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I've had a couple of depressing experiences relying on the locals to get proper directions and nowadays rely almost exclusively on GPS.
More than a decade ago, I was in Bejing (for business). Despite having the business card of the (small) hotel were I stayed, the driver told me (sign language) that he didn't know how to get me there (the hotel was located in old Bejing's hutong, a hopeless maze). Fortunately, we were able to navigate with the GPS (back then, i.e. before maps, I used to mark the location of my hotel, wander without worrying and head back using nothing more than the arrow.) |
Originally Posted by rex615
(Post 18426443)
Interesting you choose a Nahuatl name. I like.
Here's a story that Québecois cyclists may appreciate. I was on my Bike Friday (a folder w/20" wheels) on le P'tit Train du Nord (a wonderful rail-trail north of Montreal), and a cyclist asked me in French what kind of bike I had. I responded in French, and she no doubt realized I wasn't Québecois myself but also that I wasn't a native French speaker. However, my accent is mostly European French and not identifiable, I'm told. After I explained about my Bike Friday, the very next thing the woman said was, "mais vous êtes d'où, monsieur?" (which basically translates to "where the hell are you from?") Another time in Canada, an American friend & I had just boarded a ferry with our bikes to go from the îles de la Madeleine (Magdalen islands) to Prince Edward Island. A couple got out of their vehicle and started chatting with us in French. They were intrigued by our Bike Fridays. I think that I was talking to the husband, and my friend was talking to the wife. (My friend also speaks fluent French.) After a few minutes, the man asked me why we had come all the way to the Magdalen islands from Europe. I told him we weren't European. He just assumed that because we could both speak French, that we had to be European. A couple of hours later during the voyage, he sat down and chatted with us in almost flawless English (which is why Montreal is the one francophone city in the world where I'm sometimes a little scared to speak French). I sometimes have a difficult time understanding Québecois French, but the Acadian French spoken on most of the Magdalen islands is a lot more difficult to understand. We stayed on a B&B there, and saw mainly the wife. One day, her husband came in while we were eating breakfast. My friend asked him what he did for a living. He said something which sounded like "suis pechdoma". After the husband left, my friend asked me if I understood what the man said. I told him that I thought he said "je suis pecheur de homard". (I'm a lobster fisherman) |
I was touring in Costa Rica and stopped to ask a man for directions, in Spanish. He replied to me in English that he didn't understand. He was a retired ex-pat from North America and couldn't speak any Spanish.
I was coming down a pass in Chile and saw a touring cyclist coming toward me. I stopped and learned that he spoke German. He had grown up in East Germany so he hadn't studied either English or Spanish as a kid. He was thrilled that I could speak German with him. It was his first day in Chile and I don't think he'd been able to actually converse with anyone. We talked for a long time. I still needed to get to the next town, so I told him I really needed to get moving again. I often wondered how he made out on that tour. |
Originally Posted by dorkypants
(Post 18426618)
Then there are the wonderful French junctions where there's a sign pointing one way to "Toutes Directions", while a sign pointing the opposite way says "Autres Directions"!
Reminds me of the time I was on my motorbike riding along the Mississippi or the Missouri river and asking a local how to get to certain place. He told me, with no humor intended "Well, you can't get there from here." After further inquiry I realized he meant I had to double back to a bridge that was several miles in the direction i had come from, because I had to cross the river. |
Re East Germans. I met an east German couple biking the same route as I in northern California, only a few years after the wall came down. The guy could speak English not too badly but the girl only spoke French and i don't speak German so I would just switch around all the time. once again it made me feel lucky to have had the opportunity to learn other languages.
One thing I've learned traveling is that some people just don't have the ability to think beyond their view and listening view of the world. And its not always a question of education, I've known and met people who lives fairly closed lives in terms of education and not being ever far from their area, but were very observant and could think of different ways to try explain things to a struggling person. Yet so many times I've had encounters with people that just leave you shaking your head, heck I've had it with fellow English speakers while traveling. As to the specific topic, it would be hard having no common language at all when traveling, I've only experienced it a bit in Germany a few times, and can't imagine being in a place with a whole different alphabet. Even with some common language, I've had people give me totally wrong direction advice, either they were bored and real buggers, getting a laugh out of it, or wouldn't admit to not knowing and make stuff up, or probably sometimes they were unfortunately just thick as a brick. Always comes back to the ask twice rule, if not same answer from two different separate people, ask a third and fourth if necessary. After going out of your way on a loaded bike a few times due to wrong directions, you learn to be very distrustful, of at least selective of who you believe. (Plus always having a general layout in your head of your general direction, good map sense) |
3 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by dorkypants
(Post 18426595)
That must be a really ancient sign, the distances are all in miles, not kilometers. [I grew up in Burma and still read a little Burmese.]
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=496056 i believe the myanmarese still use the oldfangled british system. elevation if feet, distance in miles. took me a while to figure out the numbered posts were in miles rather than km....first couple days out of yangon there were none. later when they appeared, there were only 7 interval posts between them. huh? furlongs, baby, furlongs. but nowadays plenty of chinese signs. and with chinese engineers building roads and railway all over southeast asia, can usually find a "chineser" to ask directions. if you try this, always go for the guy in the suv, or carrying the engineering maps....regular laborers have no clue about distance or road conditions (sleeping in the transport bus to the work site). http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=496057 |
Originally Posted by axolotl
(Post 18426732)
I always liked the sound of it. The word is in English dictionaries, too, but you're absolutely right about its origin.
Here's a story that Québecois cyclists may appreciate. I was on my Bike Friday (a folder w/20" wheels) on le P'tit Train du Nord (a wonderful rail-trail north of Montreal), and a cyclist asked me in French what kind of bike I had. I responded in French, and she no doubt realized I wasn't Québecois myself but also that I wasn't a native French speaker. However, my accent is mostly European French and not identifiable, I'm told. After I explained about my Bike Friday, the very next thing the woman said was, "mais vous êtes d'où, monsieur?" (which basically translates to "where the hell are you from?" I sometimes have a difficult time understanding Québecois French.... |
Originally Posted by saddlesores
(Post 18425517)
i've toured in china, thailand, cambodia, vietnam, laos, myanmar, malaysia.
i speak passable chinese (better than some chinese, hahah), and nitnoy thai. in big cities, can always find someone that speaks english. smaller towns schoolkids can help, or know a local english teacher....who may (or NOT!) speak english. monks in wats/temples often can speak some english. miming, drawing pictures can work with "things" but not directions. first thing you want to do is get yourself a phrasebook. lonely planet makes a small one with the essentials for 5 languages:thai, viet, khmer, lao, burmese. learn the numbers and how to count, helpful with kilometer posts. http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=495932 learn some useful phrases: how far is....? which road goes to.....? where's the w.c.? where is a guesthouse/market/bank.....? write the most important ones on a small paper to carry in your handlebar bag. i keep the ones i use most on small cards in the mapcase, visible so i don't have to root around to find them when needed. of course, you could use cell phone apps. there's one that uses your cell phone camera, take photo of chinese menu, text recognition software will translate for you. if you trust the translations. major highways will usually have english, or at least a recognizable approximation of where you're headed. http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=495933 of course out in the countryside, you never know what kind of signage (if any) you'll come across. http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=495934 try to find a bilingual map. if not, compare to an english map, know the pronunciation and characters for your destination and some towns along the way. very useful if you need to take a bus. to/from cities will be in local characters, any announcements will be in local language. if in english, be careful. things to watch out for: locals have their own names for towns and villages, their local dialect may (will!) be incomprehensible. town names on maps may not match town names on signs may not match town names used in the towns. locals often don't know the area outside a few km or less around their village. heck, some locals don't know the name of their village. "excuse me, what place is this?" "town" "okay, what's the name of the town?" "here." locals mostly cannot read maps. they love maps, and will gladly tear yours out of your hands to look at it. they can't help you, but they think it's awesome magic. locals do not know how to measure distance. in china, if you ask how far, the answer is usually "very far" "not far" or "too far to go on a bicycle" if you ask how many kilometers, the answer is always "2", whether it's two or twenty or seventy-five. some languages do not have words for yes/no, or they aren't used. if used, wrong. as a foreign traveler, never ask "is this the way to....?" or "is this the road to....?" cause the answer is always yes. do not think you're clever by asking "where does this road go?" because the answer will be "where do you want to go?" if you name a destination, that's where the road goes. do not get more clever by asking "how do i get to....?" as you'll be told to go to the bus station, or told you can't get there from here. The real kicker for me was going to market and trying to practice Mandarin. They would inevitably laugh. I thought they were laughing at me. It took many a bruised ego to hear, "They are laughing with you." Even understanding that I couldn't get my head around it. So perhaps you will be better than me at language but I consider if you are willing to "cross the tracks" you'll make things happen for yourself. Humor is key. I haven't been to China but the Taiwanese are friendly to me, especially if I smile. That's the international language, the smile. Phrase books are good, notes are good, too, but you will be in places where you can't read. English ping ying signage was introduced here maybe 5 years ago so I lived here for years without being able to read one street name. I have and use a compass regularly. The city I live in has changed the English spelling 3 times. E.g. there are two parallel main roads with the same number 2 km apart, that kind of thing. When that happens laugh at yourself. It helps everyone relax and you can think. Anything to reduce anxiety. I've carried whiskey and cigs and they are great sharing items when crossing borders or out in the boon docks with locals. Also take precautions. Just because you are with a bunch of people don't leave your first aid kit behind. Get a decent size and a small one to take one with you when you go into the unknown. Since there are poisonous snakes here I carry a Sawyer Extractor I bought from REI in the US. But don't let fear hold you back from exploring stuff. Just bring a few emergency items and you'll be fine. I also use and recommend the PacSafe belt Amazon.com: Pacsafe Cashsafe Anti-Theft Travel Belt Wallet,Black: Clothing ;) Cheers. |
I've gone on car trips to rural areas in southeastern US, sometimes not far away, & the accents can be amazingly hard to understand, they might have well as been speaking a foreign language. Actually can be easier in foreign countries where folks realize they need to speak slowly & simply to a visitor.
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Originally Posted by axolotl
(Post 18426732)
Here's a story that Québecois cyclists may appreciate. I was on my Bike Friday (a folder w/20" wheels) on le P'tit Train du Nord (a wonderful rail-trail north of Montreal), and a cyclist asked me in French what kind of bike I had. I responded in French, and she no doubt realized I wasn't Québecois myself but also that I wasn't a native French speaker. However, my accent is mostly European French and not identifiable, I'm told. After I explained about my Bike Friday, the very next thing the woman said was, "mais vous êtes d'où, monsieur?" (which basically translates to "where the hell are you from?")
Another time in Canada, an American friend & I had just boarded a ferry with our bikes to go from the îles de la Madeleine (Magdalen islands) to Prince Edward Island. A couple got out of their vehicle and started chatting with us in French. They were intrigued by our Bike Fridays. I think that I was talking to the husband, and my friend was talking to the wife. (My friend also speaks fluent French.) After a few minutes, the man asked me why we had come all the way to the Magdalen islands from Europe. I told him we weren't European. He just assumed that because we could both speak French, that we had to be European. A couple of hours later during the voyage, he sat down and chatted with us in almost flawless English (which is why Montreal is the one francophone city in the world where I'm sometimes a little scared to speak French). I sometimes have a difficult time understanding Québecois French, but the Acadian French spoken on most of the Magdalen islands is a lot more difficult to understand. We stayed on a B&B there, and saw mainly the wife. One day, her husband came in while we were eating breakfast. My friend asked him what he did for a living. He said something which sounded like "suis pechdoma". After the husband left, my friend asked me if I understood what the man said. I told him that I thought he said "je suis pecheur de homard". (I'm a lobster fisherman) My first experience in a Francophone country as a college French major was in Québec. Boy, was that ever a learning experience! I later moved to Louisiana to teach French and returned to the bottom of the steep part of the learning curve for local dialect. I did a graduate seminar at the University of New Brunswick which helped greatly on that. I'd love to return to the Great White North to experience being there now that I can better understand the French. :) |
Originally Posted by bikemig
(Post 18425644)
Finland. Plus the mosquitoes there put the ones in Minnesota to shame.
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"Necessity is the mother of invention." i.e. You can learn a language faster than you think when you really need to.
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If you can find a McDs, use your fingers to order a meal. However, many McD employees speak a little English, so using your fingers may not be necessary.
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Originally Posted by gerryl
(Post 18434178)
"Necessity is the mother of invention." i.e. You can learn a language faster than you think when you really need to.
as to the first point, about wanting to make the effort, about 30 years ago I was on an exchange program where I had the wonderful opportunity to learn French and Spanish. There were a couple of people in our group who just didnt do well, they weren't happy with things and were convinced it was too hard to learn another language, and so they didn't do well in this regard compared to others in the group. My life experience with other languages is that you really need to throw away being concerned that you sound like an idiot, cuz you probably do, but thats ok. You just muddle through things and use what you know, and each day you pick up new words and your mouth muscles improve in making diff sounds you've never made before. It just takes time and its slow, but you just have to muddle your way through and dont worry about being bad at it. Laugh at the whole thing, thats the only thing you can do, improve your miming skills and be friendly--thats the ticket. |
Originally Posted by robow
(Post 18434110)
Note to self: Cross off Finland as likely to bike tour since I've toured MN when the skeeters were sooo bad that you were either riding quickly or were inside the tent but no other possibility of life existed.
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Originally Posted by DropBarFan
(Post 18433762)
I've gone on car trips to rural areas in southeastern US, sometimes not far away, & the accents can be amazingly hard to understand, they might have well as been speaking a foreign language. Actually can be easier in foreign countries where folks realize they need to speak slowly & simply to a visitor.
I've had the same experience with Scotsman, and some Brits. accents are a pretty neat thing. Fascinating how they develop and vary so much. |
Originally Posted by djb
(Post 18434268)
I've had the same experience with Scotsman, and some Brits. . |
Originally Posted by chasm54
(Post 18434435)
Scotsmen ARE Brits.
The vote came and went, so yes, you are correct ;-) Because here when we say English, we are meaning English Can vs French Can. so we tend to say Brits when speaking of people from England, but yes, as my sister says to me whenever I say she lives in England, she corrects me and says, No, I live in Wales...... re accents, its the same here in Canada. Plonk me down in a small fishing village in middle of fricken nowhere Newfoundland in a room of old fishermen and I'll most likely be as clueless as to what is being said if I were in Russia (maybe not quite, but close....). |
There are or were dedicated translator devices. They're not very good but if you need to get your point across it's quicker than a pocket dictionary and more coverage than a phrase book. Saying 1 or 2 words isn't likely to help much tho. Sometimes you just have to eat what they give you, take things with a grain of salt and be ready for miscommunications. I would like or I want are probably some of the things i used most often and then you need the noun or verb to put after them. I want chicken, i want to go here.
A problem in South east Asia is that the letters are different too so reading signs is more than just knowing some words. Also many of the people may not even be able to read in their own language. You can have someone local write down destinations but doesn't help if the taxi driver can't read. The electric translator is nice because it will say the word. Dircetions will be the hardest part and i'd suggest gps or very good maps and very good orienteering skills. |
Originally Posted by djb
(Post 18434605)
Ha! Got me.
The vote came and went, so yes, you are correct ;-) Because here when we say English, we are meaning English Can vs French Can. so we tend to say Brits when speaking of people from England, but yes, as my sister says to me whenever I say she lives in England, she corrects me and says, No, I live in Wales...... re accents, its the same here in Canada. Plonk me down in a small fishing village in middle of fricken nowhere Newfoundland in a room of old fishermen and I'll most likely be as clueless as to what is being said if I were in Russia (maybe not quite, but close....). As for accents, I've been to Newfie. Much easier for this Brit than Acadian New Brunswick... . If you're ever over here I'll introduce you to a Geordie. You'll think you're in Scandinavia. |
Originally Posted by chasm54
(Post 18434642)
As for accents, I've been to Newfie. Much easier for this Brit than Acadian New Brunswick... . If you're ever over here I'll introduce you to a Geordie. You'll think you're in Scandinavia.
And as for your offer, be careful, I may take you up on it one day.... cheers |
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Originally Posted by TheLibrarian
(Post 18434637)
Also many of the people may not even be able to read in their own language.
minorities here in china (there are ~55 plus the han) have no written language. http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=496702 here's a sign at a government office in yunnan province. first column is simplified chinese, second column some crazy ethnic symbolism, third column is a modified pinyin approximation of the ethnic language, not the same pronunciation as the standard chinese. also some of the groups use the chinese characters, but with an entirely different pronunciation. chinese television normally has subtitles for all the chinese who don't, um, speak chinese. and assuming they can speak the national language. plenty of locations in southern china where i'd try to speak with the locals........but the only chinese they know is.... ...."i can't speak chinese." |
Originally Posted by saddlesores
(Post 18435984)
assuming they have a written language. i believe there are a couple of the ethnic
minorities here in china (there are ~55 plus the han) have no written language. http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=496702 here's a sign at a government office in yunnan province. first column is simplified chinese, second column some crazy ethnic symbolism, third column is a modified pinyin approximation of the ethnic language, not the same pronunciation as the standard chinese. also some of the groups use the chinese characters, but with an entirely different pronunciation. chinese television normally has subtitles for all the chinese who don't, um, speak chinese. and assuming they can speak the national language. plenty of locations in southern china where i'd try to speak with the locals........but the only chinese they know is.... ...."i can't speak chinese." |
Originally Posted by alan s
(Post 18434248)
If you can find a McDs, use your fingers to order a meal. However, many McD employees speak a little English, so using your fingers may not be necessary.
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Originally Posted by chasm54
(Post 18436403)
It's all fascinating stuff, this, and just goes to show what a brilliant idea the first Qin Emperor had when he insisted on standardizing the script. 50-odd languages whose speakers all (if they're educated) share a written language. Amazing, really, and impossible in an alphabetic system.
(forget for now there are multiple pinyin systems, most discarded) there are about 90,000 chinese characters. (5000 or so commonly used) but there are only about 400 pinyin words. (shi, ting, tong, cheng, song, etc....) so there are hundreds if not thousands of possible characters for each pinyin word. oh, the hard part? chinese don't use spacing between characters, and many don't use spacingbetweenthepinyinwordssohowthehelldoyouknowwhenonepiny inendsandotherbeginsbecasueitsallbasedoncontext........... http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=496770 i thought thai would be easier! heck, only 44 letters! but 30 of them are consonants and 20 of them sound like "K". oh, the vowels? yeah, they got 'em, but can be written before or after the consonant, or above, or below. it's like playing 3D chess with both sides only having pawns and both sides the same kkkkkokkkkookkkklllloooorlllkkkkk. |
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