cyccommute 

However, most people still don't know that steel bikes are made of thin steel Most people who ride steel frames think that the frames are made of pipe and have not a clue about what is involved. Without that knowledge, just any old welder is likely to make more of a mess of the repair than fixing it. Forewarned is forearmed.

On the other hand, aluminum is just as easy to repair and could probably be repaired at the same shops that could repair steel. Most weld shops can do more than just weld one kind of metal.

You are taking my point about the "village smithy" the wrong way. I'm not questioning the abilities of people who can weld up farm equipment. I'm not even questioning the abilities of the idyllic "village smithy"...except to say that they may be good at welding farm equipment and shoeing horses but they need information about what they are welding before they start or they could just cock up the job. Perhaps you go into things in your life without any foreknowledge but most people would like even a little bit of information before they start doing something they may never have done before...bull in a china shop and all that.

As for the "village smithy", I bring it up because that's the picture people have in their heads. There aren't too many "smithys" making horse shoes at a coal fired forge anymore but the image persists.

You are letting your experiences in China color the way you think of the world. There aren't too many "steel tubing supply" stores in the US. They certainly aren't on every corner. If you search "steel tubing supply" in Missouri, there's a lot of piping and plumbing tubing results but nothing like bicycle tubing supply. There are some bicycle frame shops around Missouri but they could repair an aluminum frame just as easily as they could a steel frame.

My point is that there is no need to go with a steel bicycle "because it can be repaired in the field" anymore than there a bicycle tourist should avoid aluminum because "it can't be repaired and it will shatter like glass". Both are fallacies.

cyccommute 

Nope. Same reality but we just look at it differently. I'll agree that there has been a slight resurgence of steel bikes in the last (very) few years...less than 5. But I suspect that is going to be very fleeting. Once the cyclical fad of bike packing and touring passes...and it will...the number of steel bikes will fall back to the same very low level it has been at since around 1995.

That's not to say that there will be sudden uptick in aluminum touring bikes, however. Bicycle tourist are too wrapped up in the mythology of steel to ever accept aluminum as a frame material for touring. It's a pity too. It's not as bad a frame as many people think...as evidenced by 20+ years of mountain bikes.

mstateglfr 

Good lord, this just isnt true. Look at all the Cdale touring bikes sold over the last 35 years. All aluminum.
My brother in law has a Cdale touring bike from '98 or so. Its a beautifully made bike and is spec'd very well. The finish is top notch.
I would absolutely ride one if I needed a touring bike and happened upon one of those in my size. Wouldnt think twice. The only downside is i think it maxes out at 32mm for tire size due to the chainstays...but that wouldnt be a deal breaker for how I would use the bike.

As discussed before, I wouldnt touch a Cdale touring bike now. Terrible cost for value, in my eyes. Really unfortunate.

Point is- I think people would buy aluminum frame touring bikes if they were offered more often. Europe has a good number of aluminum frame touring bikes year after year.

u235

Back in the day, a neighbor offered to fix my cracked $800 Profile racing BMX frame. He had a large garage with various race cars, motorcycles and project going on, almost a full blown fab shop. Touched my frame and in a split second blew a dime sized hole in it. He eventually fixed it but it did not last very long. I was already out $800 bucks and couldn't race it anymore anyway but...

noglider 

How important is it to get a repair in the field, so to speak? I'm sure frames break while people are out on the tour, but I'm also fairly sure it doesn't happen often. One alternative to a repair is a bike or frame replacement. If my frame broke and I was on a big trip, I would consider one of those things, but of course, I would need to have the money on hand.

jefnvk

As one who has actually welded before, I don't doubt it one bit. Really easy to blow a hole in thin metal if you aren't expecting it. Or, if your classmates decide to jack your amps up to about 300 when you aren't looking

That's not to say a competent person not hanging around bored teen pranksters who knows a bit can't fix it, but I'm not just letting any village smitty touch it unless they know what they are doing, or I simply have no other choice.

manapua_man

If I had to use only one bike for everything, I'd probably put drop bars and slicks on my paratrooper and call it a day.

saddlesores

man, this is just surreal.

i shows ya steel tubing that's been welded by local labor.
i shows ya potentially many tens of thousands of skilled welders.
i shows ya skilled welders can be found amongst the rice paddies.
i shows ya availability in countries that include at least 2/3 of the world's population.
i shows ya tubing supply shops.
a few posters shares with ya their frame repair experiences conus and oconus.
i shows ya my frame repair in the us of a.
other posters inform us of various frame builders in the us.
i shows ya names and locations of tubing supply in the usa.

*a quick google turns up shapiro metal supply in st louis, and wicks aircraft & motorsport
in highland, IL both with thin wall 4130.

"This chromium-molybdenum alloy is one of the most widely used aircraft steels because of its combination of weldability, ease of fabrication and mild hardenability. MIL-T-6736. We stock both Chinese and American/German. AG signifies American/German. Without the AG signifies Chinese. Need an American/German size that is not listed, please give us a call. "


enough of this, it's like debating metallurgy with wendy wright.


.........your golden crocoduck is in the mail.

Rowan

Goodness! The third-to-last brazing job I had done on a bicycle was putting a pair of V-brake mounts on the chainstays of an old tandem I had acquired. The job was done by a plumber acquaintance; plumbers do a lot of braze welding in their everyday lives.

Certainly if I had a repair to do, and there weren't frame builders around, or I couldn't do it myself, I'd seek out a plumber -- despite the preponderance of plastic in the industry, there is still a deal of metalwork being done, and plumbers have good welding equipment, including brazing tips.

My second-to-last was a job I did myself with the welding equipment at my then-workplace -- brazing back together a broken drive-side rear drop-out on my Fuji Touring. The last one was fabricating an upper link for attaching a rear triangle to an MTB frame to make a long bike.

In all cases... steel was the base material. I could not imagine doing any of the work on an aluminium frame, except maybe bodging around with epoxy.

southpier

i'm pretty satisfied with mine, too

Squeezebox

I'm thinking that it might be more likely to win the big lottery, than to break a weld in a bicycle frame and need it repaired. There's no reason to buy 1 frame vs another for it's supposedly repairability.
If you had a frame and a weld broke, and you had it repaired, would you trust the rest of the welds?

southpier

I was watching a video (from New Zealand I think) about a company that made reproduction WWI aeroplanes. there was a definite reluctance to re-engineer any part, even the "weak links", because to do so would send the offending stresses down the line to another - albeit unpredictable- part of the plane. they were using original plans and adhering to original construction methods & materials.

I guess that's just some supplemental information to toss out . . . .

mstateglfr 

Using your analogy, I should trust the rest of the welds since breaking one is less likely than winning the big lottery. So since 1 weld already broke, what would the odds be of another breaking?...again- less than winning the big lottery.

shipwreck

I have now actually choked on something I was drinking while reading something on the computer. Wonder if anyone has ever had this happen before, or if this is the first actual event like it? From the Buckle of the B belt I salute you.

Squeezebox

If your frame was welded so badly that a weld broke wouldn't you be worried about the other welds?
Luckily it doesn't happen, even rarely, so it's really not an issue of concern. Pretty much only theoretical really.
But why does it seem to be the LHT owners in particular who are worried about their frames suddenly falling apart?
Shapiro steel in St. Louis does not sell bicycle sized tubing. The only frame builder that I know of lost the right to use his torch. Insurance company or such I guess.

mstateglfr 

It was your analogy, I simply used it to respond to your hypothetical.

As for LHT owners being the ones most concerned about frame failure- perhaps that is your skewed view.

Piratebike

Well my post made it to 5 pages even if 4 1/2 of those have nothing to do with my original post.

Doug64

Actually, the times I'm touring in places I do not want my frame to fall apart, are the times I use my LHT

BigAura

My purpose-built touring bike is only used for loaded-touring backcountry-adventures. My favorite everyday-ride is steel though, but not as over-built. That said, I did tour on it (my steel-fixed-gear) last summer. Personally I kinda like heading off onto gravel & down forest roads, not interested in mountain-single-track but rough roads that go somewhere are in my realm. My carbon racer and even my former aluminum-cross-bike aren't optimized for my current interest. It's great to have choices but in-reality any-bike would do...if that's all I had.

DropBarFan

Fair enough, as to having one all-purpose bike--a lot rides on (heh) how much theft risk can be tolerated. Trek 520 is not a cheap bike new & used frames go for decent prices also. If commuting/shopping/errands involve locking bike in a dodgy area, I'd probably go with an old steel MTB frame & EBay components. Cheap, sturdy & comfy & the common style less likely to attract the more sophisticated bike thieves.

saddlesores

i've come across 7 broken frames in the past five years. all aluminium.
mine got longitudinal cracks in the chain stays.
the rest were other cycle tourists out touring in laos and cambodia.
i personally witnessed three of them. all were broken welds where
the top tube joined the seat tube. one guy was still riding, with a long
piece of (inferior) steel wire holding his frame together.

the other three? met other cycle tourists, also out touring, asking me
if i knew of any bike shops. wanting to help the poor alu-rider back in
brokebike, laos desperately searching for a bike or frame...
anything really so they could continue the actual cycle tour they
were on, where they had already spent so much money and energy on.

sorry, no. don't recall one in the capital, but there was one boutique
shop next to the cathedral in savannaket, behind the chinese temple.
mostly bits and pieces for the local riding club. no complete bikes or
frames. ooh, i did find an LHT frame in northern bangkok last year.
medium size for about $500.

my theory is that alu bikes tend to be made (cheaply) with sloping
toptubes. that makes for a much longer exposed seatpost, which
functions as a much longer lever. and with a long enough lever, on
rough roads, a weld maybe can separate. too bad it's not steel.
steel could be repaired.

steel touring bikes (methinks) are still more traditionally styled
with a relatively level top tube. much less force applied to a stronger
weld in stronger (more attactive) material.

what do the alu guys do with no repair possible? they try to find
a replacement.....in the land of $50 huffy's....all sized for children.
so much for their dream tour.

sad.

they could have been riding repairable steel.
they could have gone to shapiro supply in st. louis.
sam, over at their depot on spring street, could fix 'em right up!
they have in stock, right now, and ready to move:
1-1/8" 4130 cromoly in 18 thicknesses, in lengths up to 24',
and 25 thicknesses of 1" seamless tubing.
pick up the phone, give 'em a call!
operators are standing by now!

https://www.shapirosupply.com/4130-c...d-tube?cat=402

Rowan

I'm sorry, but remind me again how much touring you have done.

The breakage on my Fuji Touring's reaer drop out was the result of the bike being blown over in a gust of wind and landing on the acorn nut. At least, that's what I surmise. I rode a 400km randonnee with it like that, because I wasn't aware of the breakage. The QR skewer, the rear axle and the rear rack kept it altogether, and it was only after I got home and tried to take the rear wheel off that the drop out fell out (I did have some shifting issues with brand new cassette and chain on that ride, but couldn't my finger on the issue).

It's not the welds that could break (although there is potential). It can be a host of other things, including the drive-side chainstay, the seat stay, the seat tube...

There is one other little factor. The steel touring bikes I have -- the Fuji Touring and the Thorn Club Tour -- both have drive-side drop-outs that incorporate the derailleur hanger. If the hanger happens to be bent, it can usually be bent back again, several times, without breaking. It does depend on whether the dropout is cast or forged, of course.

Break the hanger on an aluminium frame, and you might be carrying one to replace it, as those frames usually have them separete. However, if the locating point on the drop-out is bent, good luck bending it back more than once.

The thing is, people are free to choose whatever they want to ride. I addressed the OPs question earlier in this thread. My Fuji Touring has done more than 60,000km (in fact, in miles, it's done 40,000 miles). It's steel, it's repairable, and it's still viable as a do-all bike for me to ride if I so choose.

Really Squeezebox, the constant sniping about the LHT has to stop. Your experience is based on a single test ride, as far as I can ascertain. Others have many, many thousands of miles of happy riding. I don't care what you think, but your constant disruption of many threads with your baiting has become very, very tiresome.

GamblerGORD53

I second saddlesores views. Very few of these metalwork guys lack brazing SKILL, besides welding. They do fix bikes, motorcycles and all kinds of window bars, etc. My steel fork broke 3 times and was fixed 3 times for a grand total of $11. Not pretty, but it got me moving. Fast service also.

My seat tube and BB is wrapped in CF. It Ain't breaking, 120 lb bike and all.
There are NO AL custom bike makers.

noglider 

@DropBarFan makes a good point about theft risk.

A few years ago, I picked a 1971 Raleigh Super Course out of the trash. It was missing a rear wheel but was otherwise fine. I've since replaced everything on it, some things a few times. The paint is a wreck. The bike rides as well as my other (too many) bikes. Sometimes, I think I ought to make it look nicer. But I haven't, and I ride the bike a fair bit. In a sense, it's my best bike, because it rides well and has a low theft risk.

DropBarFan

Locally I met a guy riding a 70's lower-end Falcon sport-touring bike that he used for long-distance tours in China etc in addition to local riding. No fancy stuff, even rear rack was old Pletscher IIRC.