indyfabz

Same here.

Doug64

I just set up a pair of cantis on my wife's bike yesterday. She has short reach levers (less pull distance), and they still don't come close to her bars when applied much harder than is necessary to lock up the wheel. It is all in the setup.

I have used cantilever brakes in all kinds of conditions while touring , and ride with them almost daily in Oregon's wet winters. I have never had a stopping problem with well set up brakes. Also KoolStop salmon colored pads do a great job in wet weather.

Are cantilever brakes better than Disc brakes; I don't know, but they stop well enough.

revcp 

Here's an idea. Get disc AND canti. Well, disc OR canti. Still within the Surly family is the Troll. It's my commuting/singletrack/touring bike. Troll frames have the capacity to run disc brakes or cantilevers. You can also run it as a 26er or 29er (700c). So if you really can't decide then it makes sense to get a frame that could do either. The frame itself is more nimble than the LHT, it has fork braze ons for a Salsa Anything Cage. It's built to take it. Check one out.

BigAura

Weight Weenies-->Go HERE

DropBarFan

Well I think the levers would get to about 1" from handlebar & that was only in rare extreme situations...never AFAIK in real danger of bottoming out. Had the Shimano BR-50 cantis fairly well adjusted according to Sheldon etc, Perhaps Pauls or other models are firmer?

Always put priority on minimal lever travel: braking is more confident & easier from the hoods. Always loved Campy Record brakes, rock-solid & minimal lever travel. Too bad they don't make cantis.

phughes

I'm not sure. Different models and levers probably do make a difference, as do cables. If you have bad cables that stretch, then I could see it. I am still using the original brakes that came on the LHT along with SRAM levers.

Squeezebox

The discussion on light weight inner tubes was interesting. Anyone here have an opinion?

ColonelSanders

I'm tossing up between a Surly Troll and a 26" LHT and having a great deal of trouble deciding, especially as I am not going to be able to test either bike and will just be buying a new frame and building up from there.

When you say the Troll is more nimble, in what way does that manifest itself?

When I see the gusseting on the Troll at the headtube and toptube joining and the little bridge from the seat tube to the top tube, it strikes me with that reinforcing, the Troll should be a "stronger" bike than the LHT, yet I have read comments from someone saying they felt a LHT carried their luggage better than a Troll, as they had slight shimmy at speed on the Troll when loaded up.

I'm guessing this may be due to the LHT having a larger diameter downtube than the Troll?

Any insights one can share here, would be greatly appreciated.

revcp 

By "nimble" I mean you can ride singletrack with the Troll, but not with the LHT. The LHT is strictly a road or developed trail bike. The Troll is a very capable off road performer, not just because of the frame geometry, but also because you can use much wider tires than on the LHT.

As for shimmy, I've not had that. Could be because I'm set up with bikepacking gear, not racks and panniers, so the weight is inline with the bike, not hanging off the sides. Could also be that the comments are about a bike that was built up poorly.

The Troll will very capably do everything the LHT will do. The converse is not true. If you go with the Troll, and will be building up from the frame, I've built two now and would be happy to share things I've learned.

djb

I have some answers for you, but they are subjective and I haven't ridden a LHT. I generally prefer a bike that steers quicker than slower, I once rode a friends Trek 520, it had heavy marathon plus tires on it and a heavy front rack, and it steered so slowly I couldnt stand it.

I was in a similar situation as you, debating bikes 26inchers, and while I never got to ride a LHT nor a Troll, when I found a used troll and ended up buying it, one of the reasons I did buy it was because as it was set up as a mtn bike when I saw it, even with 2.5in mtn bike tires, it steered nice and lightly and quickly.
While I cant give you a direct comparison with the LHT, I do feel that this aspect of the Troll, shorter wheelbase etc, gives it a more "flickable" feel vs the LHT.

I set my troll up with dropbars and have ridden it fully loaded a lot lately, and am very happy with the handling. I very very much enjoy going fast around corners, and with proper loading, it handled very very competently in downhill curvy stuff, I would even describe it as "fun" handling going down mtn descents arounds corners at 50, 60kph.

Its a real shame you cannot ride either of the bikes. Do remember though, that tire choices and all kinds of factors determine how a bike feels. I remember my first touring bike that I bought in 90 or 91 had maybe 32mm tires on it, with tread, and a bit heavy--when I changed them to 28mm slicks that were much lighter, I still recall how more nimble the bike felt, the steering was more nimble, quicker...

In this regard, my Troll has Marathon Supreme slick tires on it, 26x2, much lighter and roll better than other Marathon models, I have a lightish front rack, and the wheelset is probably a bit lighter than others as well--all of this helps with it being both lighter at the front end and contributing to how it rides and "feels".

other factors, troll vs lht, I liked the idea of being able to put wider tires on it, even with the 50mm 2in tires, I have loads and loads of room for fender setup, my fenders have a large distance between tires and fenders (I was thinking mud issues) , and also I like the possibility of adding on fork bottle racks and whatnot, not to mention the versatility of the rear dropouts (which can present issues removing the rear wheel if the fender is setup too close, not a prob for me, I can slide the wheel out of the horizontal dropouts without touching the fender)

issues of the troll--shorter frame, lower frame, ie more seat tube showing (mtn bike frame design), shorter chainstays means maybe being careful of rack choice, pannier choice, re heel strike, not a problem for me with size 9 feet.
Setting up the dropbar, I had to use a very short stem, 50mm, as Surlys in general have longer toptubes, so be aware and copy the seat to bars reach of a dropbar bike you know works for you. Not an issue at all using a short stem.

re more stable, shimmy? I did feel a slight shimmy sometimes with my troll, but I feel this was just like any other bike I have toured on, and proper, equal weight on both sides, less weight high up, solved it right away. It happened a bit when I had too much extra water/weight in the rack pack on top of my rear panniers, moved the extra water to a pannier and it was fine.
*To make this point clear, the confident handling of my troll going down mountain passes over and over again was impressive. I found myself going into corners faster and with more confidence than any touring bike I have owned.
Part of this is frame, part is probably good sturdy racks, good sturdy pannier setup with no movement, the characteristics of the 2in slick Supremes that will proper inflation have a wonderful supple ride even fully loaded that gives a really effective suspension effect (supple sidewalls) that translates into the bike behaving very consistently going around corners fast.

again, its a shame you cant ride the bikes. All I can say is that I clearly was interested in a quicker handling bike to start with, so the "truck" part of the trucker had me always leaning towards a Troll from the get go, even though I had not ridden either bike.

BUT, both bikes will make good tourers, you need to figure what aspect of their riding characteristics is more important to you. A large part of my riding pleasure is a nice steering feel, and while this is all relative, we are talking about a loaded touring bike here, they are always going to feel slow, they aint road bikes, but I will always take lighter steering over slower steering from the get go as a priority.

VictorKnox

I have had both. I had a Troll as a commuter and now own a LHT. I can't compare loaded touring performance because I never had either of them loaded down, but as commuters with racks/bags/fenders/fat tires and relatively light loads, the Troll is a much nicer riding, quicker handling bike. I have used a few different vintage mountain bikes as commuters, and also owned other Surlys: Troll, Cross Check, Krampus, Pugsley, 1x1, so I am used to riding "heavy" bikes, but when I first got the Trucker I was shocked by how heavy it was. I am currently in the process of disassembling it to sell it and move on to something else for commuting. I read a lot about it being heavy and sluggish before I bought it, but I thought it would be no big deal because I was used to heavy bikes. Wrong. It is ridiculously heavy and sluggish feeling. The Troll never felt like that. I know people are going to say that I am not using it as intended, and they are right, but I know lots of people use Truckers as commuting or road bikes. I cannot understand how, and I am not even remotely a weight weenie; I only own steel bikes and have no desire for carbon fiber or aluminum.

I would say between the two, there is really no reason to pick the LHT. The Troll can do a lot of the things the Trucker cannot, but the reverse is not true.

ColonelSanders

Thanks for the info.

I am leaning more and more to the Troll, it's versatility is mind blowing.

It will still be a good few months before I begin the project, but as it will be a slow build, I'll start a thread and @ (mention) your name in the thread to alert you that I've begun the project, so any feedback/advice you have will be gratefully accepted.

Whether I get a Troll or LHT frame, I will primarily be using the built up bike as a commuter, grocery getter and back up bike, more so than a touring bike, but my groceries will at time weigh more than many people's touring gear.

What I don't quite understand about the heavy comment about the LHT, is that its frame and fork are either no heavier or is actually lighter than the Troll's.

Do you have any particular thoughts about the gusseting and bracing on the Troll?

To me it makes me think the frame must be near indestructible and that does appeal to me a lot.

ColonelSanders

Thank you for taking the time to write out such a comprehensive response.

As I have mentioned to a few of the guys who responded, I am leaning more to the Troll, especially with the look of the new Troll. The versatility of that frame and fork is incredible, it will truly make it a frame I can use for a lifetime.

Just some random thoughts on my part now, to better help you understand where I am coming from:

• I won't be doing the build for probably 6 months
• It will be a flat bar handlebar build
• It will be with rim brakes, hence why I was also looking at the LHT
• I'll be using the bike as a commuter, grocery getter and back up bike, rather than a tourer.
• I'm thinking of using two sets of Monkey Nuts on the Troll to extend the chainstay length from 425 to 445mm.
• I've already purchased 2" Marathon Mondial tyres, so at least this way I can compare to my Giant Toughroad SLR 2 which also has 2" Marathon Mondial tyres, albeit those of the 29'er variety.
• I am a Super Clyde, so I like wider tyres and strong bikes

Do you have any thoughts in particular about the bracing and gusseting on the Troll and how that fits into the picture in any comparison vs the LHT?

DropBarFan

I use my Disc Trucker for groceries too, seems to handle the weight well. Handling can be subjective, the "slowness" doesn't bother me. For instance it's easy enough to thread through tight downtown traffic. But front geometry causes downhill handling to have a less confident feel than sportier bikes. Last week I did a test & went hot into a downhill sharp curve: first it takes significant body english to corner sharp & it still starts to wash out--& then it even started to shimmy a bit so I ended up going over center line a bit. OTOH the LHT/DT built for comfort, not speed. I'd like to see a Trucker with suspension fork--would be comfier & better-handling.

djb

your welcome, no problem.
As for thoughts on the bracing etc, I have no clue. I only weigh 135 soaking wet, and maybe carried 55lbs or so MAX of stuff, so all that adds up to a somewhat average bigish guy, so in other words, I dont stress a frame that much.

given your intended use, two monkey nuts can possibly have issues with how well the rd works, I think I read that somewhere, but not 100% sure. I have 1 set on the bike.

To put things in perspective, my recent riding partner who weighs probably twice my weight, and was carrying probably another 20 or 30lbs more than me, rides a Trek 4500 mountain bike, and with the proper wheelset, has been working great carrying a hell of a lot more than my bike does--and its aluminum--so to say that for your intended use, perhaps other options would be perfectly fine also.

Going from his situation, it seems to me that a really robust wheelset is more important than the frame material.

Have fun researching stuff.

gorob23

I have the LHT. I stayed away from Disc just because if I was out on the road I figured les hassle if they have a problem.(I also stayed with the end bars even though I didn't like them at first. I got used to them really fast and never had an issue) . Get a bike and go riding.

biketocamp

My rig for Kokopelli Trail Oct 2016.

revcp 

O e this guide I would recommend is one Surly Tuggnut I stead of two sets of monkey nuts. I put v2 monkey nuts on my wife's Troll and v1 on mine, but for getting the wheel farther back in the dropouts one Tuggnut makes more sense than two monkey nuts, it's more versatile and it's less expensive.

ColonelSanders

Thanks for that suggestion, I forgot about the Tuggnut.

ColonelSanders

Yeah I think I have read that about the rd too and I will ask my bike mechanic who will be putting it together for me, his thoughts before I commit.

Dega1979

I'm a Disc Trucker pilot. Looked around for awhile to replace my Fufi Touring series III.

nickw

+1, maybe it's an Oregon thing, but I don't find Canti's to be any less capable than discs. Any of my close calls, almost wrecks, sketchy situations were generally rider error, nothing I could or would blame on brakes.

I've seen a lot of people crash grabbing a handful of brake and washing out their front wheel, or skidding their back and swapping out, don't recall what brakes they had....but point is, to much brake is not necessarily a good thing.

I'm obviously in the minority, but I actually prefer canti's, I just like the way they feel and like the aesthetics of them, weird. Raced cross on em, MTBed on em, toured on em, commuted on em. They are fine for it all. I still use em on my commuting and touring bike.

hermanchauw

Just get the disc frame. You could go either v or disc with it.

I live in an area where there is undulating terrain. When i rode v (comma) (sorry my comma button is not working) i was happy with it in the dry but disappointed in the wet. Then i rode mechanical disc and i was happy with it wet and dry (comma) but hate the almost constant adjustment i had to make. Now i am riding hydraulic disc and i am happy with it wet and dry.

fietsbob

I have 2 bikes with fittings for both, My Koga WTR, came with Magura Hydraulic rim brakes,

I see no reason to replace them 4 years later, .... they mount on V/cantilever posts.

Likewise the Mtn BB7 mechanical Disc brakes on my Bike Friday pocket Llama, they're fine too..

a good thing is the lack of rim wear, using disc brakes.. in wet weather ..

but good Kool Stop Rim Pads are, as advertized, rim friendly.


[Trek 520, is likewise offered in either rim/V brake & a 520 D for Disc]



...

DropBarFan

Current mechanical BB7 has lower lever effort than old Shimano cantis but is still not effortless on steep descents. In hindsight hydraulic brakes seem like the sensible first choice--less effort helps a lot on longer tougher rides. Hydro allows later braking so is a bit faster too.