Can't agree with the OPs premise since I know lots of people who have changed out almost everything on their race bikes while my touring bike is essentially unchanged (r. derailleur and shifters replaced when the original ones broke and wear items replaced as needed - tires, freewheel, brake pads, one rim).

This sums it up pretty good.
p.s Love the look of your Bianchi, Doug. Sky blue is my colour too. My old Miyata tourer was sky blue but got a grey fork somewhere down the line, so pretty similar :) Got the same colour on my Bob Jackson now, but with matching fork.
Do like the look with a different fork colour tho' :beer:

[MENTION=147740]prathmann[/MENTION], When I built my first touring bike a few years ago I followed the advice of experienced touring riders on this forum. Because I heeded their advice, sometimes in minor disagreement, that touring bike is the least 'upgraded' bike I've ever had in spite of it being a parts bin / budget build. After my first loaded experience, I fully fell into line. :) So far the only replaced items have been a saddle and tires.

Brad

The way I look at it, is that if I'm going to be spending $600-$700 on a bike, it better be ready to go right out of the box.

That's not that much money for a good bike... Doesn't mean it can't be done, lots of good bikes at that price range. But for me a complete bike, at that price, with all the functionalities I want / need just isn't doable.
I get a frame with that money and have to add everything else on it as well.

I found a complete Karate Monkey with 36-spoke wheels, XT hubs, and a Sram X9 drivetrain for $450. Patience yields incredible deals.

In reference to the OP's question, it seems pretty apparent to me that most people don't plunk down $4,000+ for a custom bike unless they have a pretty good idea about what they want based on years of experience. My assumption is that a person who is willing to make that kind of financial commitment has probably spent a fair amount of time, money, and effort on other bikes, etc. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but rarely would a person just go out and buy a custom touring bicycle without going through trials and tribulations and expense.

It's enough money for a good bike. I've toured in lots of places on a bike that cost a whole lot less.:)

Most of our bikes were never ready to go right out of the box. I'd go a step further and say that most bikes don't come out of the box ready to tour.

Although, to me, that begs a second question: if that is the normal touring bike buying experience, why sell the bike completely assembled to begin with, or why not at least offer a customizable order sheet like a car?

Almost all customers see bikes as a unit. For every bike-savvy tourist that buys a LHT, there are nine bike-illiterate weekend warriors and college kids buying one to putz around 3x a year.

To that end, we are not the driving force in the market. We may define trends and we may condemn bikes that don't check enough boxes, but as long as an LHT complete build has "enough" touring chops that it can stand alone, it will sell to the blind masses. Now, the blind masses are a fickle group, and so they won't buy the LHT if the Salsa Marrakesh or the Jamis Aurora looks like a better deal. So, Surly will carefully pick and choose components, scrape the bottom of the barrel for stems and seatposts, and generally offer a sub-optimal build to meet the price point demanded by 9/10 people.

You can do a built-to-order LHT- surly sells frames, and bike shops are happy to facilitate. You lose the collective bargaining power Surly uses to get components at 30-40% less on a complete build than if you buy them individually, so your complete bike will cost 30-40% more.

Forgive my ignorance of current bikes, but are that many touring-type base models sold to people that putz around 3x a year? Seems like a costly purchase for something that isn't being used on a regular basis.

As to the rest, would it cost me 30-40% more? Presumably, the parts I am going to add cost no more whether the frame came with other parts that I paid for or not. To me, it sounds like I would just have the same add-on cost, but a higher base cost. I guess I could always strip and sell the OEM parts and make back some money, but it still sounds like paying for something I am never going to use. I'm genuinely curious, BTW, I've never bought a new bike and immediately swapped parts. It just seems more logical to me that if more than one or two things were getting taken off and replaced you would start with the frame and build up.

I agree! However, it is usually more expensive to build from the frame up, at least with new parts. The bonus is that you get exactly what you want. This bike was built up much differently than a stock Surly LHT. It also costed more. Mixing and matching components is not as easy as some folks would like us to believe, e.g., road and mountain bike compatibility.

I believe that a stock bike is a good choice for the inexperienced person. It has most of the right parts, and can be tweaked as experience is gained.
http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/y...1077356756.jpg

On a complete bike the saddle is usually the first thing to go, followed by gearing changes. Manufacturers vary from year to year. A few years ago the REI Randonee was the closest to my idea of a good touring bike: low gears, STI shifters etc. However, their newer models have reverted to the "semi-road bike" gearing.

You would be shocked on both counts.

First off, the MAJORITY of bikes sold in the US are rarely used. Some are never used. My local shops sees bikes that are ridden to the point of complete failure about as often as they see basically unridden bikes coming in for a "tune-up" because 10 years in storage has rotted tires/housing.

They had a pair of Serottas come in that they sold in the late 90's for like $2,000 apiece, new in all ways with a nice coating of dust. They just weren't ridden.

On my first tour, my buddy rode a Schwinn Paramount in almost mint condition because his grandfather bought it in the 1980's after winning the lottery, and then never used it. It's a waste, and it's the norm. Not every bike sold is treasured; many are considered to be toys, or they fulfill a sudden impulsive new year's resolution that doesn't pan out, or people don't get fitted properly and stop riding because it hurts. Sad truth!


Second point, the cost. The axiom my mechanic taught me is that in order to get your money's worth on a bike build, you need to own two out of three things:

• Wheels/Tires
• Frame
• Components

If you own 2/3, it's worth it to buy the missing piece and build a new bike. If you only own 1/3, it's a better deal to buy a fully equipped bike, strip the parts you don't like, and sell them on eBay or Craigslist.

So, if I have a nice XT Groupset and I want to put it on an LHT, it's almost certainly in my favor to buy a fully equipped LHT, strip off all the stock components, sell them, and put on my own components. That will be cheaper than buying a wheelset and a frame. Dang!


If this seems like a shill, remember that the bike industry is driven in large part by service. Companies are willing to "eat" the cost of selling a bike with such huge discounts on stock parts because they hope to make back their loss through the service of the bike over a long period of time.

That's the idea, anyways. Shimano selling groupsets through third-party online vendors for less than wholesale is a gross aberration that needs to be put down.

Not entirely clear to me. The amount of money that your are willing to put on something is (also if not more) function of your means. I am personally in a state of disbelief when I look at the prices of high end road bikes, often purchased, or so it seems, by wealthy middle-or-no-longer-so-middle-aged guys riding 50kms or less on sunny Sundays, wearing blinding lycras.

hmmm.... one question might be -- what is the ultimate touring bike. Unanswerable, because it depends on what you try to achieve. So it has to be broken down into smaller chunks. Such as -- under what circumstances does it make sense to install a carbon drive + rohloff hub?

Another question might be -- what gives you the most bang for the money, at various price points (maybe you can afford a $250 touring machine, maybe $2000, maybe price is not an issue).

But back to my initial motivation to interject -- people who know very well, may well know that there is no point in paying $4k for a touring rig.

I don't honestly think I would be that surprised, just kinda figured the impulse buys would be far more along the lines of carbon racers or high end MTBs than touring models. I did watch two older adults buying their first bikes since they were kids walk out the door with almost $3000 in bikes and accessories and clothing while waiting to buy some lube this weekend...

And that is a good point you have there. I suppose if one were looking at changing out everything, it would make more sense to start from the base and build up, rather than just replacing what came with it for a lesser upgrade.

There is a joy in building a bike up from a bare frame, carefully ordering components one at a time. That's worth something. And many people love the experience because the bike feels more personal, and maintenance is no longer a mystery.

When helping friends get into cycling, I always recommend starting on a nice used bike. I helped Kelley pick out a 90's MTB with XT components, and after she had about 1,500 miles on it of touring and commuting, she had no problem dropping cash for a Surly Ogre. We were both glad we stepped into the pool slowly.

I hooked my mom up with a resurrected Raleigh 3-speed from the 1950's, restored by my LBS. She bought a helmet on her way out the door, so the LBS was happy. She's only out $200 or so, and that bike will be all she needs for the 3 rides she takes a year. And, you know what, those three rides will be the best thing ever and it's ok that she doesn't use it more. She uses her yoga mat every day.

Let's see, big brick bookstores (B.Dalton, Waldenbooks, etc.) undercut local book shops and mostly drove them out of business; then Amazon.com undercut the brick bookstores, mostly driving them out of business. Did this hurt consumers? Sure, I always enjoyed browsing for hours in bookstores, and having a place where we could hold chess club, but I love getting substantial discounts at Amazon, too. Also, and just as important to me, I like the reviews--good and bad--for items that I am considering purchasing. So I vote yes, Shimano keep selling discounted parts through wholesellars for those who wish to do their own customization!

I don't get my books repaired at a local bookstore.

I don't see why? It's been my experience that many components, including Shimano groupsets and their components sold independently, are priced under US wholesale by German online retailers. Such that it is now, maybe, reasonable to build custom from frame + components.

Yeah, but do you sponsor a chess club at your LBS? :rolleyes:

A couple of years ago I bought a 2010 Cannondale T2 touring bike for less than a third of the new cost. The guy got it to commute to work with, "rode" it for three months, and put in in storage for 4 years. It was just like new.

Last year I picked up a 2014 42 cm LHT for my daughter at $500. The woman who sold it planned on doing a big tour, but it never materialized. The bike was also in like new condition.

Building a frame up wasn't more expensive because the individual components were over-valued. it was expensive because the stock components on complete builds were grossly undervalued, and that was fine since bike shops selling more complete bikes in simple transactions would generate service revenue down the line (and, with people enjoying a bike, they might upgrade components at their true cost anyways! Like we do!)

If you drop the price of components to their basic distribution and manufacturing costs, only Shimano can make a very narrow profit. The LBS, which needs a 30-540% higher sell price to cover things like labor, rent, electricity, coffee... Well, they can't compete because they would have to take a loss on all Shimano parts. So, their customers simply stop shopping there.

I am not anti-capitalist and there's nothing wrong with online shopping, but Shimano has the power to define the market. If they operate the way they operate, it's (in my opinion) short-sighted because they will be the only ones to profit. The local bike shops (corrupt and uncorrupt, friendly and unfriendly alike) are at risk of becoming sparse, and with no accessible repair and service, how many will continue to ride?


If Shimano checks online resellers at a certain market price, they can keep everyone on the same playing field, and everyone wins. Customers, sellers, shops, Shimano, everyone. It worked great that way for about 10 years.

I can imagine, I do all my own computer building, that pride in what you put together is definitely there too. All my bikes are old C&Vs that I "rescued", and the ripping them apart and rehabbing them and building them back up is as enjoyable to me as actually riding them. Even the few bits I am putting on my touring bike I'm rebuilding right now have been quite fun to shop around and piece together.

Good analysis. I just bought a World Troller frame, and will move all parts over from my existing Troll, and rebuild the Troll with a new 1x11 Shimano XT M8000 groupset. Already have extra wheels, so I'm getting a decent bike for less than $450, that will have fairly new wheels and brand new components. I assume your last sentence was added for humor, but if not, please elaborate. From a consumer's point of view, low cost, high quality parts are awesome.

Scroll up two or three posts for my opinions!

I see how it could hurt the small independent LBSs, but I do my own wrenching, so what difference would it make? The last two bikes I bought were from a shop in California and a shop in Pennsylvania. The last wheelset I bought was from a shop in Milwaukee. I purchased based on price, knowing pretty much what I wanted. How does paying more for the same thing benefit me as a consumer?

You've just perfectly highlighted the problem. Short-term, your way is ideal.

Long-term, the loss of a LBS will mean less people will own and use bikes, which will reduce the amount of people riding in your area. This will slowly eliminate cycling clubs, and it will be much harder to get bike lanes maintained in your town (or create them, if they aren't already there). The used parts market will dry up, and good advice for complex problems will be harder and harder to find as mechanics switch careers. Drivers will stop paying as much attention to cyclists as they are less and less present on the road, making it a lot less safe to ride around.

Is it likely that the entire cycling world will collapse? Of course not. Is there a possibility that you will feel the ripple effects of Shimano's decision? Absolutely. And I think that's a shame when there's an alternative close at hand.

Just because you CAN have something at a certain cost, doesn't mean it's smart or sustainable to do so.

I am not familiar with the economics of independent bicycle shops. I don't know what proportion of their business is made of sales of complete bikes, components and service. I'd be surprised if the industry were decimated by aggressive component pricing. There will always be, I assume, the local road racing team and other niches. I also find that in our city, one can find a couple of bike coops and large sporting goods stores providing repair and tune up services.

At the other end of the spectrum, Surly prohibits online sales of their bikes/frames, arguably to support their network of retailers. Not sure this is in their best interest. Almost convinced this is not in my best interest.

Call me selfish, but it is not important to me whether a particular LBS adapts and survives or closes their doors forever. And promoting the expansion of cycling or not is not my mission in life. I just want to get out there and ride. The smart LBSs have large online sales departments and compete with other online-only sellers. The idea of supporting your local economy has pretty much gone out the window. The reason is, that people don't want to pay the middleman a large fee for selling them something. The groupset I just purchased was from a LBS in Oregon and will arrive by UPS tomorrow (free shipping). If I could even find it locally, calling and driving around to several stores, paying sales tax and full retail, I would be out probably $300 extra. No thanks.