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Old 10-20-16, 09:41 AM   #126
elcruxio
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That's your opinion.
Uuh, which? The first, the last? All of them?
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Old 10-20-16, 09:46 AM   #127
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I think it might help to remember the genesis of this and a few similar threads recently; in which a member asked "Why don't they make high end, off the shelf touring bikes?" IIRC the price being in the $10,000 range. I think the consensus was because a $10,000 touring bike was not needed. For those who wanted an expensive bike the custom maker was a workable option. Or something along those lines...

To argue that people might like to have a expensive or nicer bike, or more expensive components seems to be a pretty given position to my mind. Of course some people want that, especially if they have been biking a while, are older and have more disposable income, or just plain place a higher value on the bike as an item that gives them intrinsic personal satisfaction.

But to try to argue that you need those things to do an activity or, beyond a certain point that they will automatically make that activity "better" seems to me to be a stretch at self justification for which there is no need, unless you bought an expensive part instead of milk for the baby.

A good discussion could revolve around what makes a part or bike "good enough" from a practical POV, given the task, but arguing the relative merits of taste or aesthetics seems pointless.
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Old 10-20-16, 12:42 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
I think it might help to remember the genesis of this and a few similar threads recently; in which a member asked "Why don't they make high end, off the shelf touring bikes?" IIRC the price being in the $10,000 range. I think the consensus was because a $10,000 touring bike was not needed. For those who wanted an expensive bike the custom maker was a workable option. Or something along those lines...

To argue that people might like to have a expensive or nicer bike, or more expensive components seems to be a pretty given position to my mind. Of course some people want that, especially if they have been biking a while, are older and have more disposable income, or just plain place a higher value on the bike as an item that gives them intrinsic personal satisfaction.

But to try to argue that you need those things to do an activity or, beyond a certain point that they will automatically make that activity "better" seems to me to be a stretch at self justification for which there is no need, unless you bought an expensive part instead of milk for the baby.

A good discussion could revolve around what makes a part or bike "good enough" from a practical POV, given the task, but arguing the relative merits of taste or aesthetics seems pointless.
I completely agree with your summary.

I largely agree with your concluding statement, although I might aim for "best" rather than "good enough" leaving the final decision to the tourer who will decide what is good enough in his/her case.

For example -- I am a bit perplexed by the large number of seasoned tourers who suggest that it is *best* to rely on previous generations of drive trains (ex: 7-8-9 speed) rather than what is currently the norm (10 if not 11-speed). The usual arguments being that 7-8 speed are more common in the developing world such that spares are less of an issue, but also that these older systems are more reliable than more recent ones. It also turns out that a 7-speed cassette sells for close to $10 whereas high-end 11-speed cassettes are close to $200.

I have personally settled on XT 10-speed, but would be hard pressed to justify the price differential between, say, DEORE vs XT. My decision was based on the assumption that higher end components must be somewhat better than entry-level and on a blurb, published somewhere in a magazine, saying that higher end components shift better and are more durable, up to XT. (i.e. XTR buys a few grams, maybe an even smoother experience, but is not build to last more).
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Old 10-20-16, 01:31 PM   #129
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Yes, best is a subjective term. I guess I use good enough in the sense that it will get the job done in a reasonable way. If one wants more than good enough that's ok but I figure one needs a sort of benchmark level to aim for. As an example, many newer department store bikes have very flimsy brake/shifter attachment points and I would say some of them are not "good enough" for touring in the sense that the chance of failure is too great for the task. Around the block, not so much. But I could also go with best as you describe.

The drive train issue is interesting because it can incorporate different ideas about equipment so there isn't an objective "best". I like stuff I can fix and what usually goes along with 10 speed cassettes is index shifting. So my choice for one is partly based on the other. I find I can loaded tour on 7 X 3 so it is good enough, considering I can also adjust and fix friction shifters in the field. Someone else may be more skilled at fixing them than me, or not mind using a shop more often, so they may get a small benefit from more gears... I dunno about that though with loaded touring and would accept either argument depending on the approach involved.

Someone will say "but brifters never fail". Maybe so. All I know is I have a set in my garage on a donor bike that won't work.

I'm currently doing a dropbar conversion on my mtb and have those donor set of brifters but the hassle of taking them in, getting them fixed or replaced and then worrying if it happens in the future is too much for me. I won't use them, opting for bar ends which I actually have to buy but know I understand. Backwards technology wise but "best" for me in the long run for loaded touring.

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Old 01-11-17, 05:12 AM   #130
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Chains for 3 x 6, 7, 8 are the same width, noticeably thicker than a 10 or 11 speed, as are sprockets and chain rings. So for the same quality level, longer wearing. And when the thinner chain and cassette costs a 10th as much why wouldn't you?
Then there is the ratio range, I run 44 34 20 chain rings and 12 to 34 on the rear... 630% versus 380% for a 11 to 42 single speed.
What is getting harder is finding better quality 8 speed components. Something a little more longer lasting than Acera or Alivio, because I'm not into disposable parts.
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Old 01-11-17, 10:11 AM   #131
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For me a lot of this argument is about quality control as well. I expect higher quality control when I buy more expensive stuff. More time spent welding joints properly, Stronger material. etc. And that means the end product will be stronger, more durable, and perform better.
Go ahead and do "good enough" if you wish. I hit a balance with my budget. I've heard that Di2 for a triple is far superior than cable operated. I'm old enough that I don't have time to ride around on a junk bicycle. Except maybe to the grocery.
For me the main problem within this argument are the folks that want to equate "good enough" with "as good as". For me my Trek 920 is good enough, the LHT was not, my checking account said so. But neither are certainly not "as good as" a Co-motion Americano with Di2 and carbon bits.

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Old 01-11-17, 10:26 AM   #132
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Got so much Dosh available you can stay in Hotels to keep your $5000 of bike and gear safe?

Like eating prepared meals in Restaurants , or just fast food burgers,
Touring other countries it would be a shame to not enjoy the local Cuisine.

BBC TV series by Author of 'Fat Man on a Bicycle' books Tom Vernon was More about the where ,
the people and the food, than the bike..




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Old 01-11-17, 11:18 AM   #133
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Touring other countries it would be a shame to not enjoy the local Cuisine.
Everyone's ideals are different. I've been to on the order of two dozen different countries, while I have no problem eating the local cuisine, it generally brings me no particular joy. I'm not a foodie, food is something I must to do live. Sure, I'll make way to hit a place or two while I'm there, and if there is a street food I particularly like I'll have no problem subsisting on it, but I've also got no shame eating at McDonalds or making pasta in the hostel kitchen.
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Old 01-11-17, 11:22 AM   #134
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Got so much Dosh available you can stay in Hotels to keep your $5000 of bike and gear safe?

Like eating prepared meals in Restaurants , or just fast food burgers,
Touring other countries it would be a shame to not enjoy the local Cuisine.

BBC TV series by Author of 'Fat Man on a Bicycle' books Tom Vernon was More about the where ,
the people and the food, than the bike..




Well said Bob.
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Old 01-11-17, 11:49 AM   #135
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Everyone's ideals are different. I've been to on the order of two dozen different countries, while I have no problem eating the local cuisine, it generally brings me no particular joy. I'm not a foodie, food is something I must to do live. Sure, I'll make way to hit a place or two while I'm there, and if there is a street food I particularly like I'll have no problem subsisting on it, but I've also got no shame eating at McDonalds or making pasta in the hostel kitchen.
McDonalds was the only place I could find free wifi in Lisbon Portugal when I was there. That pushed it higher on my list of go-to restaurants.

When I am solo, I have less pleasure when eating in restaurants than I do when I am with someone. Thus, when solo I am very content to buy some lunch meat and cheese and some fresh baked rolls to eat in a park somewhere.

My trip to Iceland this past summer, I think about half of my purchased meals were fish and chips.
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Old 01-11-17, 03:13 PM   #136
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For me the main problem...
... Is that you continuously champion stuff you don't own (like Di2) and criticize stuff you haven't used (like the LHT) and, you tend to mistepresent what people say (like claiming some bikes are "as good as" others). No one said that and most offer opinions based on equipment they have used longer than a ride around the parking lot.

Wouldn't life be a lot easier and more pleasant if one just talked about the stuff they knew about? So yeah, we don't get to be xpurts but almost all of us do that and get along pretty well.

Not trying to be harsh, it's just that I see you trying hard to participate and always in conflict because you keep refering to experiences and ideas rhat aren't your own.

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Old 01-11-17, 08:38 PM   #137
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Electronic shifting sounds mildly interesting but I doubt it will be optimized for touring so not much cost-efffectiveness IMO.

Icelandic fish 'n chips looks pretty good but apparently some Icelanders are not riding bikes or wrestling fish nets 10 hrs/day & have a surprisingly high rate of obesity.
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Old 01-11-17, 09:05 PM   #138
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Electronic shifting sounds mildly interesting but I doubt it will be optimized for touring so not much cost-efffectiveness IMO..
don't see the need for it in regards to touring.
better crispier shifting great for time trials, but touring?
maybe depending on your style of riding.
a few advantages.......cables/housings don't get
gunked up or need adjustment. minor things really.
doesn't justify the expense for me, plus the possibility
of the repair costs.
can hook up to your gps or data collection system
if that appeals.
one biggie....can have multiple shifters/brake levers
in various locations on the bars...heck, why not just
incorporate into your gloves?

but what do you do when putin hacks your Di2?

from elsewhere on the interwebs:

Louis: We have become a society of appliance operators and cycling is no exception.
The next step might be to invent a bicycle that rides itself. An on-board computer could
send texts and pictures back to our smartphones to let us know how much fun we're having.

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Old 01-11-17, 09:50 PM   #139
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Another battery to keep charged on tour? I can live with a flat phone, just, but not being able to change gears?
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Old 01-11-17, 10:11 PM   #140
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The ONLY ultimate for me is something that will take me 20,000 miles, for starters, with 100% function and not much service or cleaning. Rohloff and Sturmey Archer XL-FDD are doing just that. SMP tires do half that now. My Edelux light is perfect also. I see nothing wrong with my Phil sqT BB either.
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Old 01-11-17, 10:40 PM   #141
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... Is that you continuously champion stuff you don't own (like Di2) and criticize stuff you haven't used (like the LHT) and, you tend to mistepresent what people say (like claiming some bikes are "as good as" others). No one said that and most offer opinions based on equipment they have used longer than a ride around the parking lot.

Wouldn't life be a lot easier and more pleasant if one just talked about the stuff they knew about? So yeah, we don't get to be xpurts but almost all of us do that and get along pretty well.

Not trying to be harsh, it's just that I see you trying hard to participate and always in conflict because you keep refering to experiences and ideas rhat aren't your own.
Wrong again as usual. Maybe you should stick with posting what you know about. Your words about expensive gains nothing in quality. You are difficult to respond to because you are just so wrong outside of your tiny little box.
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Old 01-11-17, 11:01 PM   #142
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I had to re-read this thread to kind of, possibly, or even maybe find the meat of it all.

Touring bikes are such a moving target as so many different designs can and have been used running the gamut from ultra light to expedition level loaded touring that there isn't one ultimate bike. Paraphrasing an old car racing adage, there is always somebody that has spent more than you (and me).

The ultimate touring bike is the one(s) you own that fits your pigeon hole in this niche. One thread that I did enjoy reading was @Rowan build of the two bikes used for a Europe and N. American tour. Just good reliable parts selection based on their considerable collective experience, and yes it was a fairly high end pair of bikes.

I think a better question is "What would you do to improve your bike and why?", but not in this thread.(!) This would certainly make one's bike more expensive and more ultimate.

Brad
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Old 01-12-17, 01:00 AM   #143
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You got me... We all get to choose who we are so carry on doin what your doin.

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Old 01-12-17, 01:28 AM   #144
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I think a better question is "What would you do to improve your bike and why?", but not in this thread.(!) This would certainly make one's bike more expensive and more ultimate.

Brad
At the risk of creating the ultimate bike, if I could do one thing that would greatly enhance my touring experiences it would be to install an anti theft device that emitted a loud alarm based on motion sensors and also had a discreet gps tracking beacon linked to the phone. Better if it were a well known design and you could put a big sticker indicating it was present as a visual deterrent.

To me, the problem with having a higher quality bike/components on a solo tour is the increased fear of theft and the limits it places on my movement. Tackling that would greatly increase my enjoyment while touring.

Call me old fashioned but my cr mo frame is strong and light enough, my brooks and Serfas saddles are comfortable enough, I can pedal and shift my xt components well enough and my schwalbe tires are tough enough.

What gets me is the nagging knowledge that everytime I leave it unattended, some crackhead with a pair of folding bolt cutters in his day pack can silently boost my bike in less than 30 seconds to strip and part out on CL and I have virtially no chance to stop or find it once that happens.

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Old 01-12-17, 07:52 AM   #145
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The ONLY ultimate for me is something that will take me 20,000 miles, for starters, with 100% function and not much service or cleaning. Rohloff and Sturmey Archer XL-FDD are doing just that.
Rohloff you say? Do tell more.*** <---sarcastrisks

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Old 01-12-17, 09:29 AM   #146
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Happy feet -- check out "Sammy Screamer" a small, light motion detector. designed mainly for purses or bags of any sort. It works off your smart phone, and might have GPS, $40 ?
There's something called Doberman XXX ? Google personal motion detectors. Good chance you'll find the right thing.
Somebody tried a motel room motion detector, hang on the knob thing. It had a problem of wrongly going off. I'm kinda concerned with a motion detector setting off by the wind if it was hanging from the hbar. But why wouldn't I put it in a bag or tied/taped to the bicycle.

Rohloff? I'ld spend the money on a better frame and better derailleurs. I hear MTBers will trash a derailleur some, but very infrequent. Road and tourers almost never.

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Old 01-12-17, 09:45 AM   #147
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At the risk of creating the ultimate bike, if I could do one thing that would greatly enhance my touring experiences it would be to install an anti theft device that emitted a loud alarm based on motion sensors and also had a discreet gps tracking beacon linked to the phone. Better if it were a well known design and you could put a big sticker indicating it was present as a visual deterrent.

To me, the problem with having a higher quality bike/components on a solo tour is the increased fear of theft and the limits it places on my movement. Tackling that would greatly increase my enjoyment while touring.....

.....What gets me is the nagging knowledge that everytime I leave it unattended, some crackhead with a pair of folding bolt cutters in his day pack can silently boost my bike in less than 30 seconds to strip and part out on CL and I have virtially no chance to stop or find it once that happens.
#1 reason I quit bicycle touring decades ago. A Brompton folder has been the only thing to rekindle that interest and I've owned folders since '91. I've gotten it to within just a few % points efficiency of my 22lbs CX bike (on road). So for me, this is would be my idea of the ultimate touring bike - a 16lb/27spd/Ti Brompton clone/$12-15K.

Ultimate Folding Bike
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Old 01-12-17, 10:07 AM   #148
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When I am solo, I have less pleasure when eating in restaurants than I do when I am with someone. Thus, when solo I am very content to buy some lunch meat and cheese and some fresh baked rolls to eat in a park somewhere.
Also, if I am solo in a foreign country, I want to experience the country. Much harder to strike up a conversation with a stranger at a dining room table, than it is at a bar. I'd rather spend my time and money in an environment where I can interact with the local population, not just eat a nice dish. Had many a good times taking off and doing things with some local who struck up a conversation with me.
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Old 01-12-17, 10:44 AM   #149
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My ultimate?
As many have said depends on what kind of touring.

Great Divide & fire roads. --- it would be a MTB. probably shock fork & seatpost. Di2, carbon components. triple crank? Nox carbon wheels or such. Rigid rear end. Probably stock carbon frame, maybe custom Ti or good steel. bikepacking.

Road and light gravel paths --- custom carbon, endurance/ adventure type geometry . carbon wheels and components, Di2. XTR. lower gears than compact. I like my 28-42 crank, good gearing for road touring, various cassettes 15-25, 12-28 to 12-36 . Ti racks, Likely a Rodeo or such carbon fork w/ eyelets, maybe a no mid-eyelet fork wt consideration 28 maybe 32 mm tire capable. Fenders. Possibly a stock Paris roubais style bicycle with above modifications. bikepacking and pannier capable.

CC touring -- Stock Paris Roubais style bicycle, compact gearing. 34-32 low should be okay. What does Cervelo make in that style? Rear rack only. Probably fenders Bikepacking.

Heavy touring road --- Co-motion Americano or Cascadia. components much like the road bicycle with a bit lower gears, front rack also. triple crank, 853 steel? or a Ti version.

Touring tandem --- Much like the touring road, definately with a mid-eyelet fork.

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Old 01-12-17, 04:02 PM   #150
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The ONLY ultimate for me is something that will take me 20,000 miles, for starters, with 100% function and not much service or cleaning. Rohloff and Sturmey Archer XL-FDD are doing just that. SMP tires do half that now. My Edelux light is perfect also. I see nothing wrong with my Phil sqT BB either.
Gambler --- thought you might want to know that the Salsa Fargo now comes with a split rear dropout for belt drive stuff. Like belt drive Rolhoff.
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