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Hydrualic disc brakes have ruined it for me

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Hydrualic disc brakes have ruined it for me

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Old 12-07-15, 06:45 AM
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azza_333
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Hydrualic disc brakes have ruined it for me

After spending the last couple of months riding around on my UL touring bike, which I built with hydraulic disc brakes, I jumped back on my 2015 Kona Sutra with cable disc brakes (Hayes CX Expert), and I have found myself wondering how I ever rode on cable disc brakes before, I found myself thinking about installing hydraulic on the Kona as well. I just cant believe how huge the difference is between the modulation, and how much pressure you need to apply on the levers for the same brake power.
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Old 12-07-15, 06:50 AM
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I don't see that big of a difference, but then my brakes are BB7's which are pretty dang good in every sense.
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Old 12-07-15, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
I don't see that big of a difference, but then my brakes are BB7's which are pretty dang good in every sense.
Maybe its just a bigger gap for me because I've got mid spec Cable disc, and the very best Hydraulic($800 and that didn't even include rotors, they were another $100 each)
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Old 12-07-15, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by azza_333 View Post
After spending the last couple of months riding around on my UL touring bike, which I built with hydraulic disc brakes, I jumped back on my 2015 Kona Sutra with cable disc brakes (Hayes CX Expert), and I have found myself wondering how I ever rode on cable disc brakes before, I found myself thinking about installing hydraulic on the Kona as well. I just cant believe how huge the difference is between the modulation, and how much pressure you need to apply on the levers for the same brake power.
yes, IME (Shimano XT hydros), they are like power brakes compared to manual brakes (not often found these days) on motor vehicles. to be desired on long steep descents at any rate. and the action is just sooooo smooth.
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Old 12-07-15, 07:28 AM
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I have 2 mountain bikes with hydro disks, and I certainly enjoy their power and modulation when I'm riding single track, but my old mtn bike with BB7's really isn't that far behind. On my road bikes (Fargo & Casseroll) I have BB7 & Velo Orange canti's. I just never have the need road riding that requires the power of the hydro disks. Even the canti's are fine and I've never had an issue with them. If I have to choose just a single brake to "rule them all", I'd go BB7. But luckily, not faced with that :-)
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Old 12-07-15, 07:30 AM
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Yeah have to agree. Just switched to BB7's from Deore XT hydraulics. Does not feel nearly as nice.

However once the seals went on my hydraulics they were basically junk. And I hated dealing with the messy bleeding process.

Fingers crossed my BB7's go the distance.
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Old 12-07-15, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by mobile_simon View Post
Yeah have to agree. Just switched to BB7's from Deore XT hydraulics. Does not feel nearly as nice.

However once the seals went on my hydraulics they were basically junk. And I hated dealing with the messy bleeding process.

Fingers crossed my BB7's go the distance.
Since the bikes just for sealed road touring (I normally push the bike when I reach a short gravel road, I try to avoid them normally) I am hoping I wont have any issues with seals.
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Old 12-07-15, 07:49 AM
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I put Avid BB7's on my road bike, then swapped out the hydro's on my mountain bike for Avid BB7's. When I rebuilt both bikes, I kept the BB7's. Kelley just got a bike, and we put BB7's on that. Now I am building up a winter commuter, and it's Avid BB7 again.

I am a big fan of those brakes. I find if you can get some time in a truing stand once a year to keep your rotors true, you can run the pads a bit closer and get tighter performance. The longer I have them, the better I get at adjusting them for optimal performance.
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Old 12-07-15, 08:18 AM
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I also like that I dont ever have to worry about cables stretching or snapping on the bike anymore.
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Old 12-07-15, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by azza_333 View Post
I also like that I dont ever have to worry about cables stretching or snapping on the bike anymore.
Yes... but I can replace my cable with an allen wrench, and you need a bleed kit to replace hydros.
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Old 12-07-15, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by mdilthey View Post
Yes... but I can replace my cable with an allen wrench, and you need a bleed kit to replace hydros.
I only tour in 1st world countries so not really an issue for me I can always limp with one brake to the nearest bike shop. I never carry spare cables anyway.
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Old 12-07-15, 08:36 AM
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More complicated = less reliable = more maintenance.
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Old 12-07-15, 10:03 AM
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I only use rim brakes, not because I have any problem with discs, it is just that I find them to be perfectly adequate. And only one of my sets of wheels was built up after disc brakes became available.

When I ride my foldup bike with a mini-V on the rear and regular pull brake levers, I have to be careful that I do not pull too hard on the brakes. I get too much braking for minimal effort on the rear and can easily lock it up.

I used to complain about the braking on one of my touring bikes, then I had to make a panic stop to avoid a car that ran a stop sign. I had just started from a stop, was only up to maybe jogging speed. So, when I hit the brakes really hard and my rear wheel lifted off the ground, I was fortunate that I did not fly over the bars, I was going too slow for that to happen. I learned just how good my brakes are in that case - I have more than enough braking power. I stopped complaining about my brakes.

My point is, you do not want the most braking power with least effort that is possible - instead you want reliable predictable brakes that are perfectly adequate for all needs. I have that already on my bikes. Some of my bikes could do better in the rain, but still adequate.
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Old 12-07-15, 10:42 AM
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I really have to wonder how much of this is down to the pads.
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Old 12-07-15, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN View Post
I only use rim brakes, not because I have any problem with discs, it is just that I find them to be perfectly adequate. And only one of my sets of wheels was built up after disc brakes became available.

When I ride my foldup bike with a mini-V on the rear and regular pull brake levers, I have to be careful that I do not pull too hard on the brakes. I get too much braking for minimal effort on the rear and can easily lock it up.

I used to complain about the braking on one of my touring bikes, then I had to make a panic stop to avoid a car that ran a stop sign. I had just started from a stop, was only up to maybe jogging speed. So, when I hit the brakes really hard and my rear wheel lifted off the ground, I was fortunate that I did not fly over the bars, I was going too slow for that to happen. I learned just how good my brakes are in that case - I have more than enough braking power. I stopped complaining about my brakes.

My point is, you do not want the most braking power with least effort that is possible - instead you want reliable predictable brakes that are perfectly adequate for all needs. I have that already on my bikes. Some of my bikes could do better in the rain, but still adequate.
A good hydraulic disc brake will out perform a good any other kind of brake in every way, that is a fact... So if you think your brakes are good enough then you havn't tried a set of good hydraulic disc brakes to know the difference... and probably change your mind about your present set up if you did.
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Old 12-07-15, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN View Post
I only use rim brakes, not because I have any problem with discs, it is just that I find them to be perfectly adequate. And only one of my sets of wheels was built up after disc brakes became available.

When I ride my foldup bike with a mini-V on the rear and regular pull brake levers, I have to be careful that I do not pull too hard on the brakes. I get too much braking for minimal effort on the rear and can easily lock it up.

I used to complain about the braking on one of my touring bikes, then I had to make a panic stop to avoid a car that ran a stop sign. I had just started from a stop, was only up to maybe jogging speed. So, when I hit the brakes really hard and my rear wheel lifted off the ground, I was fortunate that I did not fly over the bars, I was going too slow for that to happen. I learned just how good my brakes are in that case - I have more than enough braking power. I stopped complaining about my brakes.

My point is, you do not want the most braking power with least effort that is possible - instead you want reliable predictable brakes that are perfectly adequate for all needs. I have that already on my bikes. Some of my bikes could do better in the rain, but still adequate.
IMO the difference between adequate and best possible, might be the difference between hitting the a car and not.
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Old 12-07-15, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
I really have to wonder how much of this is down to the pads.
I have not tried different pads on my Hydraulic set up yet, but on the cabled set up I went through a few different pairs, they do make a difference but only a very small difference.
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Old 12-07-15, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
if you think your brakes are good enough then you haven't tried a set of good hydraulic disc brakes to know the difference...
Ignorance is bliss and so I continue with my canti's and V's.
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Old 12-07-15, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
A good hydraulic disc brake will out perform a good any other kind of brake in every way, that is a fact... So if you think your brakes are good enough then you havn't tried a set of good hydraulic disc brakes to know the difference... and probably change your mind about your present set up if you did.
It's a fact? Prove it. What's your data?

There's a good GCN video that shows essentially no difference except in wet conditions and long, steep descents.

I'm curious to see what you have to support your position.
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Old 12-07-15, 04:05 PM
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the one factor you guys dont take into account is how well a given person can brake, and the surface and traction available.
Sure, I dont deny that the disc brakes are going to be stronger, and have good modulation, I come from a motorycycle background with some paved track racing experience and so understand hard braking.

braking on two wheels isnt like a digital on/off experience, you deal with all kinds of factors, your ability to get on the brakes fast, how hard you apply the front, your body language in terms of weight transfer, reading the feeling of traction and modulating for this while still getting the maximum braking out of a given situation--all this stuff. Comes down a lot to your bike handling skills essentially, so for those of us with lots of two wheeled experience, and braking hard at all kinds of speeds on all kinds of surfaces, there is a certain grain of salt taken with how great discs are---I say again, I completely agree that they are stronger and all in all are better in a quantative sense, but when you put the human factor in, it begins to blur the issue, because riding on skinny little tires, we are always going to getting to the edge of traction at some point anyway.

I should add that I plan to use mechanical discs like BB7s on my next touring bike, so its not like I am anti-disc, and completely see the advantage of less finger pressure on long long windy downhills when loaded. The thing is, the times we are on technical downhills that push the braking limits are far and few between, and also some people just brake a lot more than others, so end up taxing their braking system, whatever it is, a lot more than other people simply due to not being comfortable with speed and or dragging brakes a lot.
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Old 12-07-15, 04:56 PM
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I was under the impression that hydraulic disk brakes don't require as frequent "adjustment". I'm about to buy my first set of disk brakes so please tell me if I'm wrong about this.
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Old 12-07-15, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by boomhauer View Post
I was under the impression that hydraulic disk brakes don't require as frequent "adjustment". I'm about to buy my first set of disk brakes so please tell me if I'm wrong about this.
Once a year a brake bleeding and that's it. Pads/Rotors are the same
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Old 12-07-15, 05:32 PM
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German Magura Hydro Stop Rim Brakes I have the mounts to fit disc brakes on the frame and fork , (& now Hubs , too)
(In fact the year previously ('03) the company supplied the version of The World Tour,Rohloff, Bikes built up that way)

the HS 33 that came on a 04 bike I got Used in 08 .. after I Finished the Hose replacement to reach the new Higher handle bar Height I wanted, ... after stem raiser addition..

have been thru 3 sets of KS brake pads & I've never needed to do anything with the fluid ..

Significant is the difference between their Closed system , and the expansion tank
with its sealing Bladder that is required for Hydro Discs because of the normal disc/pad friction heating the fluid..

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Old 12-07-15, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
A good hydraulic disc brake will out perform a good any other kind of brake in every way, that is a fact... So if you think your brakes are good enough then you havn't tried a set of good hydraulic disc brakes to know the difference... and probably change your mind about your present set up if you did.
well... not universally true, IME anyway. i've had XT hydraulics and took them off, reinstalled the original fork, and rebuilt the wheel with the original hub, despite my compliments (which were true as far as they went) in a previous post, for an old single pivot caliper brake and am satisfied. they squealed and were heavier than necessary for me. they were very smooooth though. did i mention that?
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Old 12-07-15, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by robow View Post
Ignorance is bliss and so I continue with my canti's and V's.
Retro Grouch
I'm not saying other brake types don't work...

Originally Posted by StanSeven View Post
It's a fact? Prove it. What's your data?

There's a good GCN video that shows essentially no difference except in wet conditions and long, steep descents.

I'm curious to see what you have to support your position.
Even your statement supports my position...

Originally Posted by hueyhoolihan View Post
well... not universally true, IME anyway. i've had XT hydraulics and took them off, reinstalled the original fork, and rebuilt the wheel with the original hub, despite my compliments (which were true as far as they went) in a previous post, for an old single pivot caliper brake and am satisfied. they squealed and were heavier than necessary for me. they were very smooooth though. did i mention that?
True enough when you compare the same level of the different types of brakes, just like in anything else, there's fail, good enough, good, great, and can't go wrong if you have the money...

Originally Posted by boomhauer View Post
I was under the impression that hydraulic disk brakes don't require as frequent "adjustment". I'm about to buy my first set of disk brakes so please tell me if I'm wrong about this.
I have had my Grimeca hydraulic disk brakes on my bike for 15+ years 36,500KM+, and never ever adjusted them, changed pads 3 times...
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