Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Touring Have a dream to ride a bike across your state, across the country, or around the world? Self-contained or fully supported? Trade ideas, adventures, and more in our bicycle touring forum.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-11-17, 01:34 AM   #1
Popoontheroad
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Bikes:
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
First touring bike (yes, again!)

Hi guys,

I am an ex motorcyclist and traveling since a few years. Now, don't ask me why, I have decided to do my next trips on a bicycle and here I am asking more or less the usual newbie questions (yes, I am using the "search" function as well).

Being this my first bike, I am not going to spend much on it. I have already checked Decathlon bikes (although many are suggesting e to stay away) and also some Torpados, which have quite the same price.

What do you guys think of the T830 compared to Decathlon bikes (btw, do you actually have Decathlon in US?)?

I am also looking into second hand bikes to find an old rigid MTB or who knows. I am actually still unsure about the rigid fork although everyone tells me that springs will make hills climbing harder.

If you have any suggestion, please don't hesitate.

Building a bike would probably get more costly, but I don't want o disregard any option (and I must say that I enjoy mechanics). What would be the price of a full Shimano setup (maybe Deore or lower end 3x9?) to be put o a used bike?
Popoontheroad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-17, 04:44 AM   #2
NoControl 
Look Ma! No Hands!
 
NoControl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: New Hampshire
Bikes: Surly ECR, 1953 Dunelt
Posts: 815
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 453 Post(s)
Welcome to BF!

I'm a huge fan of rebuilding the old rigid MTBs, and I do several a year. Doing this will create a really great bike for what it would cost you to buy a mediocre stock touring bike. Spend a lot of money on the very best wheels and hubs you can get. You can pick and choose your components and gearing, and racks.

-or-

Buy a new touring frame and start from there. I recently built a Surly ECR, but now I'm considering an Ogre.

-but-

If I were to buy an off-the-shelf touring bike, I'd go with a Salsa Marrakesh.

Just my opinions, so take them at face value.
__________________
"I have never been lost, but I will admit to being confused for several weeks" -Daniel Boone
NoControl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-17, 05:31 AM   #3
Trevtassie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Down Under
Bikes: A steel framed 26" off road tourer from a manufacturer who thinks they are cool. Giant Anthem. Trek 720 Multiroad pub bike. 10 kids bikes all under 20". Assorted waifs and unfinished projects.
Posts: 759
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 173 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoControl View Post
Welcome to BF!

I'm a huge fan of rebuilding the old rigid MTBs, and I do several a year. Doing this will create a really great bike for what it would cost you to buy a mediocre stock touring bike. Spend a lot of money on the very best wheels and hubs you can get. You can pick and choose your components and gearing, and racks.

-or-

Buy a new touring frame and start from there. I recently built a Surly ECR, but now I'm considering an Ogre.

-but-

If I were to buy an off-the-shelf touring bike, I'd go with a Salsa Marrakesh.

Just my opinions, so take them at face value.
An old steel MTB is an excellent choice for a first bike. Look for a non suspended top end steel model so you get decent wheels and gears to start with. Front racks can be mounted with P clamps or brake pivot mounts.
My first long tour was on a 1991 steel mountain bike, my second used the same gear mounted on a 1997 steel bike. You don't need top end stuff, mid range works great. I recently serviced my partners Tiagra hub (re-spaced to 135mm) after 6000km and the cups and cones looked like new. The Alex adventurer rims I used cost US$25 each.
Trevtassie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-17, 06:00 AM   #4
NoControl 
Look Ma! No Hands!
 
NoControl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: New Hampshire
Bikes: Surly ECR, 1953 Dunelt
Posts: 815
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 453 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevtassie View Post
You don't need top end stuff, mid range works great.
Agreed, Trev. I think I was just trying to say that you could get some really good stuff for a bike build and save some cash over a bike off the shelf.

I like Trek 900-series frames, and the Gary Fisher equivalent. I also like the Specialized Hardrock and Rockhopper if I can get them big enough. I'll also consider the plain-jane Giants and GTs, although I'm not a huge fan of the GT frame aesthetically. Basically any quality steel mtb frame will do. Look for a frame that was kept inside and not rusty around the holes in the frame. No dents. Dents mean the possibility of a bent frame.

If the paint is gross, it costs me $100 for a media-blast and any color of powder coat I choose. I try to keep the headbadge, or buy decals for that model just to make it appear that someone cared about it. It makes a huge difference when you go to resell it. Lately, I've been brazing-on disc brake bosses and then sending them out for powdercoat.
__________________
"I have never been lost, but I will admit to being confused for several weeks" -Daniel Boone
NoControl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-17, 06:14 AM   #5
52telecaster
ambulatory senior
 
52telecaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Peoria Il
Bikes: Bob Jackson World Tour and schwinn le tour iii
Posts: 1,103
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 350 Post(s)
sounds like your on the right track. just let me echo the no suspension fork sentiment. pulling long hills will convince you you dont need one. anyway if you load the bike down with enough gear it will ride pretty smooth.
52telecaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-17, 06:23 AM   #6
andrewclaus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Golden, CO, Scottsdale, AZ
Bikes: 1996 REI Randonee, 1983 Trek 620
Posts: 1,135
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 110 Post(s)
Ditto the above. The recycle shop I work at just saw a Trek 930 yesterday, a joy to turn that one around.

Personally I can't tour with straight bars, and bar extensions help only a little.

If you live in a place with a lot of Craigslist postings, there may be an excellent 90s touring bike, 21 or 24 speed, for under $300 ready to go with a little maintenance. Learn the difference between freewheel and freehub, and stay away from the former.
andrewclaus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-17, 07:23 AM   #7
jefnvk
Senior Member
 
jefnvk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Metro Detroit
Bikes: 2016 Novara Mazama
Posts: 5,763
Mentioned: 43 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2275 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Popoontheroad View Post
Being this my first bike, I am not going to spend much on it. I have already checked Decathlon bikes (although many are suggesting e to stay away) and also some Torpados, which have quite the same price.

What do you guys think of the T830 compared to Decathlon bikes (btw, do you actually have Decathlon in US?)?

I am also looking into second hand bikes to find an old rigid MTB or who knows. I am actually still unsure about the rigid fork although everyone tells me that springs will make hills climbing harder.
I assume you mean this Torpado? How much is it? T830

If I were buying a new bike, I wouldn't want one with a freewheel, which that has. Other than that, it would be a low end, ready to go option. There is really nothing about that bike that would be better than buying an old rigid MTB and building it to how you want it.

We don't have Decathlons here, but from what I understand they are similar to our Dick's Sporting Goods, where you can get a basic bike in a shop that sells everything from fishing gear to golf to track and field and more. If so, it would vary quite a bit depending on exactly which offering you were looking at.

Don't worry about the rigid fork. Unless you are doing a LOT of rough roads, front suspension is more trouble than it is worth. If you use an old MTB, the larger tires will take care of your dampening needs. I am in agreement with the others, who say out of the options you have listed, rebuilding an old rigid MTB is the preferred course of action.
jefnvk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-17, 07:32 PM   #8
Trevtassie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Down Under
Bikes: A steel framed 26" off road tourer from a manufacturer who thinks they are cool. Giant Anthem. Trek 720 Multiroad pub bike. 10 kids bikes all under 20". Assorted waifs and unfinished projects.
Posts: 759
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 173 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewclaus View Post
Ditto the above. The recycle shop I work at just saw a Trek 930 yesterday, a joy to turn that one around.

Personally I can't tour with straight bars, and bar extensions help only a little.

If you live in a place with a lot of Craigslist postings, there may be an excellent 90s touring bike, 21 or 24 speed, for under $300 ready to go with a little maintenance. Learn the difference between freewheel and freehub, and stay away from the former.
That's when you whack on a set of Butterflies or Crazy Bars. I'm really liking the Crazy Bars. Cheap as chips and the wide spacing seems really nice for touring. The expensive bit is the Ergon GC1 grips, which work really, really well... Butterflies are an excellent option and even cheaper. I go a little weird with them though, I like to angle them down at the front so it changes your back angle, and thus stresses different muscles in your wrists. If you get them in the right place you can use the back bars as a wrist rest. Only thing I find is that most are a little narrow.

As for suspension, a set of 2" Mondials or Marathons will do the trick. I've run them as low as 25psi fully loaded for bear on gravel roads.
Trevtassie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-17, 04:46 AM   #9
Popoontheroad
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Bikes:
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Guys, thanks to all of you for the replies.

I am indeed looking for a second-hand MTB frame, although I won't be able to assess the quality unless I post pics here.

Otherwise, I am also looking at brand new bikes and I noticed these Holdsworth. Did any of you have any experience with them?

I think the most interesting options are the Stelvio and the Kaffenback from the same shop. They are not dead expensive and seem to tick all the boxes.

If I was to build from an oldMTB frame, how do I check the compatibility with the full transmission group (I guess I will look for some Shimano cassette and chainset)? Do i just need the frame's hole diameter?
Popoontheroad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-17, 06:01 AM   #10
andrewclaus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Golden, CO, Scottsdale, AZ
Bikes: 1996 REI Randonee, 1983 Trek 620
Posts: 1,135
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 110 Post(s)
The Stelvio (didn't see the other) has fairly light wheels and a higher gear range than most touring bikes you see around here. I'd consider that for light weight touring, with a max load of 10 kg or so, and if you're a fairly strong climber and/or in flat terrain.

A recent warmshowers guest showed up with a brand new Cannondale with a low touring range and triple chain ring, disk brakes, and she said she got it for about US$800

Internet research (Sheldon Brown) will be needed for compatibility of old components. Rear shifter and derailleur are usually most critical. Some older SRAM will work with some Shimano, some will not, for instance. Sometimes, if the stuff's cheap enough, just try it and see. Not sure what the "frame's hole diameter" is. A new front derailleur will need the seat tube diameter. Replacing front crank and rear wheel may require checking dropout spacing and chain line, and may need a new bottom bracket with different spindle length.

Often many of these components are in great shape on an old bike and do not need replacing. You may just need new chain and cog cassette, bottom bracket cassette, overhaul other bearings, new cables and housings and brake shoes, true the wheels, add the pedals of your choice and it's good. Use eBay to replace old shifters if needed.
andrewclaus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-17, 07:08 AM   #11
Trevtassie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Down Under
Bikes: A steel framed 26" off road tourer from a manufacturer who thinks they are cool. Giant Anthem. Trek 720 Multiroad pub bike. 10 kids bikes all under 20". Assorted waifs and unfinished projects.
Posts: 759
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 173 Post(s)
Rather than build up an old MTB frame, find a good whole bike if you can. You can use most of the bits to get started, basically modern trekking parts are previous generations top end MTB stuff.
Trevtassie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-17, 08:37 AM   #12
Trevtassie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Down Under
Bikes: A steel framed 26" off road tourer from a manufacturer who thinks they are cool. Giant Anthem. Trek 720 Multiroad pub bike. 10 kids bikes all under 20". Assorted waifs and unfinished projects.
Posts: 759
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 173 Post(s)
Something in the style of this but a bit newer. https://www.gumtree.com/p/bicycles/s...der/1260858940
Or this https://www.gumtree.com/p/bicycles/h...ike/1257817837
This would be my pick of a brief browse in the UK https://www.gumtree.com/p/bicycles/d...ike/1260853414
Trevtassie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-17, 09:09 AM   #13
ironwood
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Boston area
Bikes: 1984 Bridgestone 400 1985Univega nouevo sport 650b conversion 1993b'stone RBT 1985 Schwinn Tempo
Posts: 1,347
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 195 Post(s)
I'm assuming you are in Europe. There were Decatholon stores in the US but the US operation was closed years ago. Decathalon used to sell some good traditional bikes that would be good touring bikes, but I don't care for their present offerings, which is not to say that you couldn't tour on some of them. You can tour on practically any bike.
ironwood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-17, 12:32 PM   #14
DanBell
Senior Member
 
DanBell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: On the road...
Bikes: Co-Motion Divide
Posts: 345
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Regarding the Holdsworth and the Kaffenback, I have ordered lots of items from planet x over the years and they've always been high quality at good prices. I have often turned over the idea of ordering a Kaffenback for a commuter/light tourer but never pulled the trigger. I've heard good things about the On One Pompino from the single speed crowd too (just to remark on the quality of their products, not that it's a bike suitable for your plans).

So while I can't speak with direct experience of the frames you're looking at, my experience with planet x in general is that the value and quality are top notch.
DanBell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-17, 01:18 AM   #15
Popoontheroad
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Bikes:
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanBell View Post
I've heard good things about the On One Pompino from the single speed crowd too (just to remark on the quality of their products, not that it's a bike suitable for your plans).
Yes, I noticed that bike on the site, but mainly for its name. Check out what it means in Italian...
Popoontheroad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-17, 03:34 AM   #16
saddlesores
Senior Member
 
saddlesores's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bangkok!
Bikes: inferior steel
Posts: 2,374
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 435 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Popoontheroad View Post
Yes, I noticed that bike on the site, but mainly for its name. Check out what it means in Italian...
shirley don't want one of those, i hear they really suck...


oh, misread your screenname.
thought i was back in china!
saddlesores is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-17, 11:26 AM   #17
bicyclridr4life
Bicyclerider4life
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Florida and Idaho
Bikes: Huffy Beach Cruisers, Miami Sun Trike, Vertical PK7, KHS Montana Summit, Giant Cypress DX, Schwinn OCC Stingray
Posts: 837
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewclaus View Post
Learn the difference between freewheel and freehub, and stay away from the former.
Why?
Freewheels are cheap to replace and are available just about everywhere.

Freewheel hubs have bearings supporting the ends of the hubs. You're less likely to break or bend an axle.

Freewheels were used for at least 75 to 100 and counting, on everything from recreational bikes, touring specific bikes, to high end professional racing bikes.
bicyclridr4life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-17, 12:06 PM   #18
andrewclaus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Golden, CO, Scottsdale, AZ
Bikes: 1996 REI Randonee, 1983 Trek 620
Posts: 1,135
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 110 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicyclridr4life View Post
Why?...Freewheel hubs have bearings supporting the ends of the hubs. You're less likely to break or bend an axle....
That's the opposite of my experience and knowledge. The drive side bearing in a freewheel hub is actually set back from the frame dropout. I rebuild a lot of those bikes and I replace a lot of axles. Freehubs solved that problem.

That's the only reason I don't like freewheels. I see a lot of them seized up, but that's mainly because the ones I see are on cheap bikes that are neglected and left outside.
andrewclaus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-17, 05:19 PM   #19
jefnvk
Senior Member
 
jefnvk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Metro Detroit
Bikes: 2016 Novara Mazama
Posts: 5,763
Mentioned: 43 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2275 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewclaus View Post
That's the opposite of my experience and knowledge. The drive side bearing in a freewheel hub is actually set back from the frame dropout. I rebuild a lot of those bikes and I replace a lot of axles. Freehubs solved that problem.

That's the only reason I don't like freewheels. I see a lot of them seized up, but that's mainly because the ones I see are on cheap bikes that are neglected and left outside.
While I agree on the them being set back further, how much of an issue have people actually had with freewheels because of faulty engineering, not poor maintenance?

The only time I've had any sort of axle issue, it was on a freehub. I refuse to use my one experience as anecdote, but how did people get around before freehubs, barring absolutely ridiculous trips?

(but yeah, if buying a new bike, I wouldn't go freewheel)

Last edited by jefnvk; 08-13-17 at 05:23 PM.
jefnvk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-17, 04:10 AM   #20
Popoontheroad
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Bikes:
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewclaus View Post
The Stelvio (didn't see the other) has fairly light wheels and a higher gear range than most touring bikes you see around here. I'd consider that for light weight touring, with a max load of 10 kg or so, and if you're a fairly strong climber and/or in flat terrain.

Not sure what the "frame's hole diameter" is. A new front derailleur will need the seat tube diameter.
Hey, thanks to everyone for your help guys!

Andrewclaus, you are right, I didn't make myself very clear talking about "holes", but still learning the technical terms; the "hole" I mentioned is the bottom bracket.

What gear range would you suggest instead of the Stelvio's one?

Do you think the wheels are quite light cause of the number of spokes?
Popoontheroad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-17, 05:32 AM   #21
mstateglfr
Senior Member
 
mstateglfr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Bikes: '87 Miyata 912, '80 Schwinn Voyageur 11.8, '90 Fuji Saratoga, '90 Diamondback Ascent EX, Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4
Posts: 5,451
Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1533 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicyclridr4life View Post
Why?
Freewheels are cheap to replace and are available just about everywhere.

Freewheel hubs have bearings supporting the ends of the hubs. You're less likely to break or bend an axle.

Freewheels were used for at least 75 to 100 and counting, on everything from recreational bikes, touring specific bikes, to high end professional racing bikes.

The reason why(one of) bikes went to freehubs is due to higher strength.
135mm axle and a feeewheel meant more rear wheels broke on mountain bikes due to the inherent rough use.
Freehubs are stronger due to being a smaller distance between weigh bearijg points. Sorta like a short vs long bridge. Thats a crude example, but its an easy visual.
mstateglfr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-17, 06:14 AM   #22
andrewclaus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Golden, CO, Scottsdale, AZ
Bikes: 1996 REI Randonee, 1983 Trek 620
Posts: 1,135
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 110 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Popoontheroad View Post
Hey, thanks to everyone for your help guys!

Andrewclaus, you are right, I didn't make myself very clear talking about "holes", but still learning the technical terms; the "hole" I mentioned is the bottom bracket.

What gear range would you suggest instead of the Stelvio's one?

Do you think the wheels are quite light cause of the number of spokes?
Sheldon Brown's website is full of details such as available bottom bracket diameters, widths, and threading. Good explanations about freewheel vs freehub, too.

Most touring bikes have a triple front crank with a "granny gear" in the 20 to 30 tooth range. Most rear cogs are available with at least 28 teeth, sometimes, more, giving a low gear ratio of under 1:1. It's hard to sustain a walking pace with a ratio lower than that. Most tourers don't seem to care much about the upper end, since they (we) usually don't pedal downhill.

That said, you don't absolutely have to have a bike with a triple front crank to tour. Many of us (most of my generation) started on old steel ten speeds.

Yes, spoke count is an indication of the wheel's weight and strength. Most traditional touring bikes have 36 or more spokes per wheel. But many tour on lighter wheels, depending on load, surface, terrain, and quality of wheel.
andrewclaus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-17, 10:22 AM   #23
Popoontheroad
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Bikes:
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Hey guys,

Do you think 130 is too much for this one? It's aluminium though.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg TREK.jpg (55.5 KB, 136 views)
Popoontheroad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-17, 06:57 PM   #24
Arvadaman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Bikes:
Posts: 303
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Good bike but I think the price is a little steep. I would bargain or continue looking.
Arvadaman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-17, 03:21 AM   #25
Popoontheroad
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Bikes:
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
It has been sold.

Now I am looking into this one:



IT's a Specialized Stumpjumper (have no idea about what model year). It should be the right size, but I still have to see it first. Anyway, the guy asks 100 and it's too much for me. Do you think 50 would be an unreal offer for this bike?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg BIKE 2.jpg (79.1 KB, 116 views)
Popoontheroad is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:14 PM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    get answers from real people!
Click to start entering your question.
I HAVE A QUESTION