AM
  #71  
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I wish I would have had a camera on yesterday. I was riding with two other cyclists just before sunset on a country road and came up on a pack of 5-6 dogs nosing through some trash. This was the first time I had ridden with these other two folks and I didn't know their experience dealing with loose dogs, so I dropped to the back of the line as I know the dogs would come after the one at the back.

As we approached, the guy in front sprayed his water bottle on the ground at the dogs and they gave chase. That might have been premature. After that, he sprayed one of them in the face and it didn't slow down. Once the dogs sized up the situation and saw me at the back, they turned their attention to me. They were chasing and barking aggressively. Due to dealing with loose dogs on every ride, I quickly determined that only one of the pack was even considering a bite. The other four or five were just running and barking at a distance. Two of them attacked each other, so they were out of the equation.

So as I usually do, I locked eyes with the dog that I consider to be the main threat and let him see that I was not afraid of him. He started closing in slowly assessing if he could attack and once he got within striking range, I quickly popped my foot out of the clip and shot a kick right at his face, that missed by maybe an inch. This was enough to make the dog realize that there was danger there for him as well. He kept his distance and began to slow down after that.

Altercation was over. No one got hurt including the dogs. No chemicals in the dogs face, we just rode on. This is how 99% of all aggressive dog encounters go for me.

Last edited by Jarrett2; 11-18-15 at 10:34 AM.
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Old 11-18-15, 07:20 PM
  #72  
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I usually say GO HOME in a loud commanding voice and point to the way they came. Also, NO and BAD DOG. Many farm type dogs are used to being told to go home by their owners when they wander or reprimanded and the tone/words seems to set a question in their mind. They may bark or even chase but they aren't quite sure who they are dealing with and tend to veer off.

The scariest sight I ever saw was years ago when I worked as a farm hand in mid northern Alberta. I was plowing a field in a sealed cab tractor when a pack of about 20 feral dogs wandered across my path. Big dogs, little dogs, all muddy and wild looking. I don't know what they would have done but I knew if I were on the ground I would be at their mercy.
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Old 11-19-15, 08:46 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by dwing View Post
Expect you and Indyfazio to post the same reply in every repeat topic from here on out, right...
Wrong, at least on my part. Only with threads that have been pepper sprayed to death, especially if they have been recently. But thanks for playing.
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Old 11-20-15, 06:27 AM
  #74  
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Yell NO! and if that doesn't work go Daryl Dixon on them.
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Old 11-20-15, 07:00 AM
  #75  
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Some of you can show all of the love you can/want to, but most dogs just don't need to be running loose. Each has a brain of their own, and can change said mind at any time, for any reason. Some dogs are dangerous and should not be given the opportunity to hurt you. Again, if a dog is being aggressive, it certainly should not be loose in the first place, and I will show no mercy. The owner obviously doesn't care about it. This is just one illustration. You've read and heard about many, many more.

"Authorities say a Tennessee man was killed by a Rottweiler that he had adopted just hours earlier.
Multiple news organizations report 57-year-old Anthony Riggs's wife called deputies Thursday afternoon upon returning home and finding her husband unresponsive on the floor.
Sheriff's deputies shot the 5-year-old dog after it ran out of the house.
The Madison County Sheriff's Office says Riggs had adopted the Rottweiler earlier that morning from Jackson-Madison County Rabies Control, the county-run animal control facility.
Jackson-Madison County Regional Health Department Director Kim Tedford said the dog had been a stray, and was picked up five days before being adopted. Tedford said the dog will be autopsied. She said it showed no signs of aggression while at Rabies Control.
Jackson is about 90 miles northeast of Memphis.

Deputies: Man Killed by Dog He Had Adopted Hours Earlier - ABC News

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