indyfabz

Nailed it. And if you are riding with panniers, they can absorb some of the impact.

wphamilton

Yes, a low side fall or straight over, landing on the shoulder can snap the collar bone.

It IS best to put a hand out in that fall, but only away from your body not straight out to the ground. Better if you can twist enough to land more flat instead of directly on your shoulder.

Carbonfiberboy 

Oy, clip people. I'm sorry but you're wrong about one thing: all my crashes were pilot error. A decade as a tandem captain has driven that into my head. There pretty much isn't another sort. It's usually either stupidity, inattention, lack of skill (riding over one's head), or poor choice of equipment.

I believe SPDs are safer because being able to get rid of the bicycle will usually result in less serious injuries. Nothing to do with cause of crash. If you're not riding with tight clips, you're not riding as well as you could be with clipless. There are reasons that racers quit using clips decades ago.

I get that some tourers prefer softer shoes with or without clips for convenience, which is a good choice. However to argue that there's no performance or injury penalty is unnecessary denial.

andrewclaus

I get what you mean here. I saw a hiker fall once and was amazed at how gracefully he did it. Turns out he had a brown belt in judo. As he arose from the fall he said, "All those hours on the mat finally paid off."

Chuck Naill

Ya yes, we all need to do what racers do. I'll repeat myself. There seems to be a need for speed and that will cause a crash sooner and less forgiving that moving slow generally.

I have both styles and opted for clips so I don't have to carry two pairs of shoes and I won't be on ice skates if I need to walk around. A racer is not concerned about two pairs of shoes or walking around.

Chuck Naill

Do you really think you will win the argument that speed and driver error combined result in fewer fatalities? If you take a fall at 30 miles per hour does the speed complicate or uncomplicated the result of that fall? Will you slid further. Will you hit the pole harder? If you go down an incline and meet a sudden dog leg to the left, does it matter if you are going 30 MPH or 15 ?


Drive slow enough to where you can see that limb before it hits you in the teeth or keeps you from plowing into the bike in front. Your personal best speed is going to depend mostly on your skills to pay attention and upright.

You obviously are not afraid of crashes and you think they make you a better cyclist. Perhaps you've hit your noggin and sustained more damage than you thought.


Using common sense is not the same as fear or timidity. However, as you age, injuries take longer to heal and some head injuries can end your fun indefinitely. Like my white water mentor say, "if you want to live to be an old paddler there are decisions you make on what levels and rapids you run."

Did you practice your skills for falling on turf or concrete?

Chuck Naill

Hikers practice falling and for hours?

Doug64

I can relate. I also used judo as means of fine tuning body control while sailing through the air when I was skiing hard; plus, it was fun. I once got an applause from the folks on the ski lift for one of my more spectacular crashes (and recovery)

Taking a fall on an outstretched arm is much worse than landing on your shoulder and rolling. I believe it is the outstretched arm fall that causes most collarbone injuries. Using the shoulder and other surfaces of your body to dissipate the force of the fall is usually better. I've had several pretty serious bike crashes, and do my best to just hang tight to the bars until the dust settles. I've had a lot of stitches and road rash, but no broken bones.

I read something a long time ago that went something like this: "Road rash is not a red badge of courage; it is generally just an indication of poor bike handling."

https://cyclingtips.com/2010/11/the-broken-collarbone/

wphamilton

We all have differing risk assessments and your advice seems much more risk averse than many of us prefer.

BTW, I've practiced falls on concrete. It's not all that daredevil

Chuck Naill

Do you practice falling on your left and right side? Do you practice up to speed or standing still?

Do you ride in an area at night with limbs without lights to learn what to do when one hits you in the teeth? Do you intentionally put up barriers to get experience with going over the handlebars?

My issue was not with taking risks. It's a free country. My complaint is using accidents as a strategy of becoming a better cyclist rather than using common sense.

cyccommute 

Um...you do realize I was talking about driving cars at 30 mph, don't you? A lower automobile speed does result in fewer fatalities but getting people to understand that and significantly reduce their speed is a fool's errand.

Huh? What "limb"? What bike in front of you? For on road riding, I've yet to run into a limb. I haven't run into anyone in front of me either because I'm not going to draft someone closely unless I know them really well. On the other hand, if I were to run into a limb I didn't see or run into someone in front of me, speed probably has nothing to do with it. That's just inattention and could happen at any speed. Given my experiences, I'd say that most people would be more likely to run into something at slow speeds than at higher speeds because they aren't paying as much attention at low speed.

No, I'm not "afraid of crashes". That doesn't mean I like them but as they are inevitable, I know how to deal with them. If you never crash, you never learn how to deal with crashing. Does that make you a better cyclist? How do you deal with a crash when it comes?



For the most part too much "common sense" is the same as fear and timidity. Many people won't ride a bicycle because they are too afraid of crashing. I hear that comment all the time.

I already told you. Mostly on rocks. Sometimes on gravel. Sometimes on ice. Never on anything soft. Even snow isn't all that soft.

cyccommute 

Well if someone is going to ride at night without lights in an area with low branches, they get what they deserve.

You also seem to be under the delusion that people actively seek crashes. Perhaps a small minority do but most don't. That doesn't mean that you can't learn something when you are handed an opportunity. I'd bet the guy who gets smacked with the branch won't ride in the dark without lights again.

Carbonfiberboy 

You bring up an amusing point. One thing which always startles me when riding with much slower cyclists: how fast and dangerous the motor vehicles seem to be. It's very noticeable to me. On the bike, kinetic energy is my friend. Indeed I've heard a common MTB mantra: "speed is your friend."

One can avoid "ice skates" simply by using a modern MTB shoe and SPDs. Most of the folks around here use Sidi Dominators. Stiff as a road shoe but comfortable to walk around in. Plus even on the tandem, if it's under 19% I don't have to walk it. I had my fill of cold, tired, pinched feet when I rode with clips as a young man. I bring Goretex trail runners on tour and certainly wouldn't want to ride in them but they're great for hiking and around town, even in the rain.

Making a list of bike stuff in order of importance to a happy ride, I would go: clothes, shoes and pedals, food, tires, bike. It's odd to me how folks focus so much on the bike, though these days tires seem to be getting a better share of discussions. I think tires should figure more prominently than pedals in any discussion of crashing. Clothes, too. Here in the PNW, I'm slightly terrified every time I go out in the spring for the first time with bare knees and elbows. OTOH, I've had friends with $450 worth of clothes cut off them. Skin heals, Assos doesn't.

Chuck Naill

And the logic is? I never think about the car's speed. I admit the large diesel trucks with pipes coming out of the bed bearing down is a bit disconcerting, but I manage by staying focused. Of course, you are comparing MTB with touring. Do you think the comparison is accurate?

I looked at some of those MTB shoes. They were heavy as lead and more than I felt I wanted to spend on new pedals and shoes. I admit to being a bite old school oriented. I am not in a hurry and ride alone which I prefer except if it were family. I am the worse club member on Earth.

Since I was focused in a touring type of activity, the idea of using the same clothes I hike and paddle in made sense for me. I do have nice biking shorts and some loose fitting tights, water proof yellow jacket and a yellow vest. I couldn't be happier. If cycled enough to know what I need and want to do.

I agree with much of what your wrote.

Chuck Naill

I have no delusions about other cyclists. I'm just responding to what you wrote. If you are going to practice falling, why not practice all types of crashes and accidents?

Squeezebox

You're not listening Chuck. Calm down a bit. No! calm down a lot. Ride slow if you want, ride with unclipped shoes. Many here with a lot of experience feel that clipped in is safer. Practicing crashing in soft grass is a wise thing to do. Judo sounds even better. Learn from crashes if you can. I for one think that riding slow puts you as more of an obstacle to cars and therefore actually is more dangerous. I've met lots of folks that won't ride a bicycle because they are afraid. Ride with confidence and you will be safer.
There's a lot of difference in various MTB shoes you really can't say they feel like lead, at least not all.
Can someone explain to me about the not wanting to carry 2 pr of shoes thing. It's fast and easy to slip into a pr of shoes to walk in. And cycling shoes are so much better for riding in. this particularly from the folks who are carrying a bunch of heavy unnecessary stuff but won't carry the shoes they need. There's something here I just don't understand.

HTupolev

A pair of shoes can eat up several litres of pannier space, and add well over a pound, depending on the shoe. That's not a ton, but it's not nothing. If you're someone who doesn't feel like they're in particularly strong need of two shoes - whether because you feel fine riding platforms with highly-walkable shoes, or you're comfortable walking in your MTB shoes, or whatever - why bother? Especially if you're not someone who hikes.

It's even faster and easier not to.

Might depend on the person, and factors like what particular pedals are being used. I can't speak for really long rides, but I've done rides upwards of 70 miles on my hardtail in running shoes without issue.

shelbyfv

Happy Feet

I think it's pretty hilarious that the guy who put down so many people with his theoretical musings regarding ultra light touring needs help figuring out what the big deal is about taking two pairs of shoes. Why not just go over to whiteblaze.whatever and ask how many pairs of hiking boots they take on a trip and then post back to say how much more they know than us?

Whats so hard about that?

Kids... sheesh!

HobbesOnTour

there's been a few body blows in the last few posts.....but not all related to falling off a bike

My crash was in Northern Spain, while traveling along a rough, sandy, gravelly road. A submerged slippery rock (I like to think of it as a rocky iceberg!) sent my front wheel to the left, while myself, the rest of the bike and my gear attempted to continue directly forward. Rookie mistake (but instinct is very hard to ignore) meant that my right arm went down to absorb the impact. I hit the deck in a cloud of dust and lay shocked for a minute or two trying to figure out what just happened.

Interestingly, the first thing I did was to look up and see if anybody had seen my fall from grace! Thankfully, my shame was not for public consumption!
The second thing I did was regret not replacing the cycling gloves I had left behind in a bar a few weeks previously because my right hand was ripped badly, as was my right arm.

I patched myself up, checked the bike - no damage apart from a snapped wire for my bike computer, and cycled on. (Always carry a first-aid kit folks - when you need it - you really need it!)

The real pain came the next day - my ribs hurt like hell and my shoulder was not working properly. Not being a fan of hospitals I put off the medical check for 4 days until, i eventually relented. Bruised ribs and a dislocated shoulder were diagnosed. they wanted to put my arm in a cast - but I was traveling by bike & sleeping in a tent - that was not going to work. So, they gave me a very strange look, a prescription for extra strong painkillers and sent me on my way with a big wave (which could not be reciprocated!)

I lived and learned. No touring for me without gloves in the future.

Chuck Naill

I am not against going fast on a bicycle.

Maybe it is from by motorcycling since I was 14 that I've learned that speed is a factor when trying to avoid accidents on unfamiliar roads and gravel. You simply must learn think ahead if you want to ride a motorcycle safety. You begin to assume the car is going to pull out in front of you and this causes you to slow your speed. You do not assume anything. This is how I ride a bicycle. I am not afraid. I consider that I am realizing ahead of time that I will loose with any confrontation with an automobile. You look for gravel in the curves. You intuitively develop the skills of paying attention to elements that you would not driving a car.

Crashes are going to become more difficult from which to recover as we age. The body just looses the ability to recover. Head injuries occur regardless of whether you wear a helmet of not. People can go from being able to enjoy their lives to a skilled nursing facility in a matter of days. They can loose income, be on long term disability, and never be able to enjoy the freedom of activity again. Lets use some common sense and avoid driver error if at all possible.

The idea of thinking you can practice falling on grass and develop a skill to be used in a 30 MPH crash on asphalt is so ridiculous that it doesn't need really to be discussed, but apparently it does here because think common sense means to be afraid.

I would never tell someone who wants to use a type of pedal they are wrong. How can a preference be wrong? This is like telling someone chocolate is wrong because vanilla is right. What is the motive behind these comments? Why would anyone have a problem with someone not wanting to carry another pair of shoes and give the amount of time that is required to change? Is the reason I don't want to carry a pair of shoes because I am so time conscious that changing shoes takes too long?

rumrunn6

the "boot" scene from Deer Hunter, sorry couldn't resist

Squeezebox

But it sounds to me like many of the 1 pr of shoes folks could eject a lot of excess stuff they are carrying and save wt that way rather than the shoe issue. For me cycling and walking shoes are a necessity, a skillet is not. Hiking pants/shorts instead of jeans/cargo shorts for another example.
I personally can't ride any significant distance without cycling shoes and shorts. Injuries occur.
My crocs weigh 8 oz and slide under a bungie or such.
It's your ride, but I'll still bring my slip ons.

Snuts

This looks like the hot thread today. And here I go riding all day on my new bike. I can expect some good reading this eve.

I will not (intentionally) be practising any upset maneuvers.



-Snuts-

indyfabz

Hello. What's this thread about?