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Different Tires for 2016 Novara - Safari

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Different Tires for 2016 Novara - Safari

Old 09-13-16, 08:48 PM
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Different Tires for 2016 Novara - Safari

So now that I've gotten the chance to finally get my new 2016 Novara - Safari out for a few 'real' rides, a few issues came up along the way, one has been addressed, and that is that I swapped out the crank-set for a lower geared one, that did the trick. The next was that the bar is much too low, but I've now got all the parts here to fix that.

Now I'm having questions regarding tire width and type. I have yet to see where I've needed a thinner/skinnier and smoother road type tire, but I have several times really wished I had one that was wider and more knobby. It has the stock Vittoria Randonneur, 700 x 48 set on there now, and while they're fine on paved road, as soon as I go off-road, which I do on every ride, it just hasn't got the width and knobs to cope well with it, especially when the trail gets really sandy, rough, and/or rutted. As time goes on I can see myself riding on increasingly rough terrain, so now I'm wondering what new tires I should try.

After looking a bit, I came upon these Schwalbe - Marathon Plus MTB HS 468, sized 29 x 2.10, which look really good, but would I hate them on paved road? Are they a good choice, or do you recommend something else?

Marathon Plus MTB HS 468 | Schwalbe North America
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Old 09-13-16, 09:42 PM
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On my 26" MT bike, which spends most of the time on pavement, I commute on these: 26x2.0 Schwalbe Marathon Plus Tours...



Billed by Schwalbe as their "world touring" tire.

Competent off road, almost certainly quieter and with lower rolling resistance on pavement than that mtb tire you posted.

IMHO the perfect match for a Safari.

Mike
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Old 09-13-16, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Sharpshin View Post
On my 26" MT bike, which spends most of the time on pavement, I commute on these: 26x2.0 Schwalbe Marathon Plus Tours...

Billed by Schwalbe as their "world touring" tire.

Competent off road, almost certainly quieter and with lower rolling resistance on pavement than that mtb tire you posted.

IMHO the perfect match for a Safari.

Mike
Those look like a good option, accept that the only come in up to 40c width. I'm running 48c now and would still like to go wider. I think 2.1" would be about the widest I can get on my bike with my fenders, and I can get the 'Marathon Plus MTB HS 468' in that width.
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Old 09-14-16, 07:43 AM
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Well, congrats on finding the Schwalbe page anyway, hard to go wrong there. Pay attention to how they rate the rolling resistance of their products. It matters. All else being equal, a bike set-up with less rolling resistance is faster and more fun to ride.

Why folks don't generally ride knobby tires on pavement by preference is that they generally have a higher rolling resistance, are noisier, and often have a smaller contact patch (ie. less traction) on pavement. That last can be critical when its wet out.

Only you know how much off-road traction you need. If you haven't ridden knobbies in the dirt much, it is possible you may be over-estimating their effectiveness. Loose sand is tough with ANY tire.

Anyways, if you eventually decide to upgrade your wheels too, this is where I had mine built based on recommendations here.....

https://www.universalcycles.com/wheelkit.php

I have rim brakes: A pair of Shimano 105 36-spoke hubs with Mavic A719 rims gave me a functional and entirely satisfactory set of wheels for around $400 and change, delivered. Prob'ly got 7 - 8,000 loaded miles of hard use on 'em now; two tours and a rough urban daily commute, no problems at all outside of routine spoke tensioning/bearing repacking.

Mike

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Old 09-14-16, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Sharpshin View Post
Well, congrats on finding the Schwalbe page anyway, hard to go wrong there. Pay attention to how they rate the rolling resistance of their products. It matters. All else being equal, a bike set-up with less rolling resistance is faster and more fun to ride.

Why folks don't generally ride knobby tires on pavement by preference is that they generally have a higher rolling resistance, are noisier, and often have a smaller contact patch (ie. less traction) on pavement. That last can be critical when its wet out.

Only you know how much off-road traction you need. If you haven't ridden knobbies in the dirt much, it is possible you may be over-estimating their effectiveness. Loose sand is tough with ANY tire.

Anyways, if you eventually decide to upgrade your wheels too, this is where I had mine built based on recommendations here.....

https://www.universalcycles.com/wheelkit.php

I have rim brakes: A pair of Shimano 105 36-spoke hubs with Mavic A719 rims gave me a functional and entirely satisfactory set of wheels for around $400 and change, delivered. Prob'ly got 7 - 8,000 loaded miles of hard use on 'em now; two tours and a rough urban daily commute, no problems at all outside of routine spoke tensioning/bearing repacking.

Mike
Thanks for the tip there. I'll bookmark that for when the time comes for new ones. I may be getting a Dynamo soon, but my thought was to have one built into my current rim. I just don't know where to go to have that done.

The only tires with decent off-road traction and better rolling resistance ratings there are only available in 40c max width. That's too skinny for my requirements. I just don't see any alternative, unless there's another brand out there that's got something. I was loosing to much traction going uphill, making nit more difficult to climb than it needed to be, and then when coming back down the loss of traction was becoming dangerous. This is what's driving me to find a more appropriate tire.

This newer version they have out is getting some good reviews,

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/schwalbe-mar...ws/#tabReviews

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Old 09-30-16, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by AdvXtrm View Post
So now that I've gotten the chance to finally get my new 2016 Novara - Safari out for a few 'real' rides, a few issues came up along the way, one has been addressed, and that is that I swapped out the crank-set for a lower geared one, that did the trick. The next was that the bar is much too low, but I've now got all the parts here to fix that.

Now I'm having questions regarding tire width and type. I have yet to see where I've needed a thinner/skinnier and smoother road type tire, but I have several times really wished I had one that was wider and more knobby. It has the stock Vittoria Randonneur, 700 x 48 set on there now, and while they're fine on paved road, as soon as I go off-road, which I do on every ride, it just hasn't got the width and knobs to cope well with it, especially when the trail gets really sandy, rough, and/or rutted. As time goes on I can see myself riding on increasingly rough terrain, so now I'm wondering what new tires I should try.

After looking a bit, I came upon these Schwalbe - Marathon Plus MTB HS 468, sized 29 x 2.10, which look really good, but would I hate them on paved road? Are they a good choice, or do you recommend something else?

Marathon Plus MTB HS 468 | Schwalbe North America
Finally I have found someone who seems to be using the Safari the way I am. I have read a lot of those who are using theirs for touring, mostly road, but I have been using this bike for everything, on/off road, 100 mile road tour. Never thought I would like the trekking bars off road but they work really well. Right now I have a set of Continental Mountain King (frt) and X King (rr) 2.2 and they are just perfect. They aren't the fastest on road but pumped up, not so bad. Out on the trail this combo is great. I mostly ride on gravel near my house and these are near perfect.
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Old 09-30-16, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by mjk1217 View Post
Finally I have found someone who seems to be using the Safari the way I am. I have read a lot of those who are using theirs for touring, mostly road, but I have been using this bike for everything, on/off road, 100 mile road tour. Never thought I would like the trekking bars off road but they work really well. Right now I have a set of Continental Mountain King (frt) and X King (rr) 2.2 and they are just perfect. They aren't the fastest on road but pumped up, not so bad. Out on the trail this combo is great. I mostly ride on gravel near my house and these are near perfect.
Sounds good. I also found the trekking bars to be great off-road, and are by far my favorite no matter what type of surface I'm riding on. If I'm climbing a really steep grade, I hold on to the bar on the outer edges in a kind of bar-end style of hold, and I get great balance and power that way. If I'm just leisurely cruising, then I'll hold on where the controls are, if I'm speeding things up, then I'll reach our and hold the front part of the bar. For me, these three positions give me the best options for the three primary riding modes we all need to do.
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Old 09-30-16, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by AdvXtrm View Post
Sounds good. I also found the trekking bars to be great off-road, and are by far my favorite no matter what type of surface I'm riding on. If I'm climbing a really steep grade, I hold on to the bar on the outer edges in a kind of bar-end style of hold, and I get great balance and power that way. If I'm just leisurely cruising, then I'll hold on where the controls are, if I'm speeding things up, then I'll reach our and hold the front part of the bar. For me, these three positions give me the best options for the three primary riding modes we all need to do.
I didn't really think I would like the bars but I know what you mean about the balance and control. I have had the bike on some rutty trails and I was stunned at how well they worked. I still get some strange looks when I roll up to the trail on this bike with the trekking bars and steel while everyone else is full suspension and carbon and well, whatever. I even got some snarky comments from the rei bike mechanic about off road on the Safari. I forgot to mention that the only problem I have with the conti tires is when they are pumped up full (50 psi +) they may rub against the spare spokes at the bottom. What tire did you end up choosing ?
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Old 09-30-16, 09:33 PM
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I ended up having to remove the extra spoke that's on the outside of the chain-stay because when I replaced the crank-set with a lower-geared one, and I lowered the front derailleur to match the new crank-set it collided with it. I also have fenders mounted, and that's a real concern when I move to wider tires.

I've been doing other things on my list to the bike, and new tires are at the bottom of the list, so I haven't quite gotten to it yet. Those Contis look pretty nice. I'm really interested in this new for 2017 Schwalbe right now,



Schwalbe - Smart Sam Plus HS 476
https://www.schwalbetires.com/node/5152
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Old 11-04-16, 04:07 AM
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OK, after doing a lot of upgrades and changes to the bike, I'm getting closer to finally getting a new set of tires for it. If they made the Marathon Plus Tour HS 404 in at least a 45c width I would have gone for that, but since they don't, it's not an option I'm interested in.

Being that I need a tire of at least 45c width, all things considered, and with my particular priorities in mind, these are the final two tires I've come down to. The main differences I see between them are that the Marathon 420 rolls a bit better, but has less puncture protection and off-road capability than the Marathon Plus MTB 468. Keep in mind that I ride about as much off paved roads as on. When off paved road I'm on anything from hard-pack to the occasional rutted gravel road, and sometimes a bit of soft/thick sand as well. I've found no tires from any other manufacture that match these tires in overall quality, capability, and performance.

Right now I'm leaning towards going with the Marathon Plus MTB 468 for the added off-road capability and better puncture prevention. Does that sound like the best choice for me, or do you think I should go for the Marathon 420 instead for some reason?


Marathon HS 420


Marathon Plus MTB HS 468
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Old 11-04-16, 07:31 AM
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Between those two, i wonder if the rolling resistance difference is even perceptible.
When you have a hugely thick tire thats heavy and compare it to a hugely thick tire thats heavy, rolling resistance will most likely be woefully underwhelming either way.

With that said, i would go with the 420 every day of the week.
- Its lighter. Comparable tires(53mm for the 468 and 50mm for the 420) weigh 14oz different. The 420 tires are almost 1 pound lighter. That, on the tires which rotate, is significant.
- the 420 tread will be a lot better on pavement. It has a moderately smooth center line. I would get seriously annoyed at the road chatter i would feel riding knobby tires on pavement for dozens of miles each day. Knobby tread sucks energy, gives worse traction, and vibrates.
- i doubt you will ride cobditions, fully loaded on a touring bike, where the knobby tires will be needed over the 420 tread. That 420 tread will be more than capable of handling gravel, hardpack dirt, and softer sand sections. It will provide less rolling resistance, give more traction in almost all conditions, and allow for a smoother ride.
- the 420 is a lot cheaper cost per their website(about 70% less).
- you are very concerned about puncture protection. Flats are a reality. They are often times a rare reality though. Paying attention to where you ride (your line) is probably the most important way to prevent flats and has nothing to do with tire technology or design. Both of these tires are tanks. I have ridden 700mi of straight gravel and over 2000mi of overall riding this season without a puncture...punctures are rare. This has been on multiple tires which are a lot more lightweight than either of your options, so i wouldnt expect to ever flat on your options, unless i rolled thru thorny areas which will flat most anything.


Go as light as you can when considering equally quality options. Go as smooth as you can for comfort.
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Old 11-04-16, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
Between those two, i wonder if the rolling resistance difference is even perceptible.
When you have a hugely thick tire thats heavy and compare it to a hugely thick tire thats heavy, rolling resistance will most likely be woefully underwhelming either way.

With that said, i would go with the 420 every day of the week.
- Its lighter. Comparable tires(53mm for the 468 and 50mm for the 420) weigh 14oz different. The 420 tires are almost 1 pound lighter. That, on the tires which rotate, is significant.
- the 420 tread will be a lot better on pavement. It has a moderately smooth center line. I would get seriously annoyed at the road chatter i would feel riding knobby tires on pavement for dozens of miles each day. Knobby tread sucks energy, gives worse traction, and vibrates.
- i doubt you will ride cobditions, fully loaded on a touring bike, where the knobby tires will be needed over the 420 tread. That 420 tread will be more than capable of handling gravel, hardpack dirt, and softer sand sections. It will provide less rolling resistance, give more traction in almost all conditions, and allow for a smoother ride.
- the 420 is a lot cheaper cost per their website(about 70% less).
- you are very concerned about puncture protection. Flats are a reality. They are often times a rare reality though. Paying attention to where you ride (your line) is probably the most important way to prevent flats and has nothing to do with tire technology or design. Both of these tires are tanks. I have ridden 700mi of straight gravel and over 2000mi of overall riding this season without a puncture...punctures are rare. This has been on multiple tires which are a lot more lightweight than either of your options, so i wouldnt expect to ever flat on your options, unless i rolled thru thorny areas which will flat most anything.


Go as light as you can when considering equally quality options. Go as smooth as you can for comfort.
You've made fantastic points there, thanks. It's a really big decision for me in a few key ways. For me, it's a sizable financial investment, and spending as much time and riding as many miles as I hope to, proper performance for the road conditions I end up on and puncture resistance are huge. The point you raise regarding feel and noise, and the fact that you've used less burly tires and still experienced few flats are very good ones, and are the only reason to go with the 420 over the 468 it seems. I do like quiet. I'd love to be able to find out just how much quieter and smoother the 420 would be over the 468; quite noticeable do you think? Also I plan on adding a puncture resistant liner to the 420 if I get them, so perhaps that would negate the puncture advantage of the 468.

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Old 11-04-16, 06:12 PM
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My guess is yes a lot quieter ride. The knobby tire does have its center knobs connected so that will help with making it smoother than a true knobby mtb tire, but i would still expect it to ride bumpy due to how wide the tire contact patch will be.
This is genuinely an educated guess though as i dont use that type of tire for touring or even gravel riding and havent seriously considered it.

The weight alone would be significant as its rotational weight.

But hey, this is always an experiment. I doubt either will be bad. You probably cant go wrong with either.
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Old 11-05-16, 03:15 AM
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AdvXtrm, The last two sentences of post 13 sums it up nicely between the two tires.

My sister has a set of tires with a tread pattern similar to the MTB HS. They are really not too bad on pavement, better than I predicted, but not as good as I would like. My mountain bike has used Conti Double Fighters for many years, they're good on dry hard packed dirt and soft sand. I did use them when light touring before I built a touring bike. The problem with either my sister's tires or the Double Fighters is when leaning the bike into a turn, one moves from a relatively smooth surface to a series of small unconnected knobs, at which point traction diminishes.

While not as aggressive as the 468, the 420 looks to better meet your personal preferences.

Brad
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Old 11-05-16, 03:43 AM
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Originally Posted by bradtx View Post
AdvXtrm, The last two sentences of post 13 sums it up nicely between the two tires.

My sister has a set of tires with a tread pattern similar to the MTB HS. They are really not too bad on pavement, better than I predicted, but not as good as I would like. My mountain bike has used Conti Double Fighters for many years, they're good on dry hard packed dirt and soft sand. I did use them when light touring before I built a touring bike. The problem with either my sister's tires or the Double Fighters is when leaning the bike into a turn, one moves from a relatively smooth surface to a series of small unconnected knobs, at which point traction diminishes.

While not as aggressive as the 468, the 420 looks to better meet your personal preferences.

Brad
I think I'll go with the 420 and add a protective liner to it.

I see you're in South Texas. Is there such a thing as any nice riding and scenery in Texas? lol I ask because I've only been there once, but all I saw was flat, dead desert for hundreds of miles in any direction. I may be headed out that way again before too long, and I may even move there as well, but up more in the northern part of the state.
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Old 11-05-16, 04:31 AM
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The 420 gave some impressive numbers here. Looks like at least at the time of the test, it was tops for low rolling resistance.

Tire Test - Schwalbe Marathon (GreenGuard)
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Old 11-05-16, 04:37 AM
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AdvXtrm, Tons of good places! You can download or order this: https://www.traveltexas.com/travel-guide .

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Old 11-05-16, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by bradtx View Post
AdvXtrm, Tons of good places! You can download or order this: https://www.traveltexas.com/travel-guide .

Brad
Thanks but it says it's "free", so I'm very suspicious. What will they do to me if I actually order it? lol
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Old 03-15-18, 01:16 PM
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What kind of tire did you end up getting for your Safari? I'm in exactly the same position. I am thinking of taking my 2016 Safari on the GDMBR and would need the widest possible tires.
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Old 03-17-18, 11:27 AM
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Knobby tires on the road absorb your energy.. My Bike came , used still wearing its OEM pick Continental travel contact..

https://www.continental-tires.com/bi...travel-contact



on the edges just enough knobs for softer surfaces when the pavement ends.. but easy rolling on paved roads..




...
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