Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Touring
Reload this Page >

What would be the benefits of getting a better frame?

Touring Have a dream to ride a bike across your state, across the country, or around the world? Self-contained or fully supported? Trade ideas, adventures, and more in our bicycle touring forum.

What would be the benefits of getting a better frame?

Old 11-05-16, 07:39 PM
  #1  
Inpd
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 1,825
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 398 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
What would be the benefits of getting a better frame?

Hi,

So recall I bought a Windsor tourist (essentially Fuji tourist pre-2009) for $350 essentially for the components and the frame was free (see http://www.bikeforums.net/touring/10...ts-review.html)

I've now done a small tour on it and even a couple of long all day centuries and its perfectly fine.

The bike is quite light (under 26 pounds)
The frame is stiff (no BB flex)
It handles quite well even fully with 30+ pounds
I put some aero bars on it and now can ride it quite comfortably.

So what would be the benefits of upgrading the frameset. It was alway my intention to do so.

For those you who don't know me, I like to build up bikes so feel free to make suggestions on a better frameset but be sure to say *why*!

Last edited by Inpd; 11-05-16 at 08:19 PM.
Inpd is offline  
Old 11-05-16, 07:51 PM
  #2  
shelbyfv
Senior Member
 
shelbyfv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,236
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1090 Post(s)
Liked 123 Times in 81 Posts
No benefit to you, IMO. You seem to prefer that level of equipment, seems perfectly adequate for your actual use.
shelbyfv is offline  
Old 11-05-16, 07:54 PM
  #3  
bwgride
Slow Rider
 
bwgride's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 1,043
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
If the bike is comfortable and works for your needs, then there is no need to change frames.
bwgride is offline  
Old 11-05-16, 08:18 PM
  #4  
Inpd
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 1,825
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 398 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
No benefit to you, IMO. You seem to prefer that level of equipment, seems perfectly adequate for your actual use.
Hey are you calling me cheap!

Seriously, this touring frameset thing has me a bit confused. With a road bike I know that more money will get you a lighter frameset but for touring framesets I don't know what a more expensive frameset would get me.
Inpd is offline  
Old 11-05-16, 09:13 PM
  #5  
saddlesores
Senior Member
 
saddlesores's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bangkok...and....Hainan
Posts: 2,992

Bikes: inferior steel....and....noodly aluminium

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 698 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by Inpd View Post
... this touring frameset thing has me a bit confused. With a road bike I know that more money will get you a lighter frameset but for touring framesets I don't know what a more expensive frameset would get me.
a lighter wallet.
saddlesores is offline  
Old 11-05-16, 09:17 PM
  #6  
mstateglfr 
Sunshine
 
mstateglfr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 8,296

Bikes: '87 Schwinn Prelude, Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara/Centurion Ironman, '18 Diamondback Syncr, '18 handmade steel roadbike

Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2962 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 144 Times in 102 Posts
You have a bike which meets your expectations and also meets some hopes.
You mention no negatives, so i dont know what could be improved.

You need to list negatives with what you currently have to figure out what can be better.
mstateglfr is offline  
Old 11-05-16, 09:27 PM
  #7  
Inpd
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 1,825
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 398 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
You have a bike which meets your expectations and also meets some hopes.
You mention no negatives, so i dont know what could be improved.

You need to list negatives with what you currently have to figure out what can be better.
I really don't have enough experience touring to understand what the negatives would be.

But there must be some differences b/w the cheaper framesets like mine and the more expensive? I just don't quite understand what they would be. It's not apparent to me as it would be say for road bikes where the cheaper steel framesets use Chromoly 4130 and the expensive ones use exotic tubing such as Reynolds 853 or even 953.
Inpd is offline  
Old 11-05-16, 09:55 PM
  #8  
Squeezebox
Banned.
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 2,087
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 760 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Might as well keep what you've got until you can tell the difference. Is there a difference other than just the cost? Sure there is.
I've always been one to keep the level of components even with the frame set. I think there's no sense in a great frame and cheap components or vise versa.
Squeezebox is offline  
Old 11-05-16, 10:13 PM
  #9  
robow
Senior Member
 
robow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,199
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 246 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
A more expensive frame set will likely get you a better paint job and better looking decals, prettier welds, possibly more braze ons, maybe better steel.... meaning possibly lighter weight but just as durable if not more so and finally a better fork that might be a little more attractive and might be a little more comfy.
All in all, it won't likely be any more functional than what your already have.
robow is offline  
Old 11-06-16, 12:26 AM
  #10  
Happy Feet
Senior Member
 
Happy Feet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,225
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1211 Post(s)
Liked 104 Times in 63 Posts
Road bikes, which derive their advances from racing, have a definite outcome they are trying to achieve. This a to go faster. One way to go faster, all other variables being equal, is to be lighter and to be able to shift better etc... Thus a higher level of frame and components benefit the advanced rider. There is a direct correlation.

Touring really does not have that sort of motivation (usually). Being 5lbs lighter does not play that big of role when you are carrying 30lbs of gear and honestly, probably more than 20lbs of fat you could shed first (well, I could anyway). Being able to micro shift when you are riding at moderate speeds along the shoulder of a hwy for 8 hours is not big on the need list either. If there is a motivation, for loaded touring, it may be to be more trouble free and robust. Beyond a certain point higher level frames and components do not really offer that.

One may argue that the speed offered by a higher quality frame or components is desired and I say sure, when the rider has achieved a fitness level high enough that they outstrip the potential of their current bike. But how many tourers are really in that boat.

If you want to spend some money on your bike, but not a lot, I would begin investing in better components that can transfer from bike to bike and which may actually improve the quality of the ride. A better saddle, better wheelsets, better racks, better panniers, generator hubs, lights etc... or better camping gear like tents or clothing.

Just my 2CW...
Happy Feet is offline  
Old 11-06-16, 02:59 AM
  #11  
saddlesores
Senior Member
 
saddlesores's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bangkok...and....Hainan
Posts: 2,992

Bikes: inferior steel....and....noodly aluminium

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 698 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
... or better camping gear like tents or clothing.

sinking an extra $500 into a "better" frame will likely only get you marginal,
if any, improvement.

investing that same $500 in higher quality gear can make a big difference
in your touring experience.
saddlesores is offline  
Old 11-06-16, 03:33 AM
  #12  
lightspree
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 380
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Inpd View Post
Hi,

So recall I bought a Windsor tourist (essentially Fuji tourist pre-2009) for $350 essentially for the components and the frame was free (see http://www.bikeforums.net/touring/10...ts-review.html)

I've now done a small tour on it and even a couple of long all day centuries and its perfectly fine.

The bike is quite light (under 26 pounds)
The frame is stiff (no BB flex)
It handles quite well even fully with 30+ pounds
I put some aero bars on it and now can ride it quite comfortably.

So what would be the benefits of upgrading the frameset. It was alway my intention to do so.

For those you who don't know me, I like to build up bikes so feel free to make suggestions on a better frameset but be sure to say *why*!
You might even end up with a less satisfactory riding experience. More expensive isn't always better. Sometimes it's actually worse.

Inexpensive or less expensive can sometimes hit a sweet spot and be just fine.

Last edited by lightspree; 11-06-16 at 04:06 AM.
lightspree is offline  
Old 11-06-16, 04:03 AM
  #13  
bradtx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Pearland, Texas
Posts: 7,580

Bikes: Cannondale, Trek, Raleigh, Santana

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 304 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Inpd, If the frame is stiff enough not to flex with a load, it's good to go. A lot of Fujis and Windsor Tourists are in use without complaint. 26 lb. is pretty light for a touring bike so there's little room for improvement with a different frame. The cockpit is comfortable for you now, so again, little chance for improvement.

From all that I've read, the biggest improvement to be made with a bargain priced bicycle is to have the wheel set re-tensioned. Spend a little money for this or DIY. I agree that your best bang for the buck will be with high quality gear.

I have built and rebuilt high end roadies and when I initially built my touring bike I predicted that if I liked the activity, I'd do the same with it. I haven't because it simply works fine as is. I do plan to upgrade the wheel set, but only because my beater will need rims soon and will inherit what's presently on the touring bike.

Brad
bradtx is offline  
Old 11-06-16, 07:35 AM
  #14  
Tourist in MSN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 5,794

Bikes: 1961 Ideor, 1994 Bridgestone MB-6, 2006 Airnimal Joey, 2009 Thorn Sherpa, 2013 Thorn Nomad, 2015 VO Pass Hunter, 2017 Lynskey Backroad, 2017 Raleigh Gran Prix, Perfekt 3 Speed -age unknown, 1980s Bianchi Mixte on a trainer. Others are now gone.

Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1235 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 11 Times in 10 Posts
Originally Posted by Inpd View Post
I really don't have enough experience touring to understand what the negatives would be.
....
Then it is perfect for you. Be happy.

I do not recall if a Windsor Tourist is a 130mm or 135mm rear dropout. If it was me, I would want a 135, but if you are a light rider carrying about 30 pounds, maybe a 130 spaced rear hub will completely meet your needs. (A 135 hub is results in a wheel with slightly less dish.) And I assume the rear wheel is 36 spokes, most touring bikes are.

Originally Posted by Inpd View Post
...
But there must be some differences b/w the cheaper framesets like mine and the more expensive? I just don't quite understand what they would be. It's not apparent to me as it would be say for road bikes where the cheaper steel framesets use Chromoly 4130 and the expensive ones use exotic tubing such as Reynolds 853 or even 953.
Costs are variable for what are often no good reason. And costs vary with more fittings welded on it, better paint, perhaps some additional frame details, the grinding to smooth out the metal at the welds, maybe (or not) heat treating the frame after welding, maybe a clear coat on top of the paint (one of my bikes has clear coat over the decals to make them permanent), metal head badge vs decal, etc.

Small batch vs economies of scale can impact cost, and this still assumes that the manufacturer makes the same amount per frame regardless of which brand it is for and that can vary too. By manufacturer, I mean the company that made it, not the company that put their label on it.

And some supply chains are extraordinarily profit driven whereas others try to make their money in a large number of sales. For example I bought my Rohloff hub directly from Germany for less than a thousand, but the company that sold it has been told to quit selling to USA customers, the USA distributor does not like competition. The supply chain in USA has pushed the price up to about 50 percent higher than it would cost directly from Europe. In this case, there was a supply chain in Europe that was perfectly willing to sell a product without a huge profit margin, but that has been replaced by a supply chain with huge markups and few sales.

And that is just the costs that went into making the frame. Any economist will tell you that the value of something is what someone is willing to pay for it. Marketing, reputation, bling factor or cool factor, all affect what an individual is willing to pay.

Originally Posted by bradtx View Post
...
From all that I've read, the biggest improvement to be made with a bargain priced bicycle is to have the wheel set re-tensioned. Spend a little money for this or DIY. I agree that your best bang for the buck will be with high quality gear.
...
I agree with Brad, I have never seen a Windsor Tourist, but from what I have read, eventually the spokes and/or nipples start to go. If I was going to do a really long tour on one (over a thousand miles) I might get a new rear wheel for it, but for shorter tours I would just carry spare spokes and the tools and knowledge on how to replace them - or carry some fiber fix type replacements.

Last edited by Tourist in MSN; 11-06-16 at 07:39 AM.
Tourist in MSN is offline  
Old 11-06-16, 08:15 AM
  #15  
wphamilton
Senior Member
 
wphamilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 14,551

Bikes: Nashbar Road

Mentioned: 65 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2505 Post(s)
Liked 55 Times in 33 Posts
I don't get it. If a frame does provide benefits, won't Inpd benefit as well regardless of whether he has the experience now to understand what they are?

He might correct his current negatives even without first knowing first hand what they are, surely. So someone said "flex", several said "marketing", what else?
wphamilton is offline  
Old 11-06-16, 08:33 AM
  #16  
djb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Montreal Canada
Posts: 8,878
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1087 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 38 Times in 30 Posts
I figure that you'd have to ride diff bikes with panniers on and compare back to back to feel much of a difference. But dont forget, there are many factors that come into play, wheelsets, tires, racks.

I strongly suspect that this bike is very very similar to my old 1990 touring bike in how it rides, and I had a great time touring on this bike. Yes, when I rode and bought newer bikes I can see that my old bike is more flexy, but in the big scheme of things it worked and I had wonderful adventures on it, so there you go....

as you say, you don't have a lot of touring experience so you might not even notice a diff between a diff frame, probably you would if you did bac to back rides with similar weight, racks etc , but we come back to my first comments--ride it, use it and enjoy your trips.
djb is offline  
Old 11-06-16, 09:16 AM
  #17  
mstateglfr 
Sunshine
 
mstateglfr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 8,296

Bikes: '87 Schwinn Prelude, Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara/Centurion Ironman, '18 Diamondback Syncr, '18 handmade steel roadbike

Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2962 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 144 Times in 102 Posts
Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
I don't get it. If a frame does provide benefits, won't Inpd benefit as well regardless of whether he has the experience now to understand what they are?

He might correct his current negatives even without first knowing first hand what they are, surely. So someone said "flex", several said "marketing", what else?
If he buys a more expensive frame that doesnt have anything more than his current frame, then what benefit was there?
If he cant identify what thencurrent frame is lacking, then how can any benefits be determined?


Here is an example- i love the touring bike i build from an old '90 fuji made frane. Fits me great, comfortable ride, etc. I with the fork had those 3 bottle bosses that Surly, Salsa, and some other forks have. It would be nice to chose between a front rack and being able to just attach a couple of Anything Cages to the fork.


I have identified something lacking in my cureent frame. With that said, i love what i have way more than my desire for some bottle bosses on the fork.


If the OP cant say he wishes for something that isnt on his cureent frame, then no i dont think there would be a benefit derived from a new frame. Even if sonethi g got better, if he doesbt know its better, it isnt valued as having gotten better and essentially goes wasted.
mstateglfr is offline  
Old 11-06-16, 09:18 AM
  #18  
wphamilton
Senior Member
 
wphamilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 14,551

Bikes: Nashbar Road

Mentioned: 65 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2505 Post(s)
Liked 55 Times in 33 Posts
Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
If he buys a more expensive frame that doesnt have anything more than his current frame, then what benefit was there?
That's what he's asking, isn't it?

Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
If he cant identify what thencurrent frame is lacking, then how can any benefits be determined?
Do those benefits disappear somehow if he doesn't know them in advance?
wphamilton is offline  
Old 11-06-16, 09:20 AM
  #19  
bikemig 
Senior Member
 
bikemig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Middle Earth (aka IA)
Posts: 15,127

Bikes: A bunch of old bikes and a few new ones

Mentioned: 107 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3610 Post(s)
Liked 64 Times in 57 Posts
Originally Posted by robow View Post
A more expensive frame set will likely get you a better paint job and better looking decals, prettier welds, possibly more braze ons, maybe better steel.... meaning possibly lighter weight but just as durable if not more so and finally a better fork that might be a little more attractive and might be a little more comfy.
All in all, it won't likely be any more functional than what your already have.
+ 1 on all of this. I'd put my money in parts before a "better" frame; I'd focus on a first rate set of wheels. Also the windsor came stock with a 130/74 bcd crank which would not be my choice for a touring bike.
bikemig is offline  
Old 11-06-16, 09:22 AM
  #20  
mstateglfr 
Sunshine
 
mstateglfr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 8,296

Bikes: '87 Schwinn Prelude, Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara/Centurion Ironman, '18 Diamondback Syncr, '18 handmade steel roadbike

Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2962 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 144 Times in 102 Posts
Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
That's what he's asking, isn't it?



Do those benefits disappear somehow if he doesn't know them in advance?

Yes, my loint is that he needs to know what is lacking so he buys a frame that specifically addresses what is lacking.

And if he buys a better frane nut never recognizes that it is better, it will be seen as a waste of money due to a lack of recognition. Thats the reality with pretty much any good or service and why advertising and sales people work on highlighting the differences, so cost can be justified.
mstateglfr is offline  
Old 11-06-16, 09:25 AM
  #21  
staehpj1 
Senior Member
 
staehpj1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 9,244
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 154 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
In my opinion, not much. The WT is a pretty nice frame IMO. You could save a little weight or have different geometry, but not much weight and the geometry is about what I like for medium weight touring. I rode a sportier bike on my recent tours, but mostly because I have gone to a fairly radically minimal ultra light packing style. Some people like a more truck like geometry especially if packing really heavy. The WT is right in the middle and does it all fairly well.
staehpj1 is offline  
Old 11-06-16, 09:44 AM
  #22  
wphamilton
Senior Member
 
wphamilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 14,551

Bikes: Nashbar Road

Mentioned: 65 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2505 Post(s)
Liked 55 Times in 33 Posts
Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
Yes, my loint is that he needs to know what is lacking so he buys a frame that specifically addresses what is lacking.

And if he buys a better frane nut never recognizes that it is better, it will be seen as a waste of money due to a lack of recognition. Thats the reality with pretty much any good or service and why advertising and sales people work on highlighting the differences, so cost can be justified.
Isn't that a pretty far-fetched hypothetical? I don't know about you, but I've never had that happen on any purchase. If it was actually better, I recognized the benefit regardless of whether I was looking for it.

It's just a non-answer that "if you have to ask, don't bother" and IME almost always wrong. I appreciate the folks who are answering Inpd's question and I'll shut up now.
wphamilton is offline  
Old 11-06-16, 09:52 AM
  #23  
Happy Feet
Senior Member
 
Happy Feet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,225
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1211 Post(s)
Liked 104 Times in 63 Posts
Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
Do those benefits disappear somehow if he doesn't know them in advance?
Unless someone can list a real tangible benefit to a more expensive frame I might suggest other benefits are perceived by the individual. Third bottle cage mount under the down tube being an example. Is it a benefit if you don't perceive a need to carry a bottle there? Same with bosses on the fork. If you don't see the need for them what advantage do they offer?

Some higher end frames actually cause problems. There are several threads here from CF owners looking for solutions to mounting racks on frames without eyelets. Even the very simple solution of using P clamps, which any lower end chromo frame can handle needs extra attention to detail.

Recently I have been doing a drop bar conversion on my touring mtb and shopping around for parts. Does a CF bar listed for $200 do anything more than the Al one listed for $25 in a touring application? No. The real benefit is that it is lighter, which may be of some benefit for a racer but on a loaded bike the only real benefit is negligible.
Happy Feet is offline  
Old 11-06-16, 09:56 AM
  #24  
wphamilton
Senior Member
 
wphamilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 14,551

Bikes: Nashbar Road

Mentioned: 65 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2505 Post(s)
Liked 55 Times in 33 Posts
Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
Unless someone can list a real tangible benefit to a more expensive frame I might suggest other benefits are perceived by the individual. Third bottle cage mount under the down tube being an example. Is it a benefit if you don't perceive a need to carry a bottle there? Same with bosses on the fork. If you don't see the need for them what advantage do they offer?
....
I agree, and appreciate the folks listing benefits as they see them, as opposed to the idea that if Inpd doesn't know already it doesn't matter.
wphamilton is offline  
Old 11-06-16, 09:58 AM
  #25  
escii_35
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: PNW lifer
Posts: 553

Bikes: 2007 C-dale 63cm T series. My 1994 was a better design 1994 Bianchi 61cm El/OS Sachs 2004 Rodreguiz 26' UTB touring thing

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
To answer the OP's question please look at the braze-on and drop out development on the LHT over time.

#2. Do you need air travel folding capabilities?

#3. Will owning the latest bike tech (or not so latest) make your ride better. Gear box, belt drive...

#4. Are you tall or South of Clydesdale weight?
escii_35 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.