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bike stands bad news

Old 08-25-16, 07:10 AM
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antokelly, A couple of years back I bought an ultra high mileage Cannondale touring bike to use as my beater. It had a side stand clamped onto the chain stays. The stays are moderately to severely crushed. I have to assume the stand was installed for every inch the bike traveled.

So far I've used it for gravel grinding and one short tour. Now, would I use it for a long tour? No, I have a perfectly good touring bike for that. Up to now the damage hasn't worsened, but I have my doubts that trend will continue.

Brad

PS I don't use stands on any of my bikes. Using one, or not, is in the realm of personal preference, IMHO.
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Old 08-25-16, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by jefnvk
Or because even when one has a kickstand, if there is a designated open rack, it is pointless to leave your bike up elsewhere in people's way. Even on my bikes with kickstands (and I do have one without), I don't exclusively use them, but I do enjoy having them when there isn't a close option nearby.

I saw it quite frequently, such as at this brewery in Amesterdam (all free standing):
Like I said, I've been to Amsterdam. I never saw a bike on the street that was utilizing the kickstand. That's probably because people realize that using a kickstand will eventually result in the bike laying in the middle of a sidewalk in someone's way. They'll get bumped by someone else moving a bike or just by someone walking past.

I noticed in your picture that the bikes are parked away from any kind of traffic flow...car, pedestrian or bike...that decreases the possibility of a bike getting knocked over of course.


Originally Posted by jefnvk
Where can it fall to? The ground.
If the bike is leaned up against something and it doesn't have the opportunity to roll, it's not going to just spontaneously fall over. Even a fast gust of wind won't usually knock it over. The same can't be said of a bike on a kickstand.

Originally Posted by jefnvk
I thought you didn't put your bike on the ground, though? From post 33:
What part of "rarely" don't you understand? I didn't say I "never" put my bike on the ground. Occasionally I have to but not that often...in other words, "rarely".


Originally Posted by jefnvk
I can concede that point. The fiancee's touring mixte is a prime example, the tubes are nicked where the PO wrenched it down. However, that is akin to arguing that one shouldn't use carbon tubes, because if you overtighten the seat bolt or stem, you can crack them. It is user error. I've had one on my MTB since I got it in the mid 90's without issue.
Of course it's "user error". And that's the point. People overtighten the fixing bolt all the time because they don't think about how it could damage the frame. In my experience, it's usually a case of the kickstand loosens and the user tightens the bolt. Then it loosens again and the user decides to show the kickstand who's boss and really torques down on the bolt which smashes the frame and compromises it.

Alternatively, there's the negligent user who just keeps riding with the kickstand loose so that it rattles against the frame and erodes the metal. The result is the same, a compromised frame.
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Old 08-25-16, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by pdlamb
Except, of course, when the bike lands on a derailer and bends either the derailer or the hanger. That's not mere inconvenience, that's time for a new derailer, bending the hanger back precisely, or new derailer hanger. Without a kickstand, you've got a 50% chance the bike falls on that side; with a kickstand, the bike is probably leaning away from the derailer, so you've got a better chance of the bike surviving with only a few scratches.
Again, how often have you seen a bike leaning up against something leap off the wall and fall to the ground? Most people who lean their bikes against walls lean them with the derailer out. But the bike is leaning towards the wall and away from the derailer. Any wind that might push the bike over is going to push it into the wall and it's not likely to fall over.

Look at a bike on a kickstand, however. Yes, it is leaning away from the derailer. A gust of wind probably isn't going to knock the bike over towards the kickstand (I've seen it happen by it's rare). A gust of wind from the kickstand side can easily topple the bike away from the stand and onto to the ground on the derailer side.
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Old 08-25-16, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
Like I said, I've been to Amsterdam. I never saw a bike on the street that was utilizing the kickstand. That's probably because people realize that using a kickstand will eventually result in the bike laying in the middle of a sidewalk in someone's way. They'll get bumped by someone else moving a bike or just by someone walking past.
And I saw it quite frequently. I'd have a hard time believing you never saw it, but it happens. Kickstand down, rear circle ring locked, walk away. Here are just a few more, the first from Leiden and the second from Haarlem. You'll notice in both cases, there are plenty of walls for them to lean against, yet they are on kickstands.





If the bike is leaned up against something and it doesn't have the opportunity to roll, it's not going to just spontaneously fall over. Even a fast gust of wind won't usually knock it over. The same can't be said of a bike on a kickstand.
Bikes are on two wheels. They always have the opportunity to roll, especially when leaned up against a car with curvy surfaces.

Of course it's "user error". And that's the point.
And I'm not in the habit of not using something because someone else can't use it properly. If that is the point, the point of this thread should be "be careful in selecting and attaching a kickstand", not "use anything but kickstands".
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Old 08-25-16, 10:27 AM
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those bikes in the photo's are just town bikes probably made out of cast iron .
im talking here of quality touring bikes like the dawes ultra galaxy ,why in gods name would you fit a 2lb stand to an expensive bike in the first place .it's beyond my way of thinking.
i've never been to Amsterdam but this i can tell you my bike would never be parked in one of those bike parks your looking for trouble ,it would be sitting nice and comfy where i could keep my eye on it end of story.
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Old 08-25-16, 07:13 PM
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I find it difficult to take an argument regarding kickstands too seriously, the opposing view having not a leg to stand on, so to speak. But a curious point stands closer examination if I may be permitted.

Most people, me thinks, lay a bike to leaning upon the derailer side, as most are right handed. Right handed people generally stand to the port side o the bike and lean er to starboard, as it were.

Bikes on one legged stands also tend to fall towards the stand side. This usually occurs on a poorly adjusted stand when the front wheel rotates downward (to the left) and the center of gravity shifts to port, over the stand.

The secret is to adjust the stand for an already turned wheel and leave the bike that way at the start. It takes a hell of a breeze to blow a bike up and over it c.o.g. to fall to leeward.

Forgive the nautical verbage; I am currently esconsed in a Patrick O'Brian book.

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Old 08-25-16, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by antokelly
those bikes in the photo's are just town bikes probably made out of cast iron .

Cast iron? This one probably floats!
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Old 08-25-16, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by jefnvk
And I'm not in the habit of not using something because someone else can't use it properly. If that is the point, the point of this thread should be "be careful in selecting and attaching a kickstand", not "use anything but kickstands".

The title does not take a negative stance against all kickstands, it merely said, "bike stands bad news" (exactly).

Specific to some models that it could be a problem on.

As I already said, I wouldn't buy a bike you could ruin with a foot long rod on a swivel.
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Old 08-26-16, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Rollfast
The title does not take a negative stance against all kickstands, it merely said, "bike stands bad news" (exactly).
The title does not, the content of the original post does:

now that i think of it, how many of u guys use a touring stand the 2 legged type fitted under bottom bracket.
reason i ask i serviced a fairly new Dawes ultra galaxy tourer last week for a friend ,he had one fitted , i took it off and binned it after i seen the damage it done to a lovely frame, so be warned folks there bad news buy a click stand if you really need your bike to stand up or find a solid object like a wall hedge tree anything bar one of those bloody things.
just saying.
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Old 08-26-16, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by antokelly
those bikes in the photo's are just town bikes probably made out of cast iron .
im talking here of quality touring bikes like the dawes ultra galaxy ,why in gods name would you fit a 2lb stand to an expensive bike in the first place .it's beyond my way of thinking.
What's quality about the bike when it can't even take a kick stand?

i've never been to Amsterdam but this i can tell you my bike would never be parked in one of those bike parks your looking for trouble ,it would be sitting nice and comfy where i could keep my eye on it end of story.
Then the bike would be sitting nice and comfy, but you wouldn't be sitting at all.
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Old 08-26-16, 07:05 AM
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ah here your just nit picking .
you want to fit a bike stand fire away buddy it's your bike .
i'm just giving people the heads up on the condition i found the bike entirly up to you what you do.
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Old 08-26-16, 07:15 AM
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jefnvk, I don't see the thread so much as anti bike stand, but rather a PSA like message recounting the experience of finding one improperly installed.

Brad
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Old 08-26-16, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by antokelly
ah here your just nit picking .
you want to fit a bike stand fire away buddy it's your bike .
i'm just giving people the heads up on the condition i found the bike entirly up to you what you do.
Not at all, I really don't mind you putting a bit too strong in the thread start, nor that you dislike them and won't use again on your bike.

But if there's any bike who should be able to take a kick stand it is a touring bike, as you have to be able to park them anywhere to keep an eye on your luggage. The other thing is that in more bike friendly places like Amsterdam, it isn't so friendly that you can just lay down your bike anywhere or put it up against any wall, because others need the space to and racks are more space efficient than kick stands, and kick stands are more space efficient than wall leaning and lay downs.

Originally Posted by cyccommute
Like I said, I've been to Amsterdam. I never saw a bike on the street that was utilizing the kickstand. That's probably because people realize that using a kickstand will eventually result in the bike laying in the middle of a sidewalk in someone's way. They'll get bumped by someone else moving a bike or just by someone walking past.
No, it's probably you just visiting the crowded area's where the racks are placed to make better use of the available space. People prefer poles and railings because they can lock the bike to it, but for the quick stop in moderately crowded area's, people use the kick stand. In cities the last 10-15 years it has gotten a lot busier with bikes, people used to get away with not having a kick stand (which meant it fell off or something, because every bike is fitted with a kick stand) but these days you have a parking problem without one and racks have their disadvantages too. Of course all the new bikes with kid seats attached to it have a double touring bike style kick stand, because it makes life a little easier.

Sometimes they do fall, the single kick stands, especially when they are placed in a row and someone didn't bother to tighten the bolt and another one isn't paying attention and knocks it. And if it storms they can be blown over, but generally it isn't as busy with bikes when it storms, so people will park it in another way.
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Old 08-26-16, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by antokelly
those bikes in the photo's are just town bikes probably made out of cast iron .
im talking here of quality touring bikes like the dawes ultra galaxy ,why in gods name would you fit a 2lb stand to an expensive bike in the first place .it's beyond my way of thinking.
i've never been to Amsterdam but this i can tell you my bike would never be parked in one of those bike parks your looking for trouble ,it would be sitting nice and comfy where i could keep my eye on it end of story.
Originally Posted by bradtx
jefnvk, I don't see the thread so much as anti bike stand, but rather a PSA like message recounting the experience of finding one improperly installed.
I dunno, the OP seems pretty clear that stands shouldn't be fitted. I do agree that caution should be taken, but that caution is fairly easy to exercise.

But, my answer antokelly is that some of us find great utility in them. I'm certainly not thinking that i will convince anyone against them that they should personally use them, rather I'd prefer for you to see that not everyone shares your view that they are useless. My question to you would be why you would buy an ultralight bike to tour on in the first place, when you are going to load it down to the point where 2# is fairly negligible.

And if your bike would never be parked in one of those places, I'd suggest never visiting Amsterdam on a bike. Anywhere there is open space is a mess of bikes parked that you are looking for trouble. On the back side of that train station, they have a barge on the river that is nothing but multi level bike parking.
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Old 08-26-16, 07:44 AM
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I give up .
Happy christmas im off.
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Old 08-26-16, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet
Forgive the nautical verbage; I am currently esconsed in a Patrick O'Brian book.

The floggings will continue until morale improves.
Man, I had my wife and friends in stitches over my new found conversational verbiage the last time I read the Jack Aubrey series! Couldn't shake it.

Nothing else to add, though I've thought about a double legger.
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Old 08-29-16, 06:28 PM
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A little OT, but thought it might be helpful to both the "leaners" and kickstand folks.


How to lean a bike on a ferry: get out ferry straps, 4' peice of 1/2" webbing with sidelock buckles; get parking brakes out , a 6" velcro strap; lean first bike (usually the one with the most padding) against rail, and secure to rail and put on parking brake; pull in next bike rear to front; attach ferry strap to first bike, and attach parking brake; repeat.

The ferry straps are red, blue, and purple; and are usually attached at the top tube. The velcro straps are used to apply pressure to the brake lever.

This is a solid way to load multiple bikes on a ferry with limited rail space. The panniers protect the bikes, and the parking brake eliminate fore and aft movement. Our girls are old hands at this technique; this was the 5th tour with them that required ferries.

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Old 08-30-16, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug64
...

How to lean a bike on a ferry: get out ferry straps, 4' peice of 1/2" webbing with sidelock buckles; get parking brakes out , a 6" velcro strap; lean first bike (usually the one with the most padding) against rail, and secure to rail and put on parking brake; pull in next bike rear to front; attach ferry strap to first bike, and attach parking brake; repeat.

The ferry straps are red, blue, and purple; and are usually attached at the top tube. The velcro straps are used to apply pressure to the brake lever.

This is a solid way to load multiple bikes on a ferry with limited rail space. The panniers protect the bikes, and the parking brake eliminate fore and aft movement. Our girls are old hands at this technique; this was the 5th tour with them that required ferries.
Or, use a kickstand if you have room and are on calm water. And I was on the bike during docking, did not use the stand at that time.
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Old 08-30-16, 10:26 AM
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I use a velcro wrap from the down tube to the wheel. Keeps it from rolling. New England doesn't lack from trees on which to lean said bike. YRMV.
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Old 08-30-16, 10:30 AM
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I built My Own rear wheel lifting Stand of thin wall 4130 with hard Nylon end Plugs.


Took some open Ocean ferries British Isles and Across the North Sea, they had Made Up Tie lines

on the rails on the Car/truck Decks , of Roll on Roll off ships.





./.

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Old 08-30-16, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by jefnvk
I dunno, the OP seems pretty clear that stands shouldn't be fitted. I do agree that caution should be taken, but that caution is fairly easy to exercise.

But, my answer antokelly is that some of us find great utility in them. I'm certainly not thinking that i will convince anyone against them that they should personally use them, rather I'd prefer for you to see that not everyone shares your view that they are useless. My question to you would be why you would buy an ultralight bike to tour on in the first place, when you are going to load it down to the point where 2# is fairly negligible.

And if your bike would never be parked in one of those places, I'd suggest never visiting Amsterdam on a bike. Anywhere there is open space is a mess of bikes parked that you are looking for trouble. On the back side of that train station, they have a barge on the river that is nothing but multi level
parking.

Is this is the one you are talking about?

I certainly would not take my bike into Amsterdam unless I planned on never getting off of it.


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Old 08-30-16, 11:14 PM
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would never use a kickstand on the ferry.
boats move, seas get rough, sometimes
hit stuff....smaller boats, docks, etc.
lean it with wheels stabilized.
bungees are your bestest friends.
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Old 08-31-16, 03:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet
I find it difficult to take an argument regarding kickstands too seriously, the opposing view having not a leg to stand on, so to speak. But a curious point stands closer examination if I may be permitted.

Most people, me thinks, lay a bike to leaning upon the derailer side, as most are right handed. Right handed people generally stand to the port side o the bike and lean er to starboard, as it were.

Bikes on one legged stands also tend to fall towards the stand side. This usually occurs on a poorly adjusted stand when the front wheel rotates downward (to the left) and the center of gravity shifts to port, over the stand.

The secret is to adjust the stand for an already turned wheel and leave the bike that way at the start. It takes a hell of a breeze to blow a bike up and over it c.o.g. to fall to leeward.

Forgive the nautical verbage; I am currently esconsed in a Patrick O'Brian book.

The floggings will continue until morale improves.


For this post alone ....I now regard you as my "particular friend".
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Old 08-31-16, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug64
Is this is the one you are talking about?

I certainly would not take my bike into Amsterdam unless I planned on never getting off of it.
Nope, although IIRC I think that was the train station in addition to my first picture AND this:



But yeah, the place is a mess of bikes and parking is, shall we say, fun?
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Old 08-31-16, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug64
This is a solid way to load multiple bikes on a ferry with limited rail space. The panniers protect the bikes, and the parking brake eliminate fore and aft movement. Our girls are old hands at this technique; this was the 5th tour with them that required ferries.
I just use the bike stands



Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
Or, use a kickstand if you have room and are on calm water. And I was on the bike during docking, did not use the stand at that time.
I did that as well.



Lots of ways to do it. Personally, I am capable of installing and using one properly, I prefer having options.
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