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8 speed shifters performance vs 11 speed shimano

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8 speed shifters performance vs 11 speed shimano

Old 02-22-16, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by robow
What cassette and crankset are you running may I ask?
For touring, use a Campy road triple with an aftermarket 24T chainring, that is 52/42/24. Cassette is eight speed Sram 11/32, sprockets are 11, 12, 14, 16, 18, 21, 26, 32.

For my graphs, I am using the 559/50mm Schwalbe Dureme tire for diameter purposes. It is my own spreadsheet for my own use, so I did not bother to do things like label the graph axis, etc. Y axis is gear inches, X axis is gear number, the datapoints are colored for which chainring I am using, the color key is on the right side.

The 18 speeds with the crank and cassette cited above are plotted up on this graph.



On my last tour I took off the 52T chainring and put on a 46T for half step gearing. (The 52T is one and a half step with the 42T chainring with that cassette.) I found that losing the high end did not bother me too much because with a heavily loaded bike I generally try to stay below 25MPH. And I liked gaining a gear of 56.5 in between the 51.6 and 60.1 gears, which was a range that I sometimes wished I had a gear within it. The graph below shows that gearing:



But the photo in post number 12 above is my rando bike that I just finished building up last month, that uses the stock 30T granny, not the 24T granny gears that I use for touring. So, that is a Campy 52/42/30 road triple. Same eight speed 11/32 cassette as I use for touring. Graph below represents this bike, for wheel diameter for the calculations I used a 28mm tire although the bike has a 32mm tire on it. With this setup, the 42.9 and the 44.3 inch gears are somewhat redundant, but that is the only redundancy.



No, I am not going to give the spreadsheet to anyone, so don't bother asking.
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Old 02-22-16, 11:04 AM
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A good online graphic tool for analyzing gears is for example this one: Mike Sherman's Bicycle Gear Calculator
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Old 02-22-16, 11:12 AM
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Tourist MSN, do you ever encounter any difficulty with that very large 18 tooth step between mid ring and granny? I think I would attach a chain catcher for sure.
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Old 02-22-16, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by robow
Tourist MSN, do you ever encounter any difficulty with that very large 18 tooth step between mid ring and granny? I think I would attach a chain catcher for sure.
Yes I use a chain catcher. Don't know if it is needed, but I thought it would come in handy (like you did) so I put it on before I found out if it was needed.

Downshift to the 24 from the 42 is not a problem.

But, the upshift from the 24 to 42 is a little slow. I have to overshift, then once the chain catches, move the shifter back a bit. I can almost always make the shift in 30 feet or less, keep in mind when I am down on the 24 I am already going pretty slow, so 30 feet of distance might take several seconds. Friction shifter is needed, there is no way that an indexed shifter would work.

Front derailleur is a high normal vintage Suntour.

The rear XT derailleur (M739 I think?) won't take up all slack if I am on the 24T chain ring and try to use the 11 or 12T sprockets in rear, but I never use those highly cross chained gears anyway, so not a problem.

I have probably posted this photo on this forum two dozen times, I am sure some are getting tired of seeing it.

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Old 02-22-16, 12:32 PM
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I wish there were more cassettes that started with a 12 tooth instead of 11.
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Old 02-24-16, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by OndrejP_SK
- The jump from 7 speed to 8 speed basically kept the sprocket spacing, but the freehub got wider and another sproclet was added. Therefore the legendary 7 speed XT and Deore flatbar thumbshifters can be used with 7 or 8 speed cassettes.
- Then the next jump from 8 to 9 speed kept the sprocket thickness, but reduced the sprocket spacing and introduced a new chain with thinner plates. But because the sprockets are the same thickness, the rollers of the chain should be as wide as 8 speed chain.
- The next jump from 9 speed to 10 speed changed sprocket spacing, sprocket thickness and chain width (both the plates and the rollers).
- I am not sure if the jump from 10 to 11 speeds changed the sprocket thickness, but the importatnt thing is that they changed the freehub width, and this without increasing the hub spacing results in a weaker wheel. This is the main reason I would not consider 11 speed for touring.

For myself I decided to use 9 speed gearing for my touring bike. Even the low groups are now 9 speed so parts are readily available and cheap, while the gear jumps are just about right.

If the OP wants to go from 11 speed to 8, fine, but the change would't make sense without replacing the rear hub for one with narrower freehub (8-9-10 speed type) for a stronger wheel. In case of Shimano hub, the freehub body can be replaced without relacing the wheel, the wheel just has to be re-dished and some spacers added to the NDS.



- 8 speed is just very slightly more durable. The modern materials used in the 10 and 11 speed chains really make them very good, but at a much higer price.
- maintenance is the same
- deffinitely much much cheaper
- not so sure about reliability, but if stronger rear wheel is more reliable, then yes, 8 or 9 speed should be more reliable


- what do you mean by better performance ? more crisp and precise shifting ? This is true only when everything is clean. When the cassette is full of mud I can guarantee the 8 speed would shift better. Also in case your shifter breaks and you buy a cheap friction thumbshifter in a village garage repair shop, the 8 speed would be more tolerant to the less precise shifting. Moreover, 8-9-10 speed use all the same ratio (except dyna-sys MTB) and can be used with all sorts of Shim-ergo solutions e.g. use 10 speed shifter with 9 speed cassette only by different clamping of the shifter cable at the derailleur.
- probably smaller jumps between gears, but you can probably use front tripple with low range cassette to reach the same with 8 or 9 speed casette. With front tripple the 11 speed in the back just loses sense.
Actually 11 speed stuff can be had for not much more than. 8 speed stuff when looking online..

Better performance as in faster shifting. Smoother. More gears to adjust cadence. More convenient to shift than bar ends.

None of the new stuff come with triples anymore. I prefer doubles anyway. Granny gears are for grannies.

Having experienced 8 speed, it does feel quite a bit like a downgrade
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Old 02-24-16, 03:27 PM
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You can Get an IGH with either speeds count from Shimano.

people tour on those, long distances.
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Old 02-24-16, 03:29 PM
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Yep, keeping and riding what you've got is a good decision. Post your tour! Enjoy!
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Old 02-24-16, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by robow
8 speed "stuff" is only going to be tougher to find as time goes on and you will have very limited options. I doubt that there is that much greater reliability (if any) by dropping to an 8 speed gear set, also consider that your present 11 speed hubs may not be able to accept an 8,9, or even 10 speed cassette, so now we're talking even more cash for new wheel build.
true
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Old 02-24-16, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by spectastic
...
None of the new stuff come with triples anymore....
When Campy stopped making square taper triples, I stocked up at closeout clearance prices. I have one more spare crankset that I have never put on a bike yet and another set of crank arms after that. And two more bottom brackets ready to go.

Originally Posted by spectastic
...
Granny gears are for grannies.
...
Then call me a granny. I was unaware I could be a granny when I never had kids. Or, at least I think I never had kids.
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Old 02-24-16, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob
You can Get an IGH with either speeds count from Shimano.

people tour on those, long distances.
Alfine11 is known to be less durable and the gear boX has been known to leak oil. I used alfine 8 on my last tour. Neat setup, but limited gearing range and big gearing gaps. Also, huge pain in the ass to change a rear flat, which was numerous, because I was running worn tires. The extra drag is also noticeable, and I don't like it. I've finally decided it's not for me.
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Old 02-24-16, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
When Campy stopped making square taper triples, I stocked up at closeout clearance prices. I have one more spare crankset that I have never put on a bike yet and another set of crank arms after that. And two more bottom brackets ready to go.



Then call me a granny. I was unaware I could be a granny when I never had kids. Or, at least I think I never had kids.
Square taper is like... soo yesterday. I get bothered by the amount of grit that accumulates on the bb.
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Old 02-24-16, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by spectastic
Square taper is like... soo yesterday. I get bothered by the amount of grit that accumulates on the bb.
Maybe, but they provide a wide selection of bottom bracket lengths (103 mm- 118 mm+), which is relatively important if you want to maintain chainline when switching cranks. The square taper bottom brackets can be found almost anywhere. In my experience, there is no more grit accumulation than any other bottom bracket.
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Old 02-24-16, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug64
Maybe, but they provide a wide selection of bottom bracket lengths (103 mm- 118 mm+), which is relatively important if you want to maintain chainline when switching cranks. The square taper bottom brackets can be found almost anywhere. In my experience, there is no more grit accumulation than any other bottom bracket.
Ive never needed anything other than 68mm hollotech, and stick by 130 bcd cranks. Not sure what chainline issues you refer to.

Perhaps it's economical to have square taper, but all my nice bikes use newer stuff, and having only 1 bb standard in your collection is good.
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Old 02-24-16, 10:43 PM
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I'm using 11 speed for touring and commuting. I've also used 8, 9 and 10. I don't think there is much difference in durability or availability of parts. I tend to do shorter trips in more populated areas, so perhaps for remote areas, replacing a lower drivetrain would be easier. Honestly, I don't give it much thought. There is always newer, better stuff available each year, so in a couple years, 11 speed will be today's 10 speed.
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Old 02-24-16, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by spectastic
Ive never needed anything other than 68mm hollotech, and stick by 130 bcd cranks. Not sure what chainline issues you refer to.

Perhaps it's economical to have square taper, but all my nice bikes use newer stuff, and having only 1 bb standard in your collection is good.
Replacing a road crank with a mountain bike crank, i.e., a 52/39/30, 48/36/28, 48/36/26 road triples with a 44/32/22 mountain crankset. 45 mm chainline vs. 50 mm chainline. You must not have many hills "inside your body"
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Old 02-24-16, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug64
Replacing a road crank with a mountain bike crank, i.e., a 52/39/30, 48/36/28, 48/36/26 road triples with a 44/32/22 mountain crankset. 45 mm chainline vs. 50 mm chainline. You must not have many hills "inside your body"
Actually there's something known as hill country. I just travel light
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Old 02-25-16, 09:56 AM
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Happy with my 14 speed R'off. its even better in a 20" wheel.

most of my touring miles was on a simple reliable 6 speed freewheel & triple crank .

now it seems you all have to get the most complicated gear marketing offers , like it was the latest i-Phone model ..

good luck
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Old 02-25-16, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by spectastic
Square taper is like... soo yesterday. I get bothered by the amount of grit that accumulates on the bb.
Grit?

I have only had to replace one square taper bottom bracket, I bought a used bike for $5 USD and it needed a different one when I bought it. But I have never worn one out yet.

I did one group tour a couple years ago, there were only two mechanical failures (not counting flats) for 16 riders of loaded touring in the mountains for a week, one of those failures was a nearly new external bottom bracket. I was happy to have my square taper one.

Originally Posted by spectastic
... and having only 1 bb standard in your collection is good.
If your external bottom brackets go out often, I can see the merit in standardizing on one.

I do not see any advantage to standardizing on parts that are really long lasting like a square taper bottom bracket. I will probably wear out at least five chains for one bottom bracket, so in my opinion it makes more sense to standardize on chains and cassettes. All of my bikes except an old 3 speed use the same eight speed chains. And all my bikes with cassettes use the same eight speed 11/32 cassette, I just bought three more cassettes a few weeks ago after I used my last spare. Exception: one bike has a 7 speed cassette, but I don't put too many miles on that bike.

But if you want to keep running to the latest out of the manufacturers, go ahead. I am content to stay with good stuff that keeps working like the Energizer Bunny.
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Old 02-25-16, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by spectastic
having only 1 bb standard in your collection is good.
It's true you would need one less tool but other than that, not sure where you see the advantages? I guess in a worse case scenario I could remove one BB and install it in another bike if needed but I would likely just buy a new one.
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Old 02-25-16, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob
Happy with my 14 speed R'off. its even better in a 20" wheel.

most of my touring miles was on a simple reliable 6 speed freewheel & triple crank .

now it seems you all have to get the most complicated gear marketing offers , like it was the latest i-Phone model ..

good luck
I get your general gist of folks thinking newer is better, I certainly have issues with our consumer society, but the reality is that stuff always advances, and that's ok too. For me it always comes back to a balance of cost/performance.
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Old 02-25-16, 10:44 AM
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My tours are about where I am going to be and see, not some performance criteria for a Strava Peerage.
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Old 02-26-16, 03:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
Grit?

I have only had to replace one square taper bottom bracket, I bought a used bike for $5 USD and it needed a different one when I bought it. But I have never worn one out yet.

I did one group tour a couple years ago, there were only two mechanical failures (not counting flats) for 16 riders of loaded touring in the mountains for a week, one of those failures was a nearly new external bottom bracket. I was happy to have my square taper one.



If your external bottom brackets go out often, I can see the merit in standardizing on one.

I do not see any advantage to standardizing on parts that are really long lasting like a square taper bottom bracket. I will probably wear out at least five chains for one bottom bracket, so in my opinion it makes more sense to standardize on chains and cassettes. All of my bikes except an old 3 speed use the same eight speed chains. And all my bikes with cassettes use the same eight speed 11/32 cassette, I just bought three more cassettes a few weeks ago after I used my last spare. Exception: one bike has a 7 speed cassette, but I don't put too many miles on that bike.

But if you want to keep running to the latest out of the manufacturers, go ahead. I am content to stay with good stuff that keeps working like the Energizer Bunny.
Hmm. You have a point. I was just eager to ditch the vintage stuff. Eg. Quill stems, vintage calipers that never actuate symmetrically.. square taper got lumped in there as well.

I asked my old lbs to take off the square taper bb on a frame I bought. I told them they could keep the bb. They threw it away. Ithe never occurred to me those are longer lasting than external bb. But I'll likely stick to hollowtech, just because I like having less tools, and bbs are cheap
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Old 02-26-16, 03:37 AM
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Originally Posted by spectastic
Hmm. You have a point. I was just eager to ditch the vintage stuff. Eg. Quill stems, vintage calipers that never actuate symmetrically.. square taper got lumped in there as well.
How did the quill stems get lumped in with single-pivot calipers? I'd tend to put them in the same realm as square taper BB; older style, but nothing particularly wrong with them.
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Old 02-26-16, 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by HTupolev
How did the quill stems get lumped in with single-pivot calipers? I'd tend to put them in the same realm as square taper BB; older style, but nothing particularly wrong with them.
Several of them. Can't easily replace stem since most of them are around 90mm, and I want my bike to fit right. The forks they come with are usually associated with old calipers, which require hole drilling to make compatible with modern calipers. Steel forks are heavy. Only compatible with 26 handlebars, while modern compact handlebars use 31.8...

I ditche'd vintage because of compatibility issues with modern stuff
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