I get it now. It all depends on the definition of upgrade.

I would want a touring bike to come with less in a sense, but not with stuff I have to replace. The saddle of course being the exception. They have to put something on or the bike would look odd in the store but most people have a personal preference for saddles so it is a given it will be replaced.

The pedals are another area of personal preference. Some people like cleated shoes while others prefer normal street wear. Others prefer toe clips or wide platforms. The compromise would be a catch all dual purpose pedal but that could be more expensive and would give some half of what they want and half of what they will never use.

Some people prefer front and back racks, others back only others front only. Some may go the bike packing route. Adding a certain rack system would lead some to have to replace components.

Bottle cages seem standard but there again, some people want a certain style, like perhaps the Salsa everything, or just a certain material like carbon, Al. plastic etc... They may even want specific colours either to match the bike or the rack system.

Fenders I would not want stock either. What if one runs skinny tires and complains there is too much clearance. The next runs fat tires and complains there is not enough. The third complains because they wanted the hammered metal look etc...

As you say, you want to spend L500 adding things to your personal bike. The other side of the coin (pun intended) is that you pay L500 more for the bike from the store, with all that stuff on it, and still want to "upgrade" parts because they aren't exactly what you want. At least this way you get what you want without the replacement.

I haven't monkeyed much with my Trek 520.

OK, serious question: as you move up on the component range, from mid-range to high end, what are you actually getting in benefit? It was always my understanding that as you moved up, you were generally sacrificing durability for weight, and the higher end stuff, while more precise with some less slop and tighter tolerances, required more fiddling to keep in proper tune. Is that a fair understanding, or am I wrong in that?

Non-serious addition to a non-serious thread: as to why people swap out far more on a touring bike than any other bike, it is simply because there are far more parts on a touring bike to swap out than any other bike.

I have had a similar debate regarding scuba gear over the years.

Some people try to optimize their gear so that they have the best (read expensive), seemingly most reliable components available in an attempt to avoid failures. This seems to make sense conventionally but what I find is that they sometimes become overly fearful and less likely to be able to cope with those failures should they occur - often feeling the need to scrub a dive or entire trip. They begin to believe they need things to be "perfect" in order to do the activity. OTOH, I subscribe to the notion of accepting failures as an anticipated part of the activity and put my eggs in the being able to cope with sub optimal conditions category.

Bikes are the same way. You can have the most advanced, fancy systems in the world but if you can't fix them, or find parts easily, in some way they become a problem rather than an enhancement. That is why loaded touring tends towards simple and durable at the slight expense of performance. You may get there an hour later but it's better than not getting there at all.

Rather than buying fancier components why not buy tools and learn to service the components one already has. That would provide a far greater benefit on tour IMO.

If you are customizing your bike by adding accessories, that is normal and should be budgeted into any bike purchase. If you are replacing new components that came with the bike, then perhaps you bought the wrong bike.

I kept my old motobecane touring bike stock for almost 30 years. and did plenty of touring on it. Same seat, same pedals, same everything. It was only when my body really started changing that I needed to change things on the bike. On my newer touring bike, VO Campeur, I built it up from the frame with components that I had on hand from another bike. I don't know if they're ideal, but they work for me, and I will probably not change them. I bought a 15 year NOS Trek 520 for my son, and he rode it loaded completely stock. I only added a low-rider rack to it.

If you pay any attention at all to the touring forum, you quickly realize that people who tour are of all different ages and abilities, from young teenagers to people in their 80's. Additionally, there are people from many different geographic, and more importantly, different topographic areas. There are different styles of touring, from off road to credit card to ultra light. Given that touring in its totality is a niche market, you cannot expect a company to be able to satisfy a large group of buyers with any single build. As stated in other posts, Surly, Fuji, Trek, Salsa, Thorn, and may others do a pretty good job of getting most things right for loaded touring at a reasonable price. And I haven't even mentioned recumbents and trikes commonly used for touring.

If there was only one way to tour, and everyone was in the same physical shape, there would very little to discuss on this forum. What troubles me is when people make recommendations and suggestions about bikes that they like as if their suggestion is applicable to all bicycle tourists. There simply is no perfect touring bike, despite what the glossy ads say.

Certainly not perfect for everyone all the time no mater where they will go.

This pretty much sums it up. I would ask who said you need to change any component? For some OEM components work just fine and are happy with their bike right off the shelf. Others find a specific need certain components do not meet, others find fun and pleasure in making the bike their own by swapping stuff out, so changing components is the answer. I do not think what you are asking is limited to touring bikes, some riders swap components out on all styles of bikes.

In terms of swapping things out, I don't see how it would matter as long as you stay within the compatibility realm you want. For instance, if you're deciding between 5800 105, Ultegra 6800, and Dura Ace 9000, your choice will have no effect on which components you can compatibly swap in later.

Higher-end components are lighter because they're made of fancier materials and have much better build quality. For sprockets in some transitions this might mean reduced longevity (i.e. if a steel cog is switched for an aluminum one), but for most stuff higher-end parts are very tough. FD-9000 versus FD-5800 is a good example of a top-end component just being better in every way.

Less slop if anything means less fiddling to keep in tune, since it needs more error before offsets start randomly causing issues.

before buying a bike, always read the reviews and comments from people who own the bike. Many say the brakes are toss. I have not ridden with the bike fully loaded yet, but if I do find that the brakes are bad, I will try Kool Stop Salmon pads, and if that does not sort the problem, I will change the brakes like many others have

Gears are fine. This is what mine looked like when it was delivered (it needs lots to get it tour ready):

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/OTAwWDE2MD...W5pM8/$_57.JPG

this is what you get in the UK for £1 100.00 (approx $1 550.00 USD) ....

add decent fenders, saddle (yes, the saddle is bad), racks, pannier bags and you can add another £500 ($700 USD) to the price. I think I will be spending more than £500 on upgrades. I just bought a Gilles Berthoud Aravis saddle for £168 and have ordered 2 Cleen Canteen waterbottles with cages for £70 .... my pedals were over £30, my velo orange stainless steels fenders were £70, and decent Carradice panniers cost £120 etc etc

but I will tweak it to the way I want it

These are not "upgrades." The saddle and pedals are the exception, but as stated above, is usually normal for any bike.

Some of us, namely my own self, simply didn't know exactly what we (I) wanted when we (I) started. I looked at my bike the other day and realized the only original parts left are the frame, brakes and front wheel... I would have replaced the front wheel, too, but I had to cut back somewhere. Next time, I will likely just buy a frame, and re-purpose some of those spare parts I've accumulated somehow.

Ouch. OTOH, I really like the frame, brakes and front wheel that are original.

The bike I bought and used on my trip last year I only added on a front fender and a rack, otherwise I didn't change a thing. Yeah, I did put on the tires I like but I would do that with any bike since none of them come with the tires I routinely use.

I am failing to grasp this thread's concept. Everyone needs to start somewhere... and buying a bike is step one to riding a bike.

There is not "one touring bike to rule them all."

There are only riders which use the equipment they have and use it well... or those that have no clue what they want and don't know why they chose anything. But after time, they will learn to use what they have, evaluate what they like and don't like, then update their setup accordingly. Eventually it gets to the point where so many setup configurations have occurred that it is better to start with a clean slate; being a new bike or frame or build it from the ground up.

As of this moment, there are a number of $1500-$2000 capable touring bicycles. If you have panniers and equipment, they are good to go out of the box. But if you really know what you are looking for and what works for you, some of these may not be the best option. But everyone needs to start somewhere...

and thats why I chose a Surly LHT .... would have liked the one with disk brakes, but I got mine at a good price .... perfect fit and the colour I wanted. I can get a new surly front fork that can accomodate disk brakes up front if the need arises.... it's a bike to keep and I don't mind splashing out money to customise it the way I like...

mine has the 26 inch wheels, but rides like a cadillac.... no Strava records will ever be broken, but that's not what I wanted it for. I looked at several touring bikes and my final shortlist was between the LHT and the Koga world traveller-s ... a lot more money than the LHT (I used to own a Koga Miyata road champ and they are great bikes)


... but the Surly appealed to me more.... mine will be a good bike once I have customised it :)

I have it. The very first bike I toured on, I took apart before leaving. That was a mistake, because my uneducated tinkering caused a major rear hub failure. But I learned a huge amount from that and other experiences with that bike, a basic hybrid I bought as my first-ever bike back in 1997.

Oddly, the Fuji Touring that I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread was subject to a major tinker very late in its active life. I was never happy with the way it tracked whether loaded or unloaded. I had to concentrate all the time to maintain a line. I finally figured out it was the unicrown fork and its geometry (this after more than 60,000km of riding). I replaced it with a Surly fork, and the bike is now much better to ride, although others take precedence these days.

There is another aspect that to me (and it may only be me) is important as a tinkerer. There is a bit of my soul in the bikes that I modify or build from scratch, and I have kept them even though they aren't used that often, such as the Fuji. I have had many other bikes, including a small hire fleet, but those that I have sold have not been modified so much or were built up from scratch with a frame only, so therefore didn't have much soul in them.

I suppose if those bikes were eligible for sale, I would strip them back down to a frame and keep the bits to go on a new one.

Oh and the nicest riding bike out of them all has been, for a long time, an old Shogun 400 lugged steel frame that I picked up for nothing at a local rubbish dump, and that I spent $400 on building with nice wheels and hubs and bullhorn bars. I've toured in Europe with it, done a full year of centuries a month, and it's still a bike I thoroughly enjoy riding.

There are many different bicycle luggage racks and there are a few different thicknesses of rack tubing. Then there are different mounting systems amongst panniers/saddlebags. also, many bicycling tourists (or bicyclists in general) have particular wants in a saddle. Ditto for tire width which in turn affects fender width. Therefore many manufacturers put on a relatively inexpensive saddle which can be swapped out either at the point of sale at the time of sale or later when the rider is more sure of their needs/wants. i think this is why most bikes touring bikes don't come with racks and panniers/saddlebags.

I know that years ago if I bought a bike at a local bicycle shop and bought the racks, panniers and any other accessories at the same time, I ould get up to 25% off those items and usually have them installed free.

In short the reason most touring bikes aren't ready to tour with out of the box is because bicyclists are individuals with individual needs or wants and sometimes those needs or wants are unique.

Cheers

That's the second time this week I have come across this reference to an LHT. The first was a young New Jersey woman doing a tour of my home state, Tasmania. She was actually riding a Salsa 29er with all touring gear on board, including a single-sided fork rack with a dry bag attached.

We got discussing the bikes, and she said she had previously owned an LHT, and it rode like a Cadillac, but her touring aspirations were now more directed to off-road and gravel riding, hence the switch to the Salsa... the LHT simply wouldn't have taken the big tyres she wanted and wouldn't have been as lively as she wanted for handling single-track.

If you're in Australia, Rowan, have you seen the Vivente bikes? In terms of touring bikes ready to ride straight away, the Deccan is hard to beat.

Deccan - World Randonneur

well, your particular situation doesn't apply here. the brand bike you wanted was
available in the configuration you wanted..........but due to price, you CHOOSED not
to purchase that one. there would be no need to change out the brakes or the
fork or the hubs in your case.

OP is in a similar situation. for six months (or more) prior to purchase he extolled
the virtues of the 920 while pooping on the LHT as an inferior unpolished turd.
he was fixated on the quasi-mercenary look and ignored any and all advice. he
knew before spending two freakin' grand of borrowed money that he'd need to
replace the brakes and gears and shifters, and i don't know how much else. he
knew the wheels were crap, but instead of heeding advice, posted links to an
exotic prototype $30,000 tandem hand-built by underpants gnomes.

When Machka's favourite bike was stolen, we looked at a variety of replacements, including a Vivente but it certainly wasn't this model, but its predecessor. It seemed well-equipped, but at the time just wasn't quite what she wanted, and I think there were issues in getting one in the size she wanted.

Looking at the bike as linked, that sure is a well-equipped one. I would change out the saddle for a Brooks B17, and upgrade to a higher Shimano level of pedal, but that's all personal preference. I like the idea of the TRP Spyre discs. I would also not be quite certain about the level of shifters (again, my preference has been Ultegra, but as alluded to earlier in this thread, the Sora could be regarded as a lower level but robust option).

Yeah, I could pick it apart, but for someone looking to hit the road straight away, this bike doesn't need anything else. And the bonus is that it's equipped to be a commuter as well with the dynohub and lights.

The other models also look interesting.

There doesn't, however, appear to be any mention of weight on the website.

And I could probably, with some astute internet buying, build up a similar bike for less cost.

Footnote: Oh look! I just discovered that one of the Tasmanian dealers is my former randonneuring riding partner!

Find a therapist. you have obvious emotional problems

http://www.bikeforums.net/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by saddlesoreshttp://www.bikeforums.net/images/but...post-right.pngwell, your particular situation doesn't apply here. the brand bike you wanted was
available in the configuration you wanted..........but due to price, you CHOOSED not
to purchase that one. there would be no need to change out the brakes or the
fork or the hubs in your case

OP is in a similar situation. for six months (or more) prior to purchase he extolled
the virtues of the 920 while pooping on the LHT as an inferior unpolished turd.
he was fixated on the quasi-mercenary look and ignored any and all advice. he
knew before spending two freakin' grand of borrowed money that he'd need to
replace the brakes and gears and shifters, and i don't know how much else. he
knew the wheels were crap, but instead of heeding advice, posted links to an
exotic prototype $30,000 tandem hand-built by underpants gnomes.

No he doesn't! That's frustration and possible a bit of anger showing. Both occurr when someone spends a lot of time in good faith advising someone about something and the potential pitfulls of someone's potential choice only to have all that advice and the advice of many others all of whom are VERY EXPERIENCED in the field the OP posted about, TOTALLY IGNORED and then have the OP start yet another thread but this one complaining about the problems they are now having because they didn't followthe original advice given to them.

I either put such people on an ignore list or I refrain from offering them advice. Whty should I or others takethe time to compose a well thought out and cohsive reply if we know in advance it's just going to be ignored?

Frustration isan emotional thing but you bring that upon yourself.

Btw, I know a fellow who circa 1975 went to Victoria, B.B., Canada, bought a chep used 10-speed and then rode to Newfoundland.. THAT shows you do NOT have to have a multi-thousands dollars bicycle in order to tour long distances.

Good luck and cheers

I'm 62 yrs old the clock is ticking down. I don't have time to waste. I'm gonna get the best bicycle I can afford, before they strap me into a wheel chair.
My father-in-law died in front of me while I attempted CPR. So I think about my death.
Live well !!

Time to put this thread to rest.

Closed.