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Katy in Crisis

Old 04-20-16, 11:40 AM
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Katy in Crisis

There a bill being sponsored in the Missouri legislature to allow ATVs on the Katy trail. I think that all cyclists who go to the Katy do so to get away from cars and other motor vehicles. ATVs on the Katy would be a big problem, and likely would drive most of the cyclists away, and collapse the Katy economy. If you live in Missouri call, write, email your Representative and Senator.
All of us need to call, write, email the sponsor. Wouldn't hurt to mention how much money you spent on your Katy Trip, even the day trip folks. Sponsor is;


Rep. Jay Houghton
Mo House of Representatives
201 W. Capital Ave
Rm. 412B
Jefferson City, MO 65101
573-751-3649
Jay.Houghton@house.mo.gov
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Old 04-20-16, 12:28 PM
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Yea, saw this a two days ago and signed the petition. If you have any doubts what ATV's would do to the trail, look no further than Wisconsin where some nice cycling trails are so torn up by ATV's that unless you have a suspension mountain bike, they're too rough to ride. We won't even mention the safety factor of being hit by an ATV moving at 30 mph or better .

https://www.change.org/p/missouri-st...-trail-hb-2047

ADVOCACY ALERT: Bill to allow ATVs on the Katy Trail moving forward in the Missouri House; contact your representative today | Missouri Bicycle and Pedestrian Federation

Last edited by robow; 04-20-16 at 12:31 PM.
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Old 04-20-16, 01:30 PM
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Thanks for the extra info.
I found it but did not know how to post it.

I just talked to the sponsors aide. Current law allows for utility vehicles once a month, he wants to change it to every Wednesday. Utility vehicles are the side by side things. ATV is a single person seat. The blue handicapped tags will be required. Age limit of 60 +, speed limit 15 mph. Seems as though this Rep has a project going of giving rides to disabled Vets. Must live near the Katy and wants legally to expand from 1 Wed. to every Wed. riding on the Katy. Our Vets deserve everything they get and more. Including respect from cyclists. This is not about young hoodlums running down cyclists. Personally I'm backing off this issue. Although he was very foolish not to approach the cycling community with our concerns. Of course she's a politician and I could have been getting a snow job. I'll ask about horses and report back.

Horses are allowed from Clinton to Sedalia, and from Tebbets to Portland, Mokane is in the middle of that section.

Last edited by Squeezebox; 04-20-16 at 02:13 PM.
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Old 04-20-16, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Squeezebox
Utility vehicles are the side by side things.
The bill says nothing about "side by side things," whatever those are. It defines "utility vehicle" as "any vehicle" that meets certain criteria. And access is not limited to vets.

https://house.mo.gov/billtracking/bil...it/HB2047C.PDF
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Old 04-20-16, 03:25 PM
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I'm not saying I support the bill, but it is disabled people 60+. 15 mph. The definition of utility vehicle is the side by side things. and golf carts. We know what they are. And it's only Wednesdays. Again not a bunch of teenage hooligans intentionally running over cyclists at 40mph 24/7.
Kawasaki make a popular side by side thing check out their site.
Old farts getting out and having fun makes them happy. Happiness improves health.
You and your bicycle are not the center of the universe. Maybe think about sharing a little.
It takes a village!!
Please!
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Old 04-20-16, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Squeezebox
The definition of utility vehicle is the side by side things. and golf carts. We know what they are. And it's only Wednesdays. Again not a bunch of teenage hooligans intentionally running over cyclists at 40mph 24/7.
Kawasaki make a popular side by side thing check out their site.
Old farts getting out and having fun makes them happy. Happiness improves health.
You and your bicycle are not the center of the universe. Maybe think about sharing a little.
It takes a village!!
Please!
The definition of "utility vehicle" is what the statute says, not what you or I think it means. Do you know for a fact that there are no single seat vehicles that meet the statutory definition?

And where did I even imply that my I think me and my bicycle are the center of the universe?

As you have done in the past, you are trying to inflame. Won't work on me. Now if you will excuse me, I need to pack for a tour.
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Old 04-20-16, 04:29 PM
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Doesn't sound like they have a clear definition either. Our opinions count for little their's does.
Just read the bill and see what you think.

Last edited by Squeezebox; 04-20-16 at 04:39 PM.
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Old 04-20-16, 06:10 PM
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FWIW, the Down East Sunrise Trail, in eastern Maine, is multi-use and is completely open to all ATV's.

I'm not sure about motorized dirt bikes, but 3 wheel and quads, as well as snowmobiles in winter, use the 85 mile long trail.

I have never read nor heard of issues related to speed or cyclists feeling overcome by ATV users. I have read comments from cyclists that ATV use is heaviest on the weekends but never heard of issues.

As far as I can tell, the trail is partly maintained by the ATV clubs and I've never read of overuse damage either.

Just a thought.
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Old 04-20-16, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Squeezebox
Doesn't sound like they have a clear definition either. Our opinions count for little their's does.
Just read the bill and see what you think.
The definitions are clear as day in the proposal! Also, it is for 2 days a month. 1st and 3rd Wednesday. I just don't like how it is open ended for the Department of natural resources to administer rules to enforce provisions in the bill. I feel as though the Department of Natural Resources should comment as well.

"For purposes of this section, the term “golf cart” shall mean a motor vehicle that
is designed and manufactured for operation on a golf course for sporting or recreational
purposes and that is not capable of exceeding speeds of twenty miles per hour. For
purposes of this section, the term “all-terrain vehicle” shall have the same meaning as it
is defined in section 301.010."

RSmo 301.010
"(1) "All-terrain vehicle", any motorized vehicle manufactured and used exclusively for off-highway use which is fifty inches or less in width, with an unladen dry weight of one thousand five hundred pounds or less, traveling on three, four or more nonhighway tires; "
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Old 04-20-16, 07:14 PM
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What takes a village?

...it takes a village of atvs to ruin a trail?
...it takes a village to accept a proposed change which would accomodate a specific lawmaker's let project?
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Old 04-20-16, 07:14 PM
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Bottom line, nothing in that bill is good for cyclists, it's just how bad the medicine will taste.
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Old 04-20-16, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
What takes a village?

...it takes a village of atvs to ruin a trail?
...it takes a village to accept a proposed change which would acomadate a specific lawmaker's let project?
Sometimes we need to take care of the old folks that have done for us in the past. I think you are being very selfish. I read in the bill the low speed utility vehicles were for every Wed. only. blue handicapped tags required. Since there are 2 horse stables that got special permission for their sections of the trail. Just maybe this utility vehicle thing could be limited to his section of the trail. I'll call back tomorrow.
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Old 04-20-16, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve B.
I have never read nor heard of issues related to speed or cyclists feeling overcome by ATV users. I have read comments from cyclists that ATV use is heaviest on the weekends but never heard of issues.

As far as I can tell, the trail is partly maintained by the ATV clubs and I've never read of overuse damage either.

Just a thought.
As one who used to off road vehicles in college, I can contradict this. All it takes is one group of jerks to find a wet spot and play "bury the vehicle", and it will happen. Dicks they may be, but I know guys that will go out and rip up trails just so regular street 4x4s can't get down it, only dedicated off road vehicles will get through.

Granted, most are good reasonable people, but even from regular use the non-motorized MUP paths by me get ripped up when wet by mountain bikes, quads will cut much bigger trenches that get real fun when dried out.

The speed and heavy traffic concerns may or may not be warranted, but the ripping up the trail in wet conditions is a very real concern.
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Old 04-20-16, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Squeezebox
Sometimes we need to take care of the old folks
Then purchase bicycles for those old folks.
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Old 04-20-16, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by robow
Bottom line, nothing in that bill is good for cyclists, it's just how bad the medicine will taste.
I have a 93 yr old mother-in-law. It's real tough to get her out to the front porch to get some sun, and fresh air. Takes 2 people. Is it good for me? Heck no!! is it it good for her? very much! Think about someone else sometimes.
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Old 04-20-16, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by robow
Then purchase bicycles for those old folks.
Your comment is so bizzare, and so hateful to old folks I don't know what to say.
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Old 04-20-16, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Squeezebox
Your comment is so bizzare, and so hateful to old folks I don't know what to say.
Please don't take me so seriously, I know I don't.
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Old 04-20-16, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Squeezebox
I'm not saying I support the bill, but it is disabled people 60+. 15 mph. The definition of utility vehicle is the side by side things. and golf carts. We know what they are. And it's only Wednesdays. Again not a bunch of teenage hooligans intentionally running over cyclists at 40mph 24/7.
Kawasaki make a popular side by side thing check out their site.
Old farts getting out and having fun makes them happy. Happiness improves health.
You and your bicycle are not the center of the universe. Maybe think about sharing a little.
It takes a village!!
Please!
It's "disabled OR 60+", not "disabled people 60+".
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Old 04-20-16, 09:03 PM
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A few years ago..... bicycles ruled the local rails-to-trails MUPs around here. Lately it seems the park service (who manage the trails) get more jogging and walking customers on the trails. That should've been a big enough reminder that MUP use isn't going to be static. Then a couple years ago the Feds purposed a plan to return the trails to high-speed rail use. So far... high-speed (here) is still a dream.

It is a darn sad shame to see such a valuable resource as the bicycle paths becoming less valuable in the eyes of the community. Much of the MUP infrastructure was built with and maintained with either donations or federal grants. Neither funding method could be considered sustainable. It's a changing world... it always has been. I am sure the paths will be used by cyclists for decades to come. But nothing goes unchanged.
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Old 04-20-16, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Squeezebox
I think you are being very selfish.
Its selfish to want to limit the trail to walkers, joggers, hikers, cyclists, and horseback riding? Huh, seems pretty darn inclusive.

I think you are being selfish for not pushing to include mopeds and for being OK with limiting the proposal's speed and age restriction.
For shame Squeeze, i would expect more from a chamipon of the people. How dare you support a speed restriction and age restriction! Dont be ageist! Dont be selfish and try to restrict the use of the trail.
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Old 04-20-16, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Squeezebox
Your comment is so bizzare, and so hateful to old folks I don't know what to say.
Old people need exercise too. I am dealing with it regarding my rehab from 3xpass, and my 90 year old parents are dealing with it. My dad fell down three times indoors last week, he doesn't need to be jerked around in an ATV he needs physiotherapy to gain strength, or it is all downhill in the worst sense possible.
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Old 04-20-16, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by jefnvk
As one who used to off road vehicles in college, I can contradict this. All it takes is one group of jerks to find a wet spot and play "bury the vehicle", and it will happen. Dicks they may be, but I know guys that will go out and rip up trails just so regular street 4x4s can't get down it, only dedicated off road vehicles will get through.

Granted, most are good reasonable people, but even from regular use the non-motorized MUP paths by me get ripped up when wet by mountain bikes, quads will cut much bigger trenches that get real fun when dried out.

The speed and heavy traffic concerns may or may not be warranted, but the ripping up the trail in wet conditions is a very real concern.
The Bill specifies disabled people or people over 65-years old with a 15 mph speed limit, the first and third Wednesdays of the month. That does not sound like a great sacrifice to cyclists. What about electric bikes; they can easily exceed 15 mph?

Motor scooters, small motorcycles, and electric bikes share the bikes paths with cyclists in many European countries without any significant issues.
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Old 04-20-16, 09:45 PM
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Canada thinks it has this thing called the Trans Canada Trail, and the section I tried to use that is the old rail line is all ruined by ATVs. Frankly it might be the better use. Allows locals to connect, while the number of cyclists using it was zero when I went through. In the cities, yeah, but in the country, the roads are basically a better experience. But I am certainly anti ATV on a narrow trail they churned it up, and one person on an ATV can ruin the trail for all the other users. This is the notorious section that burst my Schwalbe Marathon casing.
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Old 04-20-16, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug64
The Bill specifies disabled people or people over 65-years old with a 15 mph speed limit, the first and third Wednesdays of the month. That does not sound like a great sacrifice to cyclists. What about electric bikes; they can easily exceed 15 mph?

Motor scooters, small motorcycles, and electric bikes share the bikes paths with cyclists in many European countries without any significant issues.
I'll admit, I did not read the bill, just responding to a comment here. If those are the conditions, I'll agree the outrage to be a bit extreme.

In fact, I'll expand that sentiment to say it is relatively counterproductive.

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Old 04-20-16, 09:58 PM
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Here it is, this one is a few pounds over the weight limit.

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