Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Touring
Reload this Page >

Shifting Expectations for Deore 9 spd RD & Dura Ace 10 Speed Indexed Bar End - 11-34

Notices
Touring Have a dream to ride a bike across your state, across the country, or around the world? Self-contained or fully supported? Trade ideas, adventures, and more in our bicycle touring forum.

Shifting Expectations for Deore 9 spd RD & Dura Ace 10 Speed Indexed Bar End - 11-34

Old 04-22-16, 10:19 PM
  #1  
fthomas
Fred E Fenders
Thread Starter
 
fthomas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Again! Philippines & S. California
Posts: 1,453

Bikes: Jamis Aurora Elite

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Shifting Expectations for Deore 9 spd RD & Dura Ace 10 Speed Indexed Bar End - 11-34

I purchased an 2015 Jamis Aurora Elite. I should have paid better attention to the gearing of the Shimano 105 drivetrain components.

105 Triple Road Crank
105 FD
105 GS Rear Derailleur
11-30 Shimano HG Cassette

There are a lot of hills where I live and the road gearing that came on the bike was certainly not set up for touring and carrying a load.

I tried changing out the rear cassette to a 11-32 and that seemed to be the 105 RD limits. The low gearing was not improved that much.

So, I swapped the 105 Triple for an FSA 48-38-26 crankset. The difference was really apparent, but still not low enough for me.
I finally swapped out the 105 GS RD for a Deore 9 speed mountain bike rear derailleur and an 11-34 cassette still using the 10 Speed Dura Ace Bar end, which is indexed. WOW! What a difference.

The install on everything went very smoothly and with little to no adjustment the 10 speed Dura Ace Bar End was indexing very well. I went through the adjustment procedures in Parks Blue Book and did not notice any real improvement. While on the stand it is shifting from the 11 to the 34 very smoothly pulling on the cable, but I noticed some hesitation shifting from the 34 to the next cog using the bar end.

I'm sure that the shifting will not be nearly as smooth as the 105 was, but can any of you give me an idea of what I can expect on the road and any tweaks that will improve shifting going from the 34 down?
__________________
F Thomas

"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving."
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
fthomas is offline  
Old 04-23-16, 06:52 AM
  #2  
djb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Montreal Canada
Posts: 9,320
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1270 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 77 Times in 68 Posts
the only immediate thing I can think of (without seeing and shifting the bike myself of course) is how close is the top pulley to the teeth of the 34?
If the chain seems to be touching the cogs, as in making a real sound of rubbing, the b screw of teh rd can be adjusted to pull the rd down a bit away from the 34cog in that position.

the delay you speak of could also be normal, in my experience , with larger cogged cassettes and the deore range derailleurs Ive had on bikes for the last 25 years, there is a slight delay, its not going to shift like a tighter cassette and or shorter cage derailleur.

Last edited by djb; 04-23-16 at 06:56 AM. Reason: saw you mentioned following the Parks book, so you did it yourself
djb is offline  
Old 04-23-16, 07:12 AM
  #3  
fthomas
Fred E Fenders
Thread Starter
 
fthomas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Again! Philippines & S. California
Posts: 1,453

Bikes: Jamis Aurora Elite

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by djb View Post
the only immediate thing I can think of (without seeing and shifting the bike myself of course) is how close is the top pulley to the teeth of the 34?
If the chain seems to be touching the cogs, as in making a real sound of rubbing, the b screw of teh rd can be adjusted to pull the rd down a bit away from the 34cog in that position.

the delay you speak of could also be normal, in my experience , with larger cogged cassettes and the deore range derailleurs Ive had on bikes for the last 25 years, there is a slight delay, its not going to shift like a tighter cassette and or shorter cage derailleur.
I've got a solid 6mm clearance between the top pulley and the 34T cog and it stays consistent all the way down to the 11T. This is on a Jamis Aurora Elite and one thing interesting was that the 105 GS rear derailleur that came on the bike the "B Screw" would not make contact with the tab on the frame. The Deore 9 speed the "B Screw" is actually perfectly lined up with the tab and is functional.

Just to make sure that I've got things in the process well covered I'm going to pull the chain and start from scratch. For me that means using the H and L screws to align the derailleur with the 34T and 11T cogs then reconnecting the chain. The bike is like new with less than 100 miles on it so the cable and housing are in mint condition. Initially when I lined up the derailleur with the 11T and 34T cogs it shifted pretty good on the work stand. I then went through the process of tightening the H and L adjustment screws 1/4 turn until it began to fail to shift easily and then backed them off. It was not shifting as smoothly up an down after that exercise. I also turned the barrel adjustment out six turns out counter-clockwise to allow for plenty of room for adjustment either direction. It did not require any barrel adjustment. I think that is something I am going to have to play with because it determines the indexing. This is something that I have not tackled before so I'm sure I'm in a bit of a learning curve.
__________________
F Thomas

"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving."
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
fthomas is offline  
Old 04-23-16, 11:43 AM
  #4  
djb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Montreal Canada
Posts: 9,320
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1270 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 77 Times in 68 Posts
Don't forget, the h and l limit screws are there to specifically and only limit the range of motion of the rd. Properly positioned, they shouldn't have any bearing on the actual shifting from one gear to another, other of course making sure the rd limits don't allow the chain to fall off either the 34 into the spokes or the 11t, but with the bike on the stand, the chain on, and turning the pedals it is fairly apparent by noise and looking when the limit starts to be too far.

The good thing is that you have a stand, makes playing around and learning this adjustment stuff so much easier.
Play around, look at numerous YouTube videos and you will get the hang of adjustments. Even if you make mistakes, it's not a big deal, buy some spare derailleur cables, and good cable cutter, and you're good to go for decades of doing t your own work. I bought a good parks cable cutter after never being able to cleanly cut cables before, and am glad I did.

Again, as to specifically answer your question of the 30 to 34 shift delay, I'm not sure you will be able to get a proper answer from the interwebs...
Have fun messing around, it's the best way to start to get a feeling for this stuff, I'm certainly no real mechanic but I have improved over the years derailleur wise...
djb is offline  
Old 04-27-16, 06:04 PM
  #5  
fthomas
Fred E Fenders
Thread Starter
 
fthomas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Again! Philippines & S. California
Posts: 1,453

Bikes: Jamis Aurora Elite

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by djb View Post
Don't forget, the h and l limit screws are there to specifically and only limit the range of motion of the rd. Properly positioned, they shouldn't have any bearing on the actual shifting from one gear to another, other of course making sure the rd limits don't allow the chain to fall off either the 34 into the spokes or the 11t, but with the bike on the stand, the chain on, and turning the pedals it is fairly apparent by noise and looking when the limit starts to be too far.

The good thing is that you have a stand, makes playing around and learning this adjustment stuff so much easier.
Play around, look at numerous YouTube videos and you will get the hang of adjustments. Even if you make mistakes, it's not a big deal, buy some spare derailleur cables, and good cable cutter, and you're good to go for decades of doing t your own work. I bought a good parks cable cutter after never being able to cleanly cut cables before, and am glad I did.

Again, as to specifically answer your question of the 30 to 34 shift delay, I'm not sure you will be able to get a proper answer from the interwebs...
Have fun messing around, it's the best way to start to get a feeling for this stuff, I'm certainly no real mechanic but I have improved over the years derailleur wise...
Finally completed the project. Major lesson learned - FRICTION! The original cable housing to the rear derailleur was to short and caused a kink at the barrel adjuster and I believe the original cable was to short resulting in friction. It would shift to large cog fine, but coming back down to the small cog did not work! To much friction in system.

Solved by buying cable kit. Installed new cable and increased the length of the housing at the rear derailleur from 37cm to 42cm. Shifts like a dream now.
__________________
F Thomas

"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving."
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
fthomas is offline  
Old 04-27-16, 06:11 PM
  #6  
djb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Montreal Canada
Posts: 9,320
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1270 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 77 Times in 68 Posts
well thats good.
Your example is sort of related to what others mentioned about the housings, on old bikes, you can change out cables, but if the housings are all gummy and whatnot, not to mention totally crudded up rear derailleur pivot points, you are fighting possibly against one or more sources of binding and friction that makes it so much harder to get things to shift right.
I have made so many mistakes over the years, but by actually doing hands on stuff you get better, and learn as you go. Glad its sorted out.
djb is offline  
Old 04-28-16, 05:40 AM
  #7  
veganbikes
Clark W. Griswold
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: ,location, location
Posts: 5,214

Bikes: Foundry Chilkoot Ti W/Ultegra Di2, Salsa Timberjack Ti, Cinelli Mash Work RandoCross Fun Time Machine, 1x9 XT Parts Hybrid, Co-Motion Cascadia, Specialized Langster, Pink Klein MTB, Phil Wood VeloXS Frame (w/DA 7400), Cilo Road Frame, Proteus frame

Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1190 Post(s)
Liked 50 Times in 35 Posts
I know you figured out the issues but this is also another solution:
RoadLink ? wolftoothcomponents.com

The Jamis Aurora's are decent but the Elite does lack in some areas. Companies really need to stop doing things in a race mindset and better focus on the intended purpose. Putting together a cheap hybrid is easy for them but touring bikes are a challenge for them for some reason.
veganbikes is offline  
Old 04-28-16, 11:33 AM
  #8  
fthomas
Fred E Fenders
Thread Starter
 
fthomas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Again! Philippines & S. California
Posts: 1,453

Bikes: Jamis Aurora Elite

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by veganbikes View Post
I know you figured out the issues but this is also another solution:
RoadLink ? wolftoothcomponents.com

The Jamis Aurora's are decent but the Elite does lack in some areas. Companies really need to stop doing things in a race mindset and better focus on the intended purpose. Putting together a cheap hybrid is easy for them but touring bikes are a challenge for them for some reason.
I looked at the wolftooth components link and it specifically states on their website that it is not intended for use with a triple crankset. So I discounted it straight away.

I couldn't agree more about Jamis and their race to deliver a higher end touring bike. Or was Jamis focused on delivering a heavy road bike with racks and fenders? I also have to kick myself for getting all dreamy eyed over the Aurora Elite and not paying attention to detail. In addition to totally inappropriate gearing for intended use as a touring bike, a problem the Jamis Aurora does not share at a lot less money, in my opinion they should have provided for a kickstand, slightly longer chain stays and more relaxed geometry to avoid toe overlap.

If I had it to do over I would have gone with another bike / brand all together. My dream bike is a Rivendell Atlantis, but the $2,500 frame costs is just way beyond my means. There are still good options out there from Surly. I blew off Surly because of their inability to respond to "Customer Service" emails. I figured if they can't handle a few pre-purchase questions what would warranty issues be like.

Sorry about the rant.
__________________
F Thomas

"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving."
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
fthomas is offline  
Old 04-28-16, 07:24 PM
  #9  
veganbikes
Clark W. Griswold
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: ,location, location
Posts: 5,214

Bikes: Foundry Chilkoot Ti W/Ultegra Di2, Salsa Timberjack Ti, Cinelli Mash Work RandoCross Fun Time Machine, 1x9 XT Parts Hybrid, Co-Motion Cascadia, Specialized Langster, Pink Klein MTB, Phil Wood VeloXS Frame (w/DA 7400), Cilo Road Frame, Proteus frame

Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1190 Post(s)
Liked 50 Times in 35 Posts
Originally Posted by fthomas View Post
I looked at the wolftooth components link and it specifically states on their website that it is not intended for use with a triple crankset. So I discounted it straight away.

I couldn't agree more about Jamis and their race to deliver a higher end touring bike. Or was Jamis focused on delivering a heavy road bike with racks and fenders? I also have to kick myself for getting all dreamy eyed over the Aurora Elite and not paying attention to detail. In addition to totally inappropriate gearing for intended use as a touring bike, a problem the Jamis Aurora does not share at a lot less money, in my opinion they should have provided for a kickstand, slightly longer chain stays and more relaxed geometry to avoid toe overlap.

If I had it to do over I would have gone with another bike / brand all together. My dream bike is a Rivendell Atlantis, but the $2,500 frame costs is just way beyond my means. There are still good options out there from Surly. I blew off Surly because of their inability to respond to "Customer Service" emails. I figured if they can't handle a few pre-purchase questions what would warranty issues be like.

Sorry about the rant.
Ahhh makes sense. I didn't really read it. With the compact cranks and ridiculously wide ranged cassettes you can get pretty low but having that little granny gear is quite nice.

I wouldn't spec a kickstand on that at all. I know I wouldn't want a kickstand on my touring bike unless I could find a sturdy stable one that weighs nothing and takes up little space. It is never something I use a whole lot but could be handy in some situations. The Aurora is still a great bike for touring it just has some minor flaws as all touring bikes will simply because everyone is different and their needs will be different.

Rivy makes some cool bikes and I kind of dig their ethos to a point but I still would go Co-Motion if I was going in a more custom direction or go with someone like Waterford and lug to the nines. I wouldn't discount Surly, they are a small staff and are busy busy. It sucks they didn't answer your questions but I would have gone to my local Surly dealer for that or tried to get in touch with QBP (their parent company/distributor) if that didn't work. I dug my Disc Trucker and would certainly still highly recommend it. However you didn't make a bad choice and once you get to know your Jamis and ride it a while you can see what you might want in a custom frame and save up for that.

Rant on!
veganbikes is offline  
Old 04-29-16, 12:17 AM
  #10  
fthomas
Fred E Fenders
Thread Starter
 
fthomas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Again! Philippines & S. California
Posts: 1,453

Bikes: Jamis Aurora Elite

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanks for the thoughts! Now that I have the 11-34 with a FSA Afterburner can crank 48-38-26 I think I'm finally on the right path. All other components on the Jamis Aurora Elite are pretty good along with the frame.

Cheers
__________________
F Thomas

"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving."
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
fthomas is offline  
Old 04-29-16, 11:52 AM
  #11  
veganbikes
Clark W. Griswold
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: ,location, location
Posts: 5,214

Bikes: Foundry Chilkoot Ti W/Ultegra Di2, Salsa Timberjack Ti, Cinelli Mash Work RandoCross Fun Time Machine, 1x9 XT Parts Hybrid, Co-Motion Cascadia, Specialized Langster, Pink Klein MTB, Phil Wood VeloXS Frame (w/DA 7400), Cilo Road Frame, Proteus frame

Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1190 Post(s)
Liked 50 Times in 35 Posts
Originally Posted by fthomas View Post
Thanks for the thoughts! Now that I have the 11-34 with a FSA Afterburner can crank 48-38-26 I think I'm finally on the right path. All other components on the Jamis Aurora Elite are pretty good along with the frame.

Cheers

If your bike comes spec'd with TRP brakes you are usually doing pretty good to start. Dual Piston Mechanicals or in your case Cable actuated hydros are awesome. Avid makes a fine brake in the BB7 but I think TRP Spyres are a better deal and more sensible as far as pad wear and ease of set up and adjustment.

Plus the Jamis has quality Reynolds steel which is really never a bad choice nor is the Tubus rack.
veganbikes is offline  
Old 04-29-16, 03:55 PM
  #12  
seeker333
-
 
seeker333's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,770

Bikes: yes!

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 244 Post(s)
Liked 15 Times in 14 Posts
Originally Posted by fthomas View Post
... I blew off Surly because of their inability to respond to "Customer Service" emails. I figured if they can't handle a few pre-purchase questions what would warranty issues be like...
I emailed Surly yesterday, had an answer 3 hrs later.

I've emailed them at least 3 times before, always answered promptly with complete answers. I've called them a few times too, once to inquire about availability of a long-discontinued fork in a specific color. I was surprised to learn they had one, and more surprised when they sent me a replacement fork free in the desired color.

I've also emailed and called Surly's parent company, QBP, located in the same warehouse office space in MSP, MN. Same experience, prompt good answers, and they warrantied a batch of bad Q-tubes that would break at the valve stem the first time they were inflated. Took care of me and my $21 grievance - their shipping cost was nearly what I paid for the tubes.

I recommend you try again: derby@surlybikes.com
seeker333 is offline  
Old 04-29-16, 04:12 PM
  #13  
fthomas
Fred E Fenders
Thread Starter
 
fthomas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Again! Philippines & S. California
Posts: 1,453

Bikes: Jamis Aurora Elite

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by seeker333 View Post
I emailed Surly yesterday, had an answer 3 hrs later.

I've emailed them at least 3 times before, always answered promptly with complete answers. I've called them a few times too, once to inquire about availability of a long-discontinued fork in a specific color. I was surprised to learn they had one, and more surprised when they sent me a replacement fork free in the desired color.

I've also emailed and called Surly's parent company, QBP, located in the same warehouse office space in MSP, MN. Same experience, prompt good answers, and they warrantied a batch of bad Q-tubes that would break at the valve stem the first time they were inflated. Took care of me and my $21 grievance - their shipping cost was nearly what I paid for the tubes.

I recommend you try again: derby@surlybikes.com
The Customer Service Experience you have had with Surly is certainly commendable. Only wish I had received as timely a response to my questions or a response at all. Surly bikes have a lot to offer in the way of design and materials. Actually a Surly LHT was my first choice. Pulled the plug on the Jamis Aurora Elite after not receiving any response from Surly and none of the local shops had a bike(s) to test ride and narrow down the size. The local shops I spoke to were happy to order one for me, but on my dime. I wasn't about to risk that much money without knowing if the bike was a good fit. Can't blame Surly for their dealer's lack of inventory.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Wish mine had been the same.
__________________
F Thomas

"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving."
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
fthomas is offline  
Old 05-02-16, 07:44 AM
  #14  
Marc40a
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: North Shore, MA
Posts: 206

Bikes: Jamis Aurora, Rivendell Sam Hillborne, Surly ECR, Serotta CSI

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
I'm running a very similar set up on my Aurora:

26-36-48 with a 12-30 cassette (10 sp) and 105 RD (also 10 spd). I just recently swapped out the granny for a 24t but I have yet to use it, hopefully some time this week. It's my attempt at getting lower gearing with out swapping the RD or Cassette(I've already stockpiled a bunch of 12-30 cassettes)

If and when I go for a larger toothed cassette in the back (a 32 or 34) I have a Deore Long Cage RD waiting in the wings.

Don't sweat the Atlantis or Surly. You've got a sportier frame. It is unfortunate that you had to re-spec your drivetrain, but it seems to me that most bikes require a ridiculous amount of tweaking to trouble-shoot and optimize - maybe it's just me.
Marc40a is offline  
Old 05-02-16, 08:07 AM
  #15  
djb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Montreal Canada
Posts: 9,320
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1270 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 77 Times in 68 Posts
the 10 speed 12-30 is a really nice cassette, I ride a 12-27 nine speed which has the same cogs except the ten speed has the 30 added on. Very nice close jumps, 12 13 14 15 which is very handy for the range of speeds we are often going at, and good jumps with the rest. Unless for weight considerations, its a great cassette for most riding, on my bike with that 12-27 I regularly use all the cogs, and with my bike at high 20s in weight, if I have a pannier with maybe up to 10lbs weight, I can still get up relatively steep hills, although the 30t of the ten speed would be nice sometimes while still having a fairly close ratioed cassette that is just nice to ride on.

as for stockpiling the 12-30, I am sure this cassette will be around for a very very long time, given that 10 speed is so common now. Here in Canada, the Tiagra 12-30 is about $45.
djb is offline  
Old 05-02-16, 08:45 AM
  #16  
fietsbob 
coprolite
 
fietsbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 41,396

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 188 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6942 Post(s)
Liked 253 Times in 208 Posts
When you shift , mindful of the terrain ahead, so as to have the chain not under strain while expecting it to climb off one cog and onto another ..

Improves even my 6 speed freewheel - triple crank friction bar end shifter bike's Shifting..

now back to the Parts Shopping channel
fietsbob is offline  
Old 05-02-16, 08:54 AM
  #17  
fietsbob 
coprolite
 
fietsbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 41,396

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 188 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6942 Post(s)
Liked 253 Times in 208 Posts
I blew off Surly because of their inability to respond to "Customer Service" emails. I figured if they can't handle a few pre-purchase questions what would warranty issues be like.



QBP is a Wholesale Distributor-Importer, not a Bike shop. They sell Wholesale through Bike shops not the general public.
Surly & Salsa are some of their brands .. Warrantee issues go thru the dealer that you bought it From.

( Bikes Direct is an importer selling retail, if that is what you want , dealer skipping)
fietsbob is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
fthomas
Bicycle Mechanics
16
04-26-16 10:57 PM
aistobistoc
Bicycle Mechanics
16
11-10-14 02:23 PM
snipe2k5
Bicycle Mechanics
12
07-01-11 09:12 PM
TugaDude
Bicycle Mechanics
3
05-18-11 06:48 AM
pow216
Bicycle Mechanics
6
07-04-10 07:57 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.