whenever I do a rag clean of a chain, I always do a quick chainring wipe down of the three rings, a quick "rag squeeze" clean of both jockey wheels, derailleur exteriors, and then a "rag floss" of the cassette. Does a great job of all the various parts, including the chain, and all I have to do is bring an old shirt rag with me, and or pick up the invariable clean looking lost shirt at the side of the road at some point so I have another one if the first one gets too grotty.

all that to say is that keeping the drivetrain clean with some elbow, well finger, grease, does a great job and keeps the "eroding gritty gunk" off all the parts that its best not to have the stuff on.

and like with any cleaning, if you do it regularly, its super fast to do. Let the gunk build up and then it takes a lot more time to deal with.

I replace my chain when I need a filler to get free shipping.

That's what I thought until I kept passing all these Texaco stations with free paper towels ( located just above the windshield squeegee). :):):)

I'll use paper towels at times, but it can't match cloth for really hard use and cassette flossing without tearing or ripping. Plus it's faster and I'm lazy so just want it done quickly.

problem here is that the two parts of the chain are not subjected to the
same conditions independently. the gunk on the dirty chain will spread to
the cassette and to the clean chain. not knowing the specifics of the lube
used, could be allowing more and bigger grit particles onto the bearing
surfaces of the clean chain while the dirty chains "pores" are blocked. so
the grit carried by the dirty chain is constantly being fed into the clean one.
plus there is the combined effect of (at least) three grinding processes that
may work at different rates, with no understanding of the relationship: dirty
chain bearing surfaces, clean chain bearing surfaces, cassette cogs....

i'd be more inclined to take it seriously if two identical drivetrains were put
together in a sealed environmental enclosure and subjected to identical
conditions, with one cleaned at specific intervals, as a starting point.

I agree that would be a more convincing experiment - but with a real world rather than sealed enclosure). But much harder to conduct unless you have a second rider willing to go on all the same rides and then switching off who has the dirty chains so the effect of any difference in riding style/weight/etc. can be evaluated. That's hard to arrange over the 5000 or more miles to do the experiment so I'm not hopeful anyone will volunteer to conduct it.

While the experiment that was done suffers from the cleaned chain picking up grit from the cog and chain wheel teeth it still seems to me that it should show some of the benefit from cleaning. The fact that no benefit at all was shown and in fact there was faster wear is pretty convincing to me until I'm shown some different results from either an equivalent or better controlled experiment.

education is the answer.
 

Chain wear. It’s something mentioned all too often in bicycle maintenance guides, but rarely correctly understood.

Bicycle chain wear explained - BikeRadar

chain checkers are not equal
"These are dependent on hand pressure to take a reading and, depending on how much pressure that is, they can be way off.

[Yes these gauges are affected by roller diameter variances, but I'd much rather replace a chain that's suspected of wear than replace an entire drivetrain later on.]

"The likes of KMC, SRAM, Park Tool and Abbey Bike Tools all agree that the 0.5 percent marking on most chain checkers is a safe point to replace the chain before cassette wear becomes an issue. You can push it out toward the 0.75 percent, but you risk overcooking the situation depending on the checker."

_______________------------------------------------------------------------------------_____________________
"Remember, using a chain beyond its intended wear limit will prematurely wear out your cogs and chainrings so staying on top of this routine maintenance task can save you a lot of cost and hassle in the long run."
https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair...icle-section-5

I fully agree. Last summer I rode to Argentina. 8000+ miles. I added lube every few days and wiped off the excess. I replaced the chain in Panama, replaced chain, cassette and chainrings in Peru. I had zero issues with the drivetrain the length of the trip.

I can't see how carrying an extra chain or spending time deep cleaning the chain would have had any positive impact on my trip.

Curious about how you crossed the Darien Gap. (boat from where to where?)

WRT drivetrain, matter of perspective I guess. Your experience is not unusual (going through a complete drivetrain in less than 10K miles). In my mind, carrying a second chain (which in my case is expected to deliver... probably up to 15K miles) is preferable to hunting for parts. But I can perfectly understand that other people do prefer otherwise.

If it's sufficiently filthy, stop at the nearest WalMart or auto parts store for a can of Brakleen, (the red can) and hose it off with that, then relube with White Lightning appropriate to the riding conditions.

That said, I do it mainly just to cut down on the hand cleaning after having to handle the chain. (Fixing a rear flat or whatever.) If it's not slinging grit and grease, it's just not worth it to try to extend the life of a $10-14 part by a few miles.

so no chain cleaning at all? don't wipe down once a week or once a month?
nothing after a muddy or rainy ride? just ride maintenance-free for 10K?

let's just add this to the "disagreements" thread. :p


worth it to extend the life of the much more expensive cassettes and
chain rings?

I do almost no cleaning and get 10k miles or so out of chains. I do lube every few days and wipe the excess lube off.

Now and then, I have rinsed off with low pressure water rinse or hit a chain with WD40 when it picked up a lot of sand or something, but that has been a fairly rare occurrence and definitely not the norm. I did the wd-40 or the water thing after a wheel dip on the TA and after a stay in Camp 4 in Yosemite on the SC. I think I may have done it once on the ST. The rest of my tours I don't think I did at all.

Around home my MTB does get the water rinse pretty frequently, but I am in sandy Florida and trail ride daily.

For the cassettes and rings, getting external grit off once in a while probably helps. Any aggressive chain cleaning probably doesn't. In any case... My cassettes and rings seem to last a very long time, so I figure my minimal cleaning is good enough. WRT cassette and ring wear the biggest thing is to watch for chain elongation and replace when it hits 1-1/16 - 1-1/8" per 12 links.

staehp, what speeds are your bikes? 7, 8?
I'm fairly certain I've said this before, but as a light guy who doesnt stress a chain much, and who also like you just does the rag thing regularly and lubing as well, I generally reach the 5-6000km mark at about 1/16 with 9 speed stuff, and it was probably a bit more with 7 and 8 speed.

re the 1/16 rule, I have tended to notice a slow but slight "sloppiness" in my shifting when I get at or past the 1/16 mark, and a new chain feels that the shifting sharpens up a bit. Plus I figure given that when I change my chains at that point, the new ones dont skip, so this is why I keep the 1/16 point as my "change to a new chain" point, and in any case, I tend to ride about 4-5000km per year , but over at least two bikes, and the km per bike changes from year to year, so every year or two lets say is still fine for me to do a chain change and worry less about the cassettes or chainrings.

My heavy touring bike that I did the TA and some other loaded tours with has a 9 speed cassette. That is the one that I actually did the best job of keeping track of the mileage on the chain and know that it went about 10k miles.

The bike I did the ST with carrying an ultralight load was a 7 speed, I am less sure of the mileage on that chain since it was spread over different usages over quite a few years. It served in a number of roles between 1990 and now and is currently serving as my adult daughter's commuter.

I have a couple 10 speed bikes but they have less mileage on them and I did a poor job of keeping track of their mileage, so I really don't know with any accuracy how their chains have held up, but my impression is that they seem to be doing okay.

So far my tours have been limited to three this year, 131, 278, and 440 miles respectively. I carried Boeshield with me, and used it after a daily wipedown at camp (or inn). If I do the Southern Tier next year, my plan is to do daily maintenance of this sort with a weekly wash-out with a can of brake cleaner, then relube. I normally do waxxing at home, but its not compatible with being on the road. There are caveats and qualifiers to every method I think. I just choose what I can do at the time, and the reality is that any effort you make towards a cleaner, healthier, lubi-er chain is better than nothing.

Does this say you are carrying a second chain for 15,000 miles? (fifteen thousand.)
Why is it better to change cassette, chainrings, derailleur, and chain all in one day? Why is it not better to change the chain based on the amount of wear, and keep the same cassette and chainrings in good shape? Why not do maintenance? On a touring bike, should not things work properly? Do you wait for a cable to break before you change it? Are the teeth on your derailleur pulleys pointed? Do your brake levers need to be pushed back out manually? Because you do not oil and grease the cable once in a while, or change the housing as needed? Do you know how to fix a flat tire? Can you change your own brake pads?

Why not volunter at a bicycle coop, and learn to fix your bicycle al by yourself?
https://www.bikecollectives.org/wiki...ations#Florida
Or take repair classes at a shop somewhere?

Chains do not last 15,000 miles, they might last 1,500 miles, maybe.
If you fail to maintain your equiptment, your equiptment will fail you.

Do not ride across the Darien Gap go around some how.

I currently rotate two chains. They have 5500+kms and show approximately .25% stretch. So if I were to run the drivetrain to, say, 1.5% stretch, that would translate into 33000kms or 20,000 miles.

I have found that chains don't wear at a steady rate over their life. In my experience they show slow wear for most of their life and then go quickly once they get to a certain point. So it takes a chain most of it's life to reach 12-1/16" for 12 links and then gets to 12-1/8" in a small fraction of that time. As a result I don't really think you can project how long a chain will last by projecting the same rate of wear into the remainder of it's life.

Plausible : the Wipperman expriment showed convex wear rates. On the other hand, ANSI chain manual describes a linear process. One entry in stackexchange suggests a fairly linear process.

Maybe someone will post extensive data. I'll probably not, because I am actually planning to change chains for a fresh set before they stretch above the .75% mark, i.e. before there is significant damage to the cassette.

Stae, it's really good that you bring this up. I believe that I have seen this happen also, and to be honest, this is why I tend to err much more on the side of caution and when I see a chain getting to the 1/16 point, I am concerned that I will forget to check it more regularly and to avoid unneeded wear on the drivetrain, I'll just change the chain.
I figure it's not worth eeking out every last bit if inattention could mean more wear on teeth front and back---basically the traditional view t of why to change chains.

Re your observation, I certainly don't have clear evidence from taking time notes, but I think I've noticed this in the past and been surprised, especially from thinking it would be linear and projecting x kilometres into the future.

I wonder if others have noticed this and if anyone has actually kept notes.

Here's my theory, it's like trying to loosen let's say a pole stuck in the ground. You push and pull on it side to side, for a long time it doesn't loosen. Then you get a little play and it allows you to put more force pushing and pulling, the space widens and as it gets wider you cab fiorce it more and more.

Chain wear won't be the same, but I figure as the bits wear inside, it allows more grit to gather, which does a faster "sanding down" effect, which widens the space, more stuff gets in, etc.

This touches on why I like a thinner chain lube, as I feel it flushes out particulates when I apply it, which I see on my rag when I pass the rag under the chain after I do the one drop per joined section, I also always "turn" the rollers a bit to work the lube in, and to wipe off the extra.
Goes without saying t to wipe chain before applying, or you just transport all the crap down into the innards, just common sense.

Anyway, that's my theory supporting your observation.

Again, very good to bring it up.

If that were true folks would need to swap chains twice on one Trans America. For myself and the folks I rode with on the TA, we all had some mileage on the bikes before the TA, and all rode quite a bit after the TA including several other long-ish tours in some cases. We all were running the same chains for a long time after the TA.

IMO, 15,000 miles is a big ask for a chain, but 1,500 miles is a really short life for a chain.

On another note, I am not sure why but it has seemed to me that chains (and other drivetrain components) wear much faster when used for commuting than for long tours. Maybe mine just get neglected more at home than on tour. That said I don't think I have ever had a chain wear out anywhere near as fast as 1,500 miles even in commuting usage.

I wouldn't be surprised if the typical city streets of a commute have more loose grit on them than the country roads frequently used on long tours. I'm also less likely to be near the debris-strewn edge of the road while touring.

realistically I see many factors coming into play re how long chains last.

-as you say, debris, sand etc that can get onto chains
-does the person allow excess lube to sit on chain, collecting said stuff
-do you have fenders, effectively reducing stuff thrown up onto front chainring area
-how often you lube, how often you keep chain not messy (regular 5 second rag wiping after a days ride)
-do you lube directly onto all the old crap thats accumulated on the chain (I know folks who do this)
-do you wipe down the chainrings and floss the cassette regularly to keep gritty gunk from accumulating, which will come into contact with the chain and teeth.
-how much you ride in the rain
-how much you ride on dirt roads
-what kind of dirt, there is super fine stuff that gets into everything, there is muddy stuff that can go all over....
-are you a grinder, big strong guy putting lots of force into your chain
-how much you cross chain regularly and for long periods

and lets face it, some people just don't ever think of all this stuff, or care.

With me, even with my regular commuting, I have a garage whre I park my bikes and I have teh habit of wiping down and lubing stuff regularly, the same frequency as on tour, or rather to put it a diff way, I observe and react according to the riding conditions Ive been in and have a place that makes it easy to do quick drivetrain maintenance when its needed, perhaps more than someone who parks their bike outside their appartment or in their hallway or stairwell.

A bit late to the party:o. The test that I did in that post was to show that soaking chains in water based "green" mineral spirits wasn't the best idea. Road salts could build up in the water portion and lead to salt cracking of the steel over time. I suspect that any water based cleaner would have similar problems for long term storage.

As a cleaner, however, even soap and water wouldn't have too much detrimental effect on chain longevity. Soap and water is mostly ineffective and inefficient. Mineral spirits requires much less volume and fewer steps.


I wouldn't say that I get more mileage out of my chains than other methods. I just spend less time cleaning...chain, bike, me, anything that the chain comes within 4 country miles of, etc... and less time messing with the chain than most people do. I clean my chains exactly once when I install them. About 3000 miles later, I replace them.

I am convinced that there is less grinding from grit inside the chain because my lubricant of choice doesn't attract and hold the grit but I haven't noticed any significant extension of chain life. I may not get as much life as possible out of the chain but chain life is about average to what others report and I don't spend all my time cleaning up a mess.

These pictures are typical of what my drivetrain looks like all the time. What's not to love?:rolleyes:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4415/...1a01145e_k.jpgIMG_1156 by Stuart Black, on Flickr
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4295/...2fbe18ad_k.jpgIMG_1153 by Stuart Black, on Flickr
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4313/...13b6ed0f_k.jpgIMG_0365 by Stuart Black, on Flickr

You can't really see how clean the chain is in the picture of my orange bike but notice that my chain stay is clean and visible. This is about midway into the chain life. It was taken in July after a winter, spring and summer of riding. More importantly, look at my fingers after handling the chain

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4302/...caaf973b_k.jpg2013-07-26 08.06.29 by Stuart Black, on Flickr

I don't need to wear a hazmat suit to work on my bike. If I have a flat, I'm not going to get grease and crud on everyone within a 3 mile radius either. It's not perfect but it works for me.

As to gauvins' original question, I wouldn't worry about it. Chains are cheap. Ride it. Lube it when it needs it (even oil based lubes need to be refreshed after rain) and, basically, forget about it. Even on a very long tour, I wouldn't obsess over a chain. It's a consumable like brake pads and tires.

Just to clarify, once more, 15 000 miles is what I'd expect for a pair of chains in rotation at or slightly above 1% stretch. That's 7,500 miles per chain.

Thanks for the clarification.

stuart, get a rag floss job on that cassette, its filthy!

and as for carrying an extra chain on a trip, they are so heavy and I can't see going somewhere where I wouldnt be able to find a chain at some point.
I guess on some far off trip done by some folks, but not in the places I have ever toured in.

And in any case, the longest trip I ever did was 3000km and the chain was new at start, and went about 5000km total before I did the preemptive change when it got to the 1/16 mark.

mine was , MSR fuel bottle empty, & rinsed so passed the petrol vapor sniff test ...



:innocent:

I'm calling BS; everybody knows you can't get farther than the end of the driveway with less than a 11 speed cassette mounted to a 14 speed gearhub.

Much more expensive? I run an 8 speed cassette and buy 2-3 at a time when they're $14-15 on eBay. I may replace the crankset next time because I think the right arm is a bit bent, and that's $40, but it's already outlasted two cassettes and two freewheels. (Possibly three freewheels; haven't had to put the old wheel back on since I bought the new ones, so I don't know if it's actually due for replacement.)

I've seen and handled a whole lot worse. It wasn't as dirty as the picture makes it out to be. On the other hand, the chain is clean enough that you can read the brand and model number off it.