eaglegamma

A few of us were discussing bike touring community, and I started a wiki!
Please check it out, whether you are a seasoned vet, an occasional tourer, or just curious!

DropBarFan

Looks like an interesting project; there's lots of bike touring info but scattered about a lot--a centralized source could be very useful. OTOH making the wiki a go-to site sounds like a lot of work. If I had more time & tech-savvy I'd create an online saddle database: saddles seem to be #1 debate topic for cyclists & there doesn't appear to be something like that already.

Brian25

This is great. I would like to see it divided between credit card touring and self contained/fully loaded type touring. I wish the crazy guy on a bike website had done that.

eaglegamma

Agree that getting it to be a known source poses a challenge. Any tips?

If you're interested in pursuing that saddle database idea (and I consider the seat to be the most important part of a bicycle, so I can see that being a hot topic), I've got an idea and the tech savvy...

eaglegamma

Thank you!

Why would you want that division? While some of the info will of course only be relevant to one or the other group, I believe that most bike touring info is relevant to both. In fact, you can switch back and forth seamlessly between staying in hotels and eating out vs. wild camping and eating simply. So I'm curious why would you want to have that separation?

Brian25

You thanked me, to me that does mean that you may actually value my personal opinion. So with no more fanfare here goes: I feel as though A) fully loaded touring is much more difficult. I found out first hand when I tried my first tour in the early eighty's. B)Riding a bike from hotel to hotel, in my opinion takes so much of the challenge of at least what I call bike touring. I just like to check out people who are up for the more challenging type of touring. Of coarse that is just me maybe you could take a poll, to see if that is relevant.

eaglegamma

Yes, I do value your personal opinion. I agree that self-supported touring is a whole different ball game, in terms of riding. However, wouldn't someone on a credit card tour still have much the same questions about bicycles, locations, and such? I get that some of the info will differ, e.g. someone exclusively staying at hotels doesn't need to know about free camping, but I feel like it's easier and more convenient for everyone to share a common base, and that we just don't pay attention to the few parts irrelevant to us. Of course, I tend towards inclusiveness.

fietsbob

not a computer programmer looks like its all your opinions..

DropBarFan

For saddle database, folks could enter fields like brand, model, width, comfort ratings, durability rating & misc note etc. AFAIK not too complicated. Perhaps something similar for bikes, equipment etc. A route/accommodations db would be a bit trickier I guess; perhaps easier to just have lists divided by region/CC vs loaded/off vs on-road--contributors could write the detailed info in a big text field? Also, many folks have already written trip/route etc reports on BF, CGOAB etc so I'm not sure how many would be motivated to repost on a new site.

Another general problem Wiki problem is that getting bike tourists to agree is like herding cats. Perhaps an editor community of experienced tourists could cover the general topics? For a start, you could add a bunch of links to reputable sites. Whew, hope you have a lot of spare time, this thing could mean a lot of work!

eaglegamma

It's not all my opinions, although since I'm the one providing the initial input it of course leans heavily towards my opinions. Or did you expect me to use someone else's opinions?

eaglegamma

Regarding the parts database, I feel like a lot of the underlying data already exist in vendor databases (e.g. Amazon), and what tourers would benefit from is simple comparisons and explanations relevant to them. It would be possible to create e.g. a relational database or semantic website to store those data, but that's a fairly big new can of worms for data that I'm not sure people need to compare computationally.
Instead, I feel like an elaboration of the wiki to incorporate a developing list and analysis of the saddle options (and other bike part, and route/regions) would suffice, at least to start. I created a wiki page, which now describes bike seats, comfort info, and the main types. How does this mesh with what you want? Can you think of anything else that would help it?

Agree that a lot of people have already written detailed trip reports here and elsewhere. I don't think a wiki should aim to replicate that, or even to get people to repost. Rather, it should absorb condensed lessons on places and bikes from those sources, and link to them. (I've already been adding lots of links to the big sites.) So, instead of wading through thousands of pages of mostly personal reminiscences to find out what you need to know about a place or bike, you can simply learn from the key summarizations from a variety of sources, and as appropriate delve into those sources.
Yeah, I think what you wrote in the last paragraph is quite true. I do think that at first it should involve a core of experienced tourers laying down the basics, and then add in various improvements from a broader base.

fietsbob

People input here to give you inputs , to add , there?

Happy Feet

I agree with this more or less.

It's not about one being better than the other but the needs and techniques for loaded touring are far different than CC touring. Choice of bike, distance, supplies etc... Probably half the battles here come when someone from one perspective says you don't need that to someone from the other.

Brian25

Is your reading English ability o.k. . Please tell me where in my paragraph where I said that one type of touring "is better" than the other. Did you have more than a 5th grade education?

Happy Feet

Whoa there Napoleon, no one said you said anything. Just talking about my POV.

Save your insults and go pick an advanced educational fight with someone else

mstateglfr 

mrv 

How will a Wiki be better / an improvement over https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/ ?

Seems like CrazyGuy pretty much covers anything touring related you'd ever care about.
(just curious, not trying to start an online fight with anybody or anything...... )

eaglegamma

Good question. I asked myself that before starting, and my answer is that it condenses that type of info all into a far more useful form. CrazyGuy is great for diving into the details of many people's rides and individual preferences (and it has a great site name). Let's say you want a flavor of Jim and Fran's bike trip across the US in 2012, well you can read about all the hilarious hijinx they had, and see their trip photos. You can also get someone's personal recommendation for stove fuel in Europe, or see who's looking for ride partners in Colorado. But let's say that instead you just want to quickly learn the main suggestions for how to cross the USA, or which stove fuel to use in Europe. It would be very difficult to prune through thousands of pages of diaries, forum comments, and such. Much easier just to browse directly to a community-curated summary of the top knowledge on each topic.

Lots of different groups have a site for discussions/forums, blogs/diaries, etc., and also a wiki. It serves a different purpose. Instead of spread-out streams of thought from a bunch of individuals, it brings together info into a shared resource that efficiently provides topical messages.

How does that jive with you? Does that convince you of its merit, or do you still think it needs a greater differentiation from CG?

eaglegamma

If I understand you correctly, that's just one way that info can get added. For now since it's my initiative I'm adding my own thoughts plus other people's thoughts from elsewhere. However if you or anyone else is interested, you're welcome to add directly. It's simple, whether adding or editing, you can just go ahead and make changes - the strength of the wiki. You don't even need a user account!

eaglegamma

While I agree that there's a big difference between the two, I don't think it's hard and fast. It's quite possible to combine the two.

Happy Feet

Well sure you could and I suspect many people do but the difference between loaded self supported touring and supported or CC touring is defined enough to create two separate categories.

If you ask what type of bike you need for each you will get two answers.
One looks for available diners, the other grocery stores.
One available camp sites, the other hotels...

I had this demonstrated on my Columbia Icefield tour this summer. The difference between those doing it loaded and self supported vs those doing it as part of a supported CC experience was striking.

eaglegamma

OK, but it's entirely possible to hybridize both (like the bikes!). I've gone to diners and restaurants on the same trip, and traveled with people on very different bikes, budgets, and mindsets. I'm not denying your point that there are two different groups. I just think that they're parts of the same continuum, and not THAT far apart. To me it seems like 80-90% of bike touring info is relevant to both. After all, today's self-supported tourer is often tomorrow's CC tourer.

Bike Forum, Crazy Guy, Warm Showers, Reddi, etc., all have a "bike touring" theme. It seems like HOW you do it is an internal division, rather than apples-and-oranges completely different categories...

Happy Feet

OK whatever.

Originally I was agreeing with Brian that touring perspectives tend to get divided between loaded and CC with most info not pertaining to one or the other. Someone will talk about an LHT being a good example of a tour bike and someone else will say a carbon road bike is. After much back and forth it comes out one is talking loaded touring and the other CC. Add as many other examples as needed here [ ]. Just what I've read over and over.

Generally speaking most topics are not the same between the two. One (generally) has an overarching philosophy of self sufficiency in areas beyond the bicycle while the other is about comfort while off the bike as well as the bikes themselves being different. The people who were loaded camping on my last trip were setting up tents and cooking on stoves at the end of the day while those doing the CC tour were sitting n the lounge of the hotel.

Another good division would be road touring and bikepacking.

Seems pretty easy to understand the difference. If you want to argue that it's all the same and not differentiate that's cool, it's your site. Just be aware that there will be many disagreements because someone doing one style will be telling someone doing the other they do or don't agree with what is being said. And most of that friction will come from defining the parameters of the type of tour being discussed.

axolotl

I don't think there's a huge difference between fully loaded touring and CC touring. I saw this first-hand on a recent CC tour in SW France, an area where I had done a fully-loaded tour more than 2 decades ago. One of my friends with me on the recent tour was also with me on the loaded tour years ago. We don't have a different touring bike for whether it's fully loaded or not. We use the same rear panniers and handlebar bag. (I've never used front panniers on either type of touring.) Picnic breakfast & lunch on both. Constant washing of clothes on both. Same criteria for picking routes on both. We visited the same types of sites on both trips. But on the recent trip, instead of camping & youth hostels, it was small hotels & airbnb. And instead of cooking our dinners, we enjoyed the superb food served in restaurants in that region.

Now, if CC touring to you means an organized trip with an outfitter which carries your gear, pre-selects your routes, accommodations and meals, then yes, that's a very different type of tour from a fully-loaded tour with camping, or the version of CC touring we just did.

Happy Feet

It seems you repeated a tour you had done previously.

Let's look at this a different way.

I am planning two trips across Europe. One will be loaded and as much as possible self supported. I will camp and cook for myself as much as possible. My gear will weigh about 30lb's. The second will be a CC tour with minimal gear, eating in cafes and sleeping in hotels. My gear will be minimal. For the best or optimal experience in each case what should I bring for:

A bicycle.
Sleeping gear.
Cooking gear.