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Lyme disease & touring

Old 06-21-17, 10:29 AM
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Lyme spread in NC

Originally Posted by ironwood
Were they the deer ticks that carry Lyme? I have found deer ticks on my clothing on a warm winter day even though there was snow on the ground.

As to the OP's idea that global warming has caused lyme disease to move South to NC, I'm puzzled. It makes sense to blame global warming for the northward progress of Lyme from Southern NE to northern NE and Canada, but NC has always been warmer than NE.

Maybe it's the deer.

Good Qn about how much of the spread into NC is attributable to the deer vs. climate change. Maybe some of that is the deer. However, the animated map here
https://www.statnews.com/2016/07/01/...limate-change/
suggests the NC counties most affected are along the Atlantic coast & in the Piedmont, & the same article mentions New England & the Midwest US as the places where deer are much more numerous now. No mention of NC in that respect.
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Old 06-21-17, 10:37 AM
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areas of highest risk

Originally Posted by FBinNY
...However, it's not time to panic or go crazy with worry. Stay out of high grass, and other places where you can pick up ticks.

Good point, FB. I've read that deer ticks are most numerous at the borders between forests & fields (or areas of cut grass). Unfortunately, those locations have been precisely my favorite places to hammock, so, I am changing my basic camping practices.
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Old 06-21-17, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by axolotl
What does your religion have to do with climate change, Lyme disease, or bike touring? ...


I didn’t mean to offend.

The relation is that,
on this forum, most of us like to bicycle camp,
camping puts many of us at risk of lyme,
lyme is a much greater danger than it was 25 years ago,
the danger seems to have increased in some geographical areas partly due to climate change (see Post 16 above),
the present climate change is almost certainly due to human activities,
we can mitigate some of those effects by how we vote & by our lifestyle choices,
AND FINALLY, people like me are changing our voting & our lifestyles accordingly. For instance, we had a big presence at the People’s Climate March in Washington DC on 29 April.

If you want to discuss, plz send me a private message, as not everybody might be interested.

Last edited by hartlean; 06-21-17 at 11:17 AM. Reason: added reference to Post 16
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Old 06-21-17, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
Sorry to hear about your wife, and hopefully her knees aren't too bad.

However, this is still a problem. Doctors are slow to acknowledge and properly test for and treat Lyme. I know of a few cases here in NYS, that were comparably mismanaged, despite being in areas known for Lyme at the time.

If you suspect a decent possibility of having Lyme, you need to be assertive with your doctor, especially if you travel because your local doctor may not be considering the possibility.
Her PCP assured my wife that it couldn't be Lyme disease with the statement that "there's no Lyme's in our county." After seeing a number of specialists, finally one (IIRC, it was an infectious disease specialist) did a full battery of tests for a myriad of conditions, mentioning that one was Lyme's. Bingo. Putting the whole thing back together in her mind, my wife recalled a "mosquito bite" on her leg that wasn't itchy from the prior August. We were never outside the county that month and likely never more than 10 miles from home. It never developed a noticeable target appearance. She is positive, however, that was it. She was on doxy for many months. Slowly, her symptoms dissipated, her stamina returned, and the brain fog went away. She got back to being able to ride her bike again, but she'll never be a long distance rider (20 or so miles and that's it). We don't see any impact on her heart.

There's a lot of controversy surrounding the treatment of Lyme. My wife switched care to a doc that kept her on the doxy for much longer than her PCP would ever have done. That spirochete is one tough little son-of-b**** to clear out of your system.
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Old 06-21-17, 11:47 AM
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CDC lists incidents of Lyme disease in terms of population, meaning you can see what percentage of people get Lyme disease, rather than just how many people get it. Helpful because as population increases, naturally the total number of sick people also increases. What I see when I look at the chart is that the percentage of people affected does not seem to be changing.

It's a nasty disease, especially when left untreated. And you can lower your risk with smart clothing choices, bug repellent, and prompt tick removal. So by all means do those things.

But I'm not seeing any data to support the idea that more people are becoming affected for any reason other than the fact that there are more people to bite.
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Old 06-21-17, 12:10 PM
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Can't be bothered with ticks. I live in the Finnish archipelago which is stuffed with the things. I've been vaccinated against the TBE which is far worse of the two tick borne diseases and Lyme is pretty simple to deal with. If a red ring is found -> antibiotics and if there is suspicion of infection without the red ring tests can be done and again antibiotics are used to deal with the disease.

We get a lot of people believing they have lyme's even though the tests come out negative. Usually these people have some other more serious ailment or are mentally unstable. Lyme's can be tested and treated relatively easily.

I heard the above from a friend who is doing her MD-PhD on lyme's.
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Old 06-21-17, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by elcruxio
Can't be bothered with ticks. I live in the Finnish archipelago which is stuffed with the things. I've been vaccinated against the TBE which is far worse of the two tick borne diseases and Lyme is pretty simple to deal with. If a red ring is found -> antibiotics and if there is suspicion of infection without the red ring tests can be done and again antibiotics are used to deal with the disease.

We get a lot of people believing they have lyme's even though the tests come out negative. Usually these people have some other more serious ailment or are mentally unstable. Lyme's can be tested and treated relatively easily.

I heard the above from a friend who is doing her MD-PhD on lyme's.
That's not always true. I have Lyme and there was never a red ring. The longer you are infected w/o being diagnosed/taking doxy, the worse it can get. I have know people that aren't the same 15+ years later. I don't disagree that some cases are addressed early and therefore very treatable or that there are worse tick born illnesses.
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Old 06-21-17, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by hartlean
Thanks, Ironwood, but my understanding is that, while in some countries Doxycycline is available without a doctors prescription, in the US it is available only with a prescription.


Since it's an antibiotic, I can see why a prescription would be needed. Over-use of ABX leads to medication-resistant strains of bugs.
If you are going on a tour and are concerned about ticks and Lyme disease, maybe you should talk to your doctor about a prescription for a prophylactic dose in case you are bitten by a tick. I don't know if he will write one, but it can't hurt to ask. And it might save you from a longer treatment of oxy later.
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Old 06-21-17, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by axolotl
What does your religion have to do with climate change, Lyme disease, or bike touring? Why are you even mentioning your religion in a bike touring forum?
Originally Posted by hartlean

I didn’t mean to offend.

The relation is that,
on this forum, most of us like to bicycle camp,
camping puts many of us at risk of lyme,
lyme is a much greater danger than it was 25 years ago,
the danger seems to have increased in some geographical areas partly due to climate change (see Post 16 above),
the present climate change is almost certainly due to human activities,
we can mitigate some of those effects by how we vote & by our lifestyle choices,
AND FINALLY, people like me are changing our voting & our lifestyles accordingly. For instance, we had a big presence at the People’s Climate March in Washington DC on 29 April.

If you want to discuss, plz send me a private message, as not everybody might be interested.
You completely failed to address why you inserted your religious beliefs into your original post. Furthermore, your religious comments were cut & pasted from your own comment in the "bicycles across Pa." thread, post #13.
https://www.bikeforums.net/touring/11...l#post19667220

You've made comments about your religious beliefs in other threads, as well, including bible references. This is a bike touring forum. Please stop inserting your religion into discussions here.
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Old 06-21-17, 02:53 PM
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Take note to proper test advise .

Originally Posted by FBinNY
Sorry to hear about your wife, and hopefully her knees aren't too bad.

However, this is still a problem. Doctors are slow to acknowledge and properly test for and treat Lyme. I know of a few cases here in NYS, that were comparably mismanaged, despite being in areas known for Lyme at the time.

If you suspect a decent possibility of having Lyme, you need to be assertive with your doctor, especially if you travel because your local doctor may not be considering the possibility.

I've had 3 bouts with Lyme in Pa. I have a dozen friends with Lyme . With mild to unimaginable side effects . Early treatment with antibodies is the only known way to deal with it . The medical community ignored the spread until just recently, using a test that yields results in 2 days along with a 48% error rate .
There is a tier test done, if you (demand it) and find a lab that does it . That yields results in about 10 days that gives correct results . The one we use is in California .
Now scientists are saying the disease is also spread by, misquitos, wasps, spiders etc . They just do not know much about it .
Worry about the automobile baring down from behind and use common sense in the woods and fields .
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Old 06-21-17, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ironwood
If you are going on a tour and are concerned about ticks and Lyme disease, maybe you should talk to your doctor about a prescription for a prophylactic dose in case you are bitten by a tick. I don't know if he will write one, but it can't hurt to ask. And it might save you from a longer treatment of oxy later.
Yes, I'll try that; however, this author
https://www.acep.org/Clinical---Prac...eighs-Benefit/
suggests the doc probably would not write the prescrip. Of course, medical community opinions might vary...
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Old 06-21-17, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Rob_E
...But I'm not seeing any data to support the idea that more people are becoming affected for any reason other than the fact that there are more people to bite.
What sources are you looking at, RobE? Acc to
https://www.cdc.gov/lyme/stats/graphs.html
incidence per 100,000 people in the US has doubled in the past 25 years.
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Old 06-21-17, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by ironwood
If you are going on a tour and are concerned about ticks and Lyme disease, maybe you should talk to your doctor about a prescription for a prophylactic dose in case you are bitten by a tick. I don't know if he will write one, but it can't hurt to ask. And it might save you from a longer treatment of oxy later.
Prophylactic antibiotics is a poor option. Tick bite and subsequent Lyme disease is a relatively low odds event. However overuse of antibiotics is a real problem, and a poor trade off.

Odds are it won't buy you much in the way of prevention or lower doses later, because dosing to treat Lyme is pretty high and no reasonable doctor is going to do that unless necessary.
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Old 06-21-17, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by hartlean
What sources are you looking at, RobE? Acc to
https://www.cdc.gov/lyme/stats/graphs.html
incidence per 100,000 people in the US has doubled in the past 25 years.
I'm not seeing what you're seeing. The graphs show the number of cases total. Not cases adjusted for population growth. There is a table showing population adjusted data for 2005 to 2015. The last row is for the whole US. No real change in 10 years. Same for NC.
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Old 06-21-17, 05:44 PM
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I don't share the same concern for Lyme Disease as the OP but I applaud the OP for acting out of his Christian belief.

Christians believe that God created earth as a gift for mankind. Along with this gift comes the responsibility of stewardship. That is our belief. The OP is acting out of that Christian belief and his conscience should be clear.

Riding in the mountains last month, filtering water from a mountain stream flowing out of a federally protected wilderness and taking in the vistas, I was in awe of what has been created for us and felt very grateful that those in the US and many other countries have been granted the wisdom to care for such a great gift.

I realize that religious conversations get pedantic quickly and that not all agree so this will be my only participation in this thread. I tend toward preaching by example instead of word because it offends less. Offense was not my intent.


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Old 06-21-17, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by hartlean
What sources are you looking at, RobE? Acc to
https://www.cdc.gov/lyme/stats/graphs.html
incidence per 100,000 people in the US has doubled in the past 25 years.

The graph you linked is for the last 20 years, not 25.
And it shows total cases confirmed, not total per 100k population.
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Old 06-21-17, 07:46 PM
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US lyme incidence rate trend

Originally Posted by Rob_E
I'm not seeing what you're seeing. The graphs show the number of cases total. Not cases adjusted for population growth. There is a table showing population adjusted data for 2005 to 2015. The last row is for the whole US. No real change in 10 years. Same for NC.
Apologies; I didn't look carefully enough. Check out
https://www.epa.gov/sites/production..._lyme_2016.pdf
the first "key point" of Page 2:



"The incidence of Lyme disease in the United States has approximately doubled since 1991, from 3.74 reported cases per 100,000 people to 7.95 reported cases per 100,000 people in 2014 (see Figure 1)."
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Old 06-21-17, 07:48 PM
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mstateglfr & Rob E: The trend in #s of cases will not differ that much from the trend in incidence rate, because human population of the Northeast US, where most cases occur, is not changing that much.
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Old 06-21-17, 08:27 PM
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For what it's worth, I do believe the climate is changing, and have no problem believing there could be consequences like increasing the habitat range of deer tick.

And maybe it's already happening.

But the EPA link provided echoes what's already been said in this thread: a warming weather trend is unlikely to increase incidence in NC where it's already warmer than the states with the number of cases.

Evidence suggests that expanding ranges of ticks in certain northern states may be more related to a warming climate than expanding ranges in southern states. Because of the many factors affecting tick populations and reporting of Lyme disease, however, this indicator does not provide sufficient information to determine what proportion of the observed changes in Lyme disease incidence is directly driven by climate change.
And the basic question remains: what precautions to take? I think the precautions are pretty well laid out. Doubled incidence over 20 years sounds scary. But, frankly, 8 people per 100,000 vs 4 people per 100,000 doesn't make me want to shave off all my hair and sound the alarm bells. On the other hand, I do shave my head, but that's just because if I don't, it looks like I'm going bald (which is because I'm going bald).

Do what makes you feel safe, but I would say the precautions to take remain the same: cover your skin in tick-heavy areas, use bug repellent, and remove ticks promptly. Good luck.
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Old 06-21-17, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by hartlean
mstateglfr & Rob E: The trend in #s of cases will not differ that much from the trend in incidence rate, because human population of the Northeast US, where most cases occur, is not changing that much.
Hey, i just got involved because i decided to click on your link backkng up your claim and it didnt in any way back up your claim.

I havent disagreed with you, i am quite sure incidents have increased per capita.
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Old 06-22-17, 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
Prophylactic antibiotics is a poor option. Tick bite and subsequent Lyme disease is a relatively low odds event. However overuse of antibiotics is a real problem, and a poor trade off.

Odds are it won't buy you much in the way of prevention or lower doses later, because dosing to treat Lyme is pretty high and no reasonable doctor is going to do that unless necessary.
The CDC only suggests a prophylactic dose in certain cases: ie. if the tick has been feeding for more than 36 hours. www.cdc.gov/ticks/tickbornediseases When I am home I can talk to my doctor about a tick bite. But what does one do if you have a tick bite while on tour in a region that is underserved by doctors?
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Old 06-22-17, 04:39 AM
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I was having a cocktail with Al Gore last night. He admitted to me that The Internet that he created is what caused global warming, but Clinton is solely responsible for Lyme Disease.
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Old 06-22-17, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by NoControl
I was having a cocktail with Al Gore last night. He admitted to me that The Internet that he created is what caused global warming, but Clinton is solely responsible for Lyme Disease.
Lol! +1...both are a complete joke!
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Old 06-22-17, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by ironwood
The CDC only suggests a prophylactic dose in certain cases: ie. if the tick has been feeding for more than 36 hours. www.cdc.gov/ticks/tickbornediseases When I am home I can talk to my doctor about a tick bite. But what does one do if you have a tick bite while on tour in a region that is underserved by doctors?
If you have a cooperative doctor, who's willing to trust you to adhere to protocols, you might ask for a script for antibiotics, with the understanding that you'll only take them when indicated, ie. you discover a feeding tick.

This is a balancing act between abuse because of excess caution and underprescribing while awaiting confirmation of infection. It's not unreasonable to start a course of antibiotics while awaiting lab results, if there's reasonable suspicion.

Whether you're temperamentally able and willing to adhere to guidelines, is something for you and your doctor to discuss.

However, tick bite and snake bite are very different in terms of urgency. I don't think a few days delay would matter even if bitten by an infected tick. So I'd be more inclined to wait and deal with that situation if and when it arises.
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Old 06-22-17, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
If you have a cooperative doctor, who's willing to trust you to adhere to protocols, you might ask for a script for antibiotics, with the understanding that you'll only take them when indicated, ie. you discover a feeding tick.

This is a balancing act between abuse because of excess caution and underprescribing while awaiting confirmation of infection. It's not unreasonable to start a course of antibiotics while awaiting lab results, if there's reasonable suspicion.

Whether you're temperamentally able and willing to adhere to guidelines, is something for you and your doctor to discuss.

However, tick bite and snake bite are very different in terms of urgency. I don't think a few days delay would matter even if bitten by an infected tick. So I'd be more inclined to wait and deal with that situation if and when it arises.
When I lived in Kansas I got a tick bite on my abdomen that developed an area of swelling and a distinct ring the size of a dinner plate within hours, a doctor took one look and put me on the most awful regimen of antibiotics I have ever been on. Was terribly feeble and sick within a day, not sure if from the meds or some fast acting infection it was fighting. Was so fevered and ill that I set a tent up in my living room, made a cardboard vent from the window unit AC , and lay in it sweating for days. Friends brought me food.
The tick was sent in for testing, and came back "undetermined". This was 15 years ago, I was lucky that the doctor I went to was familiar with tick born infections. He suspected Rocky Mountain Spotted fever.

Within the couple of decades or so ticks have exploded in population in the Ozarks. A lot of that is due to a lack of controlled undergrowth burn offs within that time. When camping in state lands that still have burns, ticks are fairly rare. Elsewhere you can get them on you walking in the driveway.
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