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I'm Neutral about Carbon

Old 05-18-17, 04:31 PM
  #51  
manapua_man
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Originally Posted by Mose
You know, compared to any miles you can ride instead of driving, arguing over the eco-friendliness of various frame materials really is marginal gains, IMO.

That's pretty much how I see it. There are way bigger gains to be made elsewhere.
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Old 05-18-17, 04:48 PM
  #52  
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The last thing we need is another politically correct everything you do leaves a carbon footprint so we all need to live in mudhuts or reduce the human population by 90 percent thread.

The same clowns preaching this nonsense are all driving and flying to political marches, posting on social media using their disposable computers and phones and otherwise acting in the most hypocritical fashion possible.

Don't like carbon footprints? Stop trolling on the computer to start. And don't ride a bike. That chain lube surely is as destructive as a fukushima meltdown. Those rubber tires are the end of the amazon forest for sure.
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Old 05-18-17, 05:28 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet
I'm not really interested in the eco fight that much, just pointing out that recycling a bike creates less of a footprint than buying new carbon - if that actually matters to anyone IRL. But your reply doesn't tell us why that's wrong. It's a one word answer followed by a tangent about the quality of the bike which isn't being debated.

Yet that does bring up the uncomfortable fact that 26 years from now the 2017 carbon bike will be considered old junk so there's no use thinking this old junk is any better than that old junk. Perhaps I have less trouble understanding that because I have access to time travel technology though.



Ps. 1991 mtbs did not come with stem shifters. If you're going for the slam at least get the story straight

Pss. 26 years from now IGH's are remembered as a quaint but misguided idea, like handlebar tassles. Magnets are the new thing.. but not yet.


Yeah, you social justice warriors don't lie very well.
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Old 05-18-17, 05:49 PM
  #54  
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Dude. I'm not making the eco argument here. Just pointing out that trying to claim new carbon is an eco friendly choice is pretty weak compared to other options. Didn't know that qualified as social justice warrior status. Just thought it was plain ol common sense.

If someone wants to buy a carbon frame fill yer boots I say. Why not. Just don't claim it's to save the world from evil steel.

It's pretty funny that a guy on a discussion forum who engages in name calling (social justice warrior) and accuses someone of lying also tries to play the troll card in the post directly above. This ain't Texas Holdem.. you don't have to go all in on the first bet.

Last edited by Happy Feet; 05-18-17 at 07:09 PM.
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Old 05-18-17, 07:26 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by jamawani
But, but, but, but ...
Aren't you worried about burning in hell for eternity?
no, not really.

back in cath'lic school, a nun told me my (disembodied?) lips
would burn in hell for 5 minutes for each cigarette i smoked.

logically, if you extend the penalty for sins committed in
college, all the good parts will be burning for eternity anyway.

i can't imagine a pancreas, an appendix and a single earlobe
(earrings were sinful, too!) enjoying paradise (with or without
virgins) all by themselfs.
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Old 05-18-17, 07:52 PM
  #56  
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Oh yeah, whining about eco choices when you have a silver one, black one, maroon one, etc. So you have at least six bikes and preaching about making the right eco choice.
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Old 05-18-17, 08:09 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by BigAura
My steel frame is 40+ years-old. I rode it yesterday. In the extreme unlikely-hood that becomes unusable as a bicycle I throw it in the recycle bin.

It's hard for me believe that current carbon-frames will be ridden 40 years from now. The the landfill is where they'll end up
I've seen several specialized carbon fiber lugged frames on the road this past week. This design dates back at least 27 years.

Most bikes of any value are handed down from generation to generation even if they aren't ridden very much. Or, they can fetch a pretty penny used. Look at all of the vintage fanatics on the forum. Or take a look at CL prices esp. in some of the bigger cities.

BTW, not all products that go into a recycling bin actually get recycled.
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Old 05-18-17, 08:28 PM
  #58  
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Social justice warrior, lying, whining... really is that all you've got?

The discussion on this discussion forum (in case you missed it) was that a member was trying to make the case that carbon was a better environmental choice than steel or aluminum. I countered that material choice isn't very meaningful overall compared to other, accepted strategies like reusing or recycling. That's it.

Yeah, I own some bikes, so what? I would always argue that material choice (or number of bikes) is not as important as behavior in the eco realm. I reuse and recycle when I can and I park the car and ride those bikes to work 5 days a week and I spend many of my weekends and holidays on those bikes. Actions, not shopping choices. Sorry if that offends your delicate sensibilities.

Again, responding to a discussion in a discussion forum: You can ether agree or disagree and are welcome to try to intelligently counter with your ideas (if you have any). But to just call someone names like you're butt hurt about something makes you look like the troll you tried to point the finger at earlier.

Last edited by Happy Feet; 05-18-17 at 08:37 PM.
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Old 05-18-17, 08:35 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by speshelite
I've seen several specialized carbon fiber lugged frames on the road this past week. This design dates back at least 27 years.

Most bikes of any value are handed down from generation to generation even if they aren't ridden very much. Or, they can fetch a pretty penny used. Look at all of the vintage fanatics on the forum. Or take a look at CL prices esp. in some of the bigger cities.

BTW, not all products that go into a recycling bin actually get recycled.
Steel is recycled and rather economical vs mining fresh ore. Steel has very high rate of being recycled.
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Old 05-18-17, 08:51 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by saddlesores
no, not really.
Hmmmmmm, I guess it looks a little warm for me, too.
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Old 05-18-17, 08:55 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by speshelite
I've seen several specialized carbon fiber lugged frames on the road this past week. This design dates back at least 27 years.
I've heard some horror stories about some of them. I claim no personal expertise but from a recent thread on the C&V forum concerning old carbon fiber lugged frames.

Last edited by BigAura; 05-18-17 at 08:59 PM.
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Old 05-18-17, 09:30 PM
  #62  
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Yes, recycle by all means, if you want a steel frame there are plenty available. It might be risky to use an older Carbon frame, as they used to have some problems. For carbon I would look for a frame under four years old.
Bicycle technology will continue to evolve, but maybe it should evolve in a carbon direction. New bicycle will continue to be manufactured but new ones should be carbon or bamboo. Not metal.

So is it better for the planet, to recycle an old steel or alu frame, or to buy a new carbon fiber frame?

Last edited by willibrord; 05-19-17 at 08:47 AM. Reason: clarity
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Old 05-18-17, 09:46 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by alan s
Until you get a flat tire.
It's cool just get Specialized's new Airless tires. It is a great idea because air gives you a nice lively ride whereas a chunk of solid rubber (or plastics or whatever they use) gives you a nice dead ride which is what you want. You put those on a nice cheap aluminum frame and you have one great ride that you can really feel.
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Old 05-18-17, 09:54 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by BigAura
I've heard some horror stories about some of them. I claim no personal expertise but from a recent thread on the C&V forum concerning old carbon fiber lugged frames.
You should actually read the thread then. The problem frame is an Alan, not a specialized. Posts 18-23 claim the bonded carbon specialized had a superior design for most of it's design life.

At the time I saw those first designs, I too, wondered how long these carbon frames would last. Well, here we are, 25+ years later, and the early bonded CF designs are still on the road.

I think it's not only fine, but important to have these reservations, and third to insist upon standardized testing procedures before these new bike designs make it to the road. There are simply no regulations and these are supposed to be road worthy designs competent to travel at speeds of 50+ mph for decades on end.

But no one really knows how long steel or carbon or ti lasts. The few objective studies which exist are simply ignored. Most enthusiasts can't be bothered with the facts. They like their toys and can't be bothered with science.
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Old 05-18-17, 10:00 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by willibrord
... So is it better for the planet, to recycle an old steel or alu frame, or to buy a new carbon frame?
As a straight up question I would say the former. The footprint is already made. Downstream, if you reuse it for your purpose that's basically a net zero input on your part. If it gets recycled into something else it will create a new footprint down the road. Even if you buy new carbon, that is still a footprint of some sort you have created for your purpose.

The used bike may have created a footprint originally but by using it again you could argue you are halving that footprint overall.
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Old 05-18-17, 10:06 PM
  #66  
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This is like arguing whether adding one vs two granules of dirt to a swimming pool with 100,000 gallons of water makes it unfit for swimming.

In comparison, planes, trains and automobiles turn the pool pitch black.

Bikes have a piddling impact on the environment in comparison.

Next on the agenda for eco warriors: should hikers be charged with a felony for farting during a hike? Dat dangerous methane, yo.
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Old 05-18-17, 10:12 PM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by Trakhak
Cheap frames, whether aluminum or steel, will last practically forever. High-end steel and aluminum racing frame ...

The takeaway from that report is ...

Make of that what you will.
the takeaway for me? as they stated in their conclusion, it was " an issue not of materials,
but of the design and construction effort".

problem is manufacturers trying too hard to shed weight, using too thin tubing
for the purpose.

would love to see this test run on an LHT frame and a $99 wallyworld special.

........or maybe hire these (retired) veterans to do a real world loaded
unsupported test:







they're still out there.....
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
Picture 041.jpg (99.9 KB, 25 views)

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Old 05-18-17, 10:17 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet
As a straight up question I would say the former. The footprint is already made. Downstream, if you reuse it for your purpose that's basically a net zero input on your part. If it gets recycled into something else it will create a new footprint down the road. Even if you buy new carbon, that is still a footprint of some sort you have created for your purpose.

The used bike may have created a footprint originally but by using it again you could argue you are halving that footprint overall.
Hey look: New York Cty's underwater! Cuz, Al Gore said so!
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Old 05-18-17, 10:20 PM
  #69  
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Hey, just a thought, did the Viet Cong use bamboo frames at all?
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Old 05-18-17, 10:30 PM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by willibrord
Hey, just a thought, did the Viet Cong use bamboo frames at all?
not that i am aware of. saw several setups in dioramas in museums in
saigan and hanoi, as well as millions of the same bike(s) still in use.

they were very creative...



nor did i know of them using calcium bikes. they did however,
use some carbon (based) transport...

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Old 05-18-17, 10:41 PM
  #71  
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I saw some viet made bamboo bikes online, I wondered if that was where the concept originated.
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Old 05-18-17, 10:55 PM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by speshelite
Hey look: New York Cty's underwater! Cuz, Al Gore said so!
You really have a knack for making sarcastic comments that add little substance to a discussion. How awesome.

If you find the subject beneath your lofty contempt you can always go to the next thread.




Will,
It's like single use coffee cups. You can argue which material leaves less of a footprint but if you really want to make gains you switch from single use to reusable. Even if the initial footprint is higher the repeated use of that same footprint reduces it's impact far more than the marginal reductions of various single use materials.

Last edited by Happy Feet; 05-18-17 at 10:58 PM.
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Old 05-18-17, 11:07 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by speshelite
Hey look: New York Cty's underwater! Cuz, Al Gore said so!
Please try to stay away from the overt, petty, and off topic political comments.
I saw another thread you managed to get locked because you started ranting about a socially political issue which had nothing to do with the topic.
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Old 05-18-17, 11:11 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet

Will,
It's like single use coffee cups. You can argue which material leaves less of a footprint but if you really want to make gains you switch from single use to reusable. Even if the initial footprint is higher the repeated use of that same footprint reduces it's impact far more than the marginal reductions of various single use materials.
I get your point. I just think all new bikes going forward should be carbon or bamboo.
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Old 05-18-17, 11:21 PM
  #75  
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Speaking of carbon - - -

On my tour to the end of the road in the Northwest Territories -
I was constantly surrounded by a swarm of hundreds of biting black flies and green flies.
I made sure that I had a double shirt and head net, and kept a hand free to swing a bandana.
Eventually, I just got used to the swarm of flies. There is no escaping them.
Because they sense and follow CO2 trails from animals - humans among them.

I found it humorous that people getting out of cars were swarmed even worse.
They would shriek and run for cover. They even stole most of my swarm.
Because cars exhale far more CO2 than mere humans.
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