I've got dry bags and Ortliebs and Nashbar waterproof, I don't see any real weight savings between them. If anything, the dry bag may be a bit heavier. Material is about the same on both, and the utility of the mounting system on panniers outweighs (no pun intended) having to strap down bags.

My e-vent dry bags are way lighter than my ortliebs. I use one to strap a sleeping bag to my handlebars now and strap the tent to the rear rack deck, velcro is my new duct tape. I'd like to CL the ortliebs and use the kids e-vents to save on storage space though CL will have to wait until he gets off the Appalachian trail.

JR listen to Gerry he is speaking the truth, the only thing he failed to mention is that Arkel has a Great if not the best cam-lock hook system on the market. I know people that have bought different panniers for whatever misguided reason (the best reason I heard was "because Arkel doesn't make blue bags.") and yet still use Arkel cam-locks to hang the bags on their bike. I also line each pannier with Sea-to-Summit waterproof backpack liner. Two years ago their bags flared out at the top allowing super easy access into the pannier and the contents. Their updated sets don't flare but still work well. When it is pissing down hard I snap Sea-to-summit Ultra-Sil pack covers over the outside, they only weigh a whisper. Hint: Don't try to find x-small in Red I got the last of the run, in fact, the last one I found came from England. I like dry socks in the morning. By the time these wear out someone should be making them in Dyneema finally.

The pic. below shows the front panniers with covers on.

https://www.arkel-od.com/en/cam-lock-hook-kit.html
Ultra-Sil® Pack Liner | Sea to Summit
Ultra-Sil® Pack Cover | Sea to Summit

Waterproof panniers, without the need for an inner waterproof layer and rain covers. It seems a shame to have to line a set of panniers that are already overly heavy with a waterproof barrier, and then add rain covers to protect them. Have you ever used any other mounting systems other than Arkel? Have you ever toured in the rain?

http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/y...DayWeekend.jpg

I'm a fan of the Arkel Dry-Lites. Hard to find anything more lightweight. They are waterproof and super simple to take on and off. I've been very pleased with them.

Did a little video review of them here:
Cpt. Bob

^^^ yea Arkel wanted a slice of the marketplace dominated by Ortlieb,
there are Carradry bags that are similarly seam welded.

and some others too, without the better mounting hardware.



Sierra Trading Post , is a reseller of overstocks and close outs.. so a good place to check..

I got some Ortlieb stuff from them.

Wayne at the touring store is a good source, + REI.

Sewn bags leak because of the way they're put together,

Your wet things stuffed anywhere won't dry, (Because the surface area is restricted from evaporating the moisturde)

Better to leave them flapping in the breeze or loosely placed in a mesh bag..






....

Ive taken to just packing my clothes and sleeping bag in lightweight drybags and putting those in whatever system I'm using.

Kinda leaning towards a Carradice longflap camper in the future.

My Trek 920 is opposite. Handles well with stuff on the rear rack. Sounds like it depends on the bicycle.

sorry, I disagree, ;) even with a non low trail fork any bike behaves uphill far better with front load. i toured for many years with only back load and and since some years i tour with only front load. with bikes prepared for back load and with low trail fork bikes.... any bike with back load makes your frame wobble left-right-left-right when climbing out of the saddle, also the energy and impact on the back wheel is very high. with front load a touring bike behaves just like a normal road bike, no back panniers doing their impact on ride quality. yes, steering with a non low trail fork is a bit of work. and with a low trail fork steering is super easy, a dream. one controls the bike, not the bike controls the rider.

I have not had any problems with reasonable loads on the back rack. I usually feel in control, and this is my CX bike.
http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/y...s/Waterloo.jpg

Doug I can do that ....;)

there is no problem if one likes wobble left right left right when climbing out of the saddle, any bike behaves then like a pudding. and you know that, anybody who went out of the saddle with back load knows that ...

I'm partial to Lone Peak myself, I've used a handful of different ones over the years. Made in the US, not overbuilt IMO like some of the others and hit a good price point.

Lone Peak Panniers and Packs Home ? TheTouringStore.com

The Backroller classics are currently $126 @ biketiresdirect with $6 store credit for future purchases. Good deal/

I have used cheap panniers from Performance Cycle and they are absolutely fine except the attachment system is not as simple or convenient as better quality panniers. The only experience I have with Arkel is my handlebar bag which is very well made. Arkel panniers seem pretty expensive and they are not waterproof which is fine with most folks. If you are planning on touring frequently and are willing to invest in high quality panniers that are waterproof, Ortlieb seems to be the sweet spot with a lot of experienced tourists, including me. They bags are made of extremely durable material although I have had buckles break on ocassion but I purchased exact replacement buckles from amazon 10 - 1" Duraflex Stealth Plastic Buckles. Since ortliebs don't have pockets or divided space, I use individual stuff sacks to organize my stuff- no big deal. Obviously, you don't want to put wet stuff in any pannier, waterproof or not, for long term storage. Strap it to the outside so it can dry in the sun.

We both have Akrel Dry Lites. They're amazingly light and waterproof. I rode last week in a downpour with my laptop in one and no issues.

I conducted a very crude experiment today. We were going to make a grocery run, so instead of taking our trailer, I put my Ortlieb Backrollers on my bike (Bianchi Volpe, Tubus Classic Cargo rack). There is a short steep (75 m/ 9%) hill between our home and the grocery store. On the ride home I had about 40-45 lbs. (18-20 kg., bathroom scale) of groceries in the panniers. I would have had more weight, if I had room for the watermelon I was considering:)

I started up the hill in one lower gear than I usually use to climb it unloaded. I started to slow down and got out of the saddle to maintain my speed. My bike did not wobble at all. I realize this is a short hill, and it may not have been the best place to try to induce a wobble, but It felt pretty solid. It might be the bike, too low of a gear, or I was not aggressive enough. I would get the wobble you describe when I used a lightweight competition bike with a 531 Reynolds 62 cm frame. It was just a “whippy” bike.

It might also make a difference if there was some weight higher on top of the rack. I don't usually ride with just rear panniers. I use front and rear panniers with about 40 lbs. of bags and gear. I also don’t get out of the saddle very often on hills; my gearing allows me to spin comfortably up most hills without standing.

Doug ;)

yes the higher the weight the more impact.

but in general, its physics, put 20kg or more in the back, move that stuff left right, the leverage makes the frame moving.